Senior Players

[Stoods]

I think we need to look at doing a GWS/Stevie J type deal, where we pick up a top level veteran from another club and give them a playing into assistant coaching contract.

My fanciful dreams would be one of Hodge, Burgoyne, Bartel, Simpson or Rooey

For this to happen we would need one of those clubs to 'move on' one of the seniors players as Geelong did to Stevie J

 

[Jasper84]

For this to happen we would need one of those clubs to 'move on' one of the seniors players as Geelong did to Stevie J

Clubs have shown recently that they are prepared to trade their top veterans to bring youth in (Johnson, Lake) and I think the trend will increase. Even Dal Santo might be worth putting an offer to if North see their window closing.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I found one:

I must admit I'm over the whole Shaw thing.
He's gone, it's done, he's not coming back.
We have Adams, we win too.
Yawn.
Sorry but it's just been done to death

 

[Anzacday]

I must admit I'm over the whole Beams thing.
He's gone, it's done, he's not coming back.
We have DeGoey, Crisp & Greenwood, we win too.
Yawn.
Sorry but it's just been done to death

Updated.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Updated.

Cited for even more accuracy.
Agree.
Once they go, that's it.
Varcoe is with us now. It's goes both ways.

I'm even over the PHIL Carman suspension for whacking Tuck. Cost us a grand final probably.
Nah... Not over that grrrrrr......

 

[Markfs]

Clubs have shown recently that they are prepared to trade their top veterans to bring youth in (Johnson, Lake) and I think the trend will increase. Even Dal Santo might be worth putting an offer to if North see their window closing.

dal santo looks useful as an auctioneer for a best and fairest night.... or maybe someone who could sell a few of the old jumpers from the Collingwood shop over the phone....he might even be a useful celebrity race caller at a greyhound night..... or a male stripper for Collingwood ladies night.....but not as a player

 

[Markfs]

Here are my thoughts why the Pies are lacking in leadership 6 years after winning the flag.

Malthouse didnt value anything that diluted the focus on him. He saw himself as the sole source of knowledge. Everything was centred on him. Nick Maxwell was a leader but only to reinforce the Malthouse message. No different from Luke Hodge, you might say? Maybe. However, I see Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis as partners with Clarko. Maxwell was Malthouse's enforcer. I would never think of him being a partner in the process.

With Malthouse, the players display a superficial kind of leadership. It's not surprising that things went off track when Malthouse left. While Clarko is important in showing the way, Hawthorn wouldnt be lost if he went missing for a month or two. I dont think that was the case with Malthouse.

As a rough guide, think about players playing for the coach. In Clarko's case, I can see the younger hawthorn guys doing it. In Hodge's, Mitchell's or Lewis's case, I wouldnt think so. Clarko is in the mix but they want to achieve things in football because of a number of factors including their team-mates and personal achievement. In Malthouse's case, it boiled down to how well he could motivate each player.

Does it matter? Well I believe it's like an army of politically conscious, socially aware citizens coming up against an army of robots. If the citizens dont get their act together, they will look like a rabble and the robots will win. However, if the citizens are all on the same page, they will run rings around the robots and make em look foolish. The robots will rely on the controller to provide all the answers, while the citizens will problem solve at the coal face. Malthouse was good at programming robots but the modern game need players who can think. Not only that, generation Y needs to do the thinking or they wont be motivated..... just look at Carlton at the end of Malthouse's reign and how the players have responded to Bolton.

Personally, I see the cultural change at the Pies as being probably as difficult as the change happening at Melbourne. Until the under 25s start running the agenda we wont consistently beat the better teams.

 

[Bay Pie]

Don't know why you would? he is the boards biggest troll 99% of the time.

No he's not. I find his posts amusing, with most knowing it's a pisstake of the weekly kneejerk reactions that happen on BF. With so much 'interesting' to mindboggling opinion, it's always a reminder what BF used to be about. A bit of fun while discussing footy.

Similar to THATSGOLD and his/her pisstaking, only Markfs knows how to deliver some humour.

 

[Bay Pie]

Yeah I really miss his idiotic brain fades and weekly fifties against.

Not.

I miss his chip to himself and kick it again short or down the line for a nice little stat-padding. 10 behinds to opposition, there's 10 uncontested effective kicks. Good for supercoach though. Unless it's a game like the weekend where her had 10 clangers, LOL.

 

[Markfs]

No he's not. I find his posts amusing, with most knowing it's a pisstake of the weekly kneejerk reactions that happen on BF. With so much 'interesting' to mindboggling opinion, it's always a reminder what BF used to be about. A bit of fun while discussing footy.

