Coaching Staff Senior Coach: John Worsfold - Thank you John

BrunoV

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May 5, 2009
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Despite personally thinking we are no hope I would really hope they have not given in yet. Tanking = Carlton results.


Well, a club can delude itelf into thinking it's competitive or it can be a bit too pragmatic and tank and it seems that it will end up in exactly the same spot. Given that we've tried delusion for 15 years, it's probably time to try tanking.

It's the point that is missed in so much of the analysis. 20 - 50 year droughts and periods of mediocrity are not cyclical, especially not for the clubs with the resources that Essendon has.

The simply reality is that the club has not ever let itself come to terms with being mediocre, not for 15 years. It pretends that it's good and this forces the football department to make stupid decisions which it clocks up at a rapid rate.

Carlton finally seems to understand that at some point you need to level with your members and supporters so that they can join in on the ride. It's the pressure release that is necessary to enable everyone to move forward. The irony is, of course, that our onfield performance does not suffer when we change the side (as evidence by the last three matches) so you'd have to be a fool to think that it will cost membership and sponsors.

The concerning thing is that Worsfold was a master tanker at West Coast. Results ebbed and flowed and West Coast seemed always to ride it out. He left Adam Simpson a list that made a GF in two years because of it and that same list is the foundation of the current side. He's chasing results with us when he should be trying to develop a team. That's not good.
 
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BrunoV

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I don't. We know that players like Myers and Baguley are only ever going to be 'keep your head just above water' types, and I think the club would know that.

What I don't think the club has figured out, is whether it wants to approach the remainder of this year with a keep head just above water mentality, or go the full development route.



See my previous post. This is why we're in a rut and why there is no reason to be confident that we'll come out of it any time soon.
 
Well, a club can delude itelf into thinking it's competitive or it can be a bit too pragmatic and tank and it seems that it will end up in exactly the same spot. Given that we've tried delusion for 15 years, it's probably time to try tanking.

It's the point that is missed in so much of the analysis. 20 - 50 year droughts and period of mediocrity are not cyclical, especially not for the clubs with the resources that Essendon has.

The simply reality is that the club has not ever let itself come to terms with being mediocre, not for 15 years. it pretends that it's good and this forces the football department to make stupid decisions. Carlton finally seems to understand that at some point you need to level with your members and supporters so that the can join in on the ride.

I agree to a point. Yes we have tried to hang on too long in the past and stuck with players we should have not but unless you have 2 or 3 wins at half way then you do not give in before then. We lose on Sunday then yes they start looking forward. We have Eagles away and then North after the bye. That will likely finish us off. I have no issue with trying to win this week. Being 5-7 half way is not hopeless.
Our problem is now is unique in the fact that we are in limbo because of what the club created off the field . In some ways it is likely we would have been better served if Hooker went West , If Hurley went where ever and we got picks for them.
The problem is they made some list mistakes at the end of the last 2 seasons. Myers should have only been given 2 years. They should have really kept Bird even though he would have been a 1 year list plug.

The question will be what we do if we beat the Lions but then get put away by the Eagles and North. Giving us 8 games to reward some players who have been doing the right thing in the VFL. With Redmond getting a shot this week it is only really Jake Long out of the form VFL players who has missed out given Francis is only approaching AFL level now.
 
Well, a club can delude itelf into thinking it's competitive or it can be a bit too pragmatic and tank and it seems that it will end up in exactly the same spot. Given that we've tried delusion for 15 years, it's probably time to try tanking.

It's the point that is missed in so much of the analysis. 20 - 50 year droughts and period of mediocrity are not cyclical, especially not for the clubs with the resources that Essendon has.

The simply reality is that the club has not ever let itself come to terms with being mediocre, not for 15 years. it pretends that it's good and this forces the football department to make stupid decisions which it clocks up at a rapid rate.

Carlton finally seems to understand that at some point you need to level with your members and supporters so that the can join in on the ride. It's the pressure release that it necessary to enable everyone to move forward. The irony is, of course, that our onfield performance does not suffer (as evidence by the last three matches).

The concerning thing is that Worsfold was a master tanker at West Coast. Results ebbed and flowed and West Coast seemed always to ride it out. He left Adam Simpson a list that made a GF in two years because of it and that same list is the foundation of the current side.

You complain about our mediocrity over the last 15 years yet your solution is to actively develop a losing culture. You want us to dig ourselves in bigger rut than we're in now. Why you wan't us to model ourselves on the team that's last and who's tanking got themselves absolutely nowhere I have no idea.

Anyone who want us to actively tank can just * off as far as I'm concerned.
 

JayJ20

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Aug 28, 2016
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I do not see how we win a final even if we made it. Is it really wise for us to make finals only to get smashed again?

Will making finals make us even more deluded?

The only positive would be that we might attract some players hoping to come to Melbourne

I don't ever want us to actively lose games. I couldn't accept that. Why would I be invested in a team that wants to lose?
 

BrunoV

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You complain about our mediocrity over the last 15 years yet your solution is to actively develop a losing culture. You want us to dig ourselves in bigger rut than we're in now. Why you wan't us to model ourselves on the team that's last and who's tanking got themselves absolutely nowhere I have no idea.

Anyone who want us to actively tank can just **** off as far as I'm concerned.


So what did North do last year? How did West Coast end up with Nic Nat? What was the precursor to Hawks dynasty? It's called list development.

The extreme irony for us is that it will almost certainly improve onfield results.

You watch what Hawthorn does the next time it sees that it's too far away.
 
So what did North do last year? How did West Coast end up with Nic Nat? What was the precursor to Hawks dynasty? It's called list development.

The extreme irony for us is that it will almost certainly improve onfield results.

You watch what Hawthorn does the next time it sees that it's too far away.
Tanking and list development are in no way linked.
 

AcuteWhistle

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Aug 6, 2017
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Maybe the coaches will get mixed up after the slide on Monday & we'll get Dimma back instead of Woosha...
 

BrunoV

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You can cite plenty of examples where tanking has patently failed too. But let's just ignore those.


The negative examples are largely irrelevant because they don't reflect the state of our list.

It's interesting that you'd think my take on this equates to a need to spend three years in last place which is what would bring us into the realm of the tanking disasters.

What are we faced with? A shot season with a senior core we know doesn't work and a glut of second to fourth year players who are in and out of the team who our fortunes will be tied to.
 
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They're irrelevant because they don't support your argument, Bruno. Let's not beat around the bush.

And I never mentioned anything about timeframes of bottom-dwelling. I just find the idea that a tank, even a single season tank, is a guaranteed panacea to be positively hilarious.
 

BrunoV

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They're irrelevant because they don't support your argument, Bruno. Let's not beat around the bush.


Sure, you tell me how many similarities there are between our list, our performances and the quality of the experience we do have and a tanking disaster and you'll have a point.
 
Sure, you tell me how many similarities there are between our list, our performances and the quality of the experience we do have and a tanking disaster and you'll have a point.
Give me an example of of similarities between our list, our performances and the quality of the experience we do have and a tanking success and you'll have a point.
 
In the context of the side we've picked this weekend us tanking would only involve us picking Laverde over Green, Francis over Dea and Clarke over Myers and more importantly chucking them the keys for the duration, not just the week. That's not tanking, that's just common bloody sense.
 
In the context of the side we've picked this weekend us tanking would only involve us picking Laverde over Green, Francis over Dea and Clarke over Myers and more importantly chucking them the keys for the duration, not just the week. That's not tanking, that's just common bloody sense.
Tanking in its fullest and most full blown form never just exists in a one week-exclusive vacuum, though.
 
Tanking in its fullest and most full blown form never just exists in a one week-exclusive vacuum, though.

We wouldn't be doing that though, I don't think anyone is suggesting trade Heppell, Hurley and Zaharakis for picks, turfing 15 players at the end of the year and throwing the towel in for 2019, it's essentially tweaking and revamping.

It's not a one week think, it's about showing some semblance of self awareness, extrapolating that ethos for another 12 weeks And being willing to finish 14th instead of 10th, reloading with a couple of good kids, a fit list and a bit more experience and going again.
 
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We wouldn't be doing that though, I don't think anyone is suggesting trade Heppell, Hurley and Zaharakis for picks, turfing 15 players at the end of the year and throwing the towel in for 2019, it's essentially tweaking and revamping.

It's not a one week think, it's about showing some semblance of self awareness, extrapolating that ethos for another 12 weeks and, being willing to finish 14th instead of 10th, reloading with a couple of good kids, a fit list and a bit more experience and going again.
I'd have no problem with something like that, really, because essentially I think even if we went all out for wins I doubt we'd get enough to even make finals anyway. Too much class missing and too many players are out of form. Tweaking and revamping is what you do once a season is more or less gone.
 

nipst@r

All Australian
May 5, 2006
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Last week I witnessed one fo the dumbest tactics I have ever seen in any level of football. Whilst Richmond are amazing in there structures and set ups currently. We decided to have our 2 loose men defenders stand right next to each other and then both run into the centre square still next to each other.

It helped us win 1 or 2 clearances but meant the ball was just kicked to the Richmond spares who were perfectly structured guarding dangerous areas and not directly next to each other. Then our two loose who were still basically holding hands would just be bypassed and Richmond goal.

It was embarrassing. You get sprays in U14's for this kind of crap. Not sure if it was the players. Usually goddard and mckenna or goddard and other but surely one charges in off the back: hits a body or gets a clearance and the other is the loose covering dangerous areas: being the intercept mark and rebounding half bank flanker. Or you do what Richmond do and simply cover as much area as possible so the other team repeatedly turns the ball over going forward.

For the first 3 quarters we had two players at the same 70% speed come in from the back of the square right next to each other. So dumb.

The aim of the game is to score more goals than the opposition. This loose two players off the back of the centre square metres apart doesn't help you defend at all, and doesn't help you attack at all.

Two players in the exact same position, trying to play the exact same role. In the last quarter at least it was tried to have merret floating loose but we were 10 goals down at this stage.

So either worsfold is terrible at in game changes, adapting to tactics from the other team or the players dont listen at all.
 
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Well, a club can delude itelf into thinking it's competitive or it can be a bit too pragmatic and tank and it seems that it will end up in exactly the same spot. Given that we've tried delusion for 15 years, it's probably time to try tanking.

It's the point that is missed in so much of the analysis. 20 - 50 year droughts and periods of mediocrity are not cyclical, especially not for the clubs with the resources that Essendon has.

The simply reality is that the club has not ever let itself come to terms with being mediocre, not for 15 years. It pretends that it's good and this forces the football department to make stupid decisions which it clocks up at a rapid rate.

Carlton finally seems to understand that at some point you need to level with your members and supporters so that they can join in on the ride. It's the pressure release that is necessary to enable everyone to move forward. The irony is, of course, that our onfield performance does not suffer when we play change the side (as evidence by the last three matches) so you'd have to be a fool to think that it will cost membership and sponsors.

The concerning thing is that Worsfold was a master tanker at West Coast. Results ebbed and flowed and West Coast seemed always to ride it out. He left Adam Simpson a list that made a GF in two years because of it and that same list is the foundation of the current side. He's chasing results with us when he should be trying to develop a team. That's not good.
You can cite plenty of examples where tanking has patently failed too. But let's just ignore those.
I dont ever think we should ever 'tank' in the same sense that got melbourne fined and carlton should have been.
That involved
- playing players purposely out of position with an intention for them to fail (Jamar at fullback, jordie mckenzie on n.riewoldt for example),
- continuing with players whom they knew wouldnt make the cut knowing they would help the team underperform and
- consistently and purposely ignore good form in the vfl.
- It also included ostracizing senior players like James McDonald, mclean, Yze and Cameron Bruce.
That method will only doom us for failure as you can see it took melbourne 10 years and 3 coaches to move past it. If thats what you mean by 'tank' BrunoV then your nuts.

What i would support though is short of tanking but looking to 2019.
Play as many kids as the team can support, if you can make a choice between youth and a senior fringe player (Green, Brown and increasingly Myers) then you always pick the former.
Emphasis is on game style and fundamentals. We should always look to win, but if we dont then the process of how we played, education of the younger players and our improvement from the week before is more important.
Long, Redman, Clarke, Laverde, langford and guelfi should be given extended runs where possible. They still need to earn games in the VFL but when they do we dont wait for a spot to open up. We make one by sacrificing a player who may not deserve to be dropped but is clearly fringe (Brown, Dea, McKernan or Myers).
We wont make finals with the run home that we have, i believe. Green, Myers, Dea amd Brown likely wont be here in 2 years. Why wait till then to blood kids. Start now.
Maybe hold 4-5 spots for younger players over and ritate them through in 4-5 game blocks to ensure they dont burn out is another idea.

Again you arent trying to lose or improve draft position, you are building for 10 games and rewarding good practices amd improvement in youngsters. The draft benefits are a fortunate byproduct.
 
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