Similar to THATSGOLD and his/her pisstaking, only Markfs knows how to deliver some humour.

Thanks for your support. And thanks for comparisons with that BF legend Thatsgold who has provided such incisive analysis in recent years. I must admit that I'm not as brave as TG. He seems to take everyone on while I'm just a run of the mill Buckley-hater who also doesnt like players who lack mongrel and a few other things. I definitely follow the pack rather than lead, as I just want to be liked in the forum. It's not that I hate being called a troll. I'm used to being called names since I was a child. It's just that it upsets me to excluded that way, when I'm trying so hard to be like everyone else.

 

[loki04]

No he's not. I find his posts amusing, with most knowing it's a pisstake of the weekly kneejerk reactions that happen on BF. With so much 'interesting' to mindboggling opinion, it's always a reminder what BF used to be about. A bit of fun while discussing footy.

Similar to THATSGOLD and his/her pisstaking, only Markfs knows how to deliver some humour.

I know he takes the piss out of everyone on here and rarely posts on topic and in a serious manner, so much so im not even sure if his op is genuine or just another attempt at trying to lure in genuine posts to then belittle the postets/board.
It is interesting that you see the humour in it, where as i see the c*ckhead side of it and never really seen it as humourous. I guess it depends on what you find funny.
If it was an odd post here or there it may well be funny (with better material) but he/she does it with such regularity it goes beyond humour/satire imo.


Never seen TG as a troll just different perspective to others.

 

[Nuffsaid]

Here are my thoughts why the Pies are lacking in leadership 6 years after winning the flag.

Malthouse didnt value anything that diluted the focus on him. He saw himself as the sole source of knowledge. Everything was centred on him. Nick Maxwell was a leader but only to reinforce the Malthouse message. No different from Luke Hodge, you might say? Maybe. However, I see Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis as partners with Clarko. Maxwell was Malthouse's enforcer. I would never think of him being a partner in the process.

With Malthouse, the players display a superficial kind of leadership. It's not surprising that things went off track when Malthouse left. While Clarko is important in showing the way, Hawthorn wouldnt be lost if he went missing for a month or two. I dont think that was the case with Malthouse.

As a rough guide, think about players playing for the coach. In Clarko's case, I can see the younger hawthorn guys doing it. In Hodge's, Mitchell's or Lewis's case, I wouldnt think so. Clarko is in the mix but they want to achieve things in football because of a number of factors including their team-mates and personal achievement. In Malthouse's case, it boiled down to how well he could motivate each player.

Does it matter? Well I believe it's like an army of politically conscious, socially aware citizens coming up against an army of robots. If the citizens dont get their act together, they will look like a rabble and the robots will win. However, if the citizens are all on the same page, they will run rings around the robots and make em look foolish. The robots will rely on the controller to provide all the answers, while the citizens will problem solve at the coal face. Malthouse was good at programming robots but the modern game need players who can think. Not only that, generation Y needs to do the thinking or they wont be motivated..... just look at Carlton at the end of Malthouse's reign and how the players have responded to Bolton.

Personally, I see the cultural change at the Pies as being probably as difficult as the change happening at Melbourne. Until the under 25s start running the agenda we wont consistently beat the better teams.

Interesting analogy and I think there's a lot of merit in your comments in this thread.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I know he takes the piss out of everyone on here and rarely posts on topic and in a serious manner, so much so im not even sure if his op is genuine or just another attempt at trying to lure in genuine posts to then belittle the postets/board.
It is interesting that you see the humour in it, where as i see the c*ckhead side of it and never really seen it as humourous. I guess it depends on what you find funny.
If it was an odd post here or there it may well be funny (with better material) but he/she does it with such regularity it goes beyond humour/satire imo.


Never seen TG as a troll just different perspective to others.

Ahh the fun we have on bigfooty

 

[Markfs]

I know he takes the piss out of everyone on here and rarely posts on topic and in a serious manner, so much so im not even sure if his op is genuine or just another attempt at trying to lure in genuine posts to then belittle the postets/board.
It is interesting that you see the humour in it, where as i see the c*ckhead side of it and never really seen it as humourous. I guess it depends on what you find funny.
If it was an odd post here or there it may well be funny (with better material) but he/she does it with such regularity it goes beyond humour/satire imo.


Never seen TG as a troll just different perspective to others.

Farbauti and Laufey must be proud...

 

[Bay Pie]

I know he takes the piss out of everyone on here and rarely posts on topic and in a serious manner, so much so im not even sure if his op is genuine or just another attempt at trying to lure in genuine posts to then belittle the postets/board.
It is interesting that you see the humour in it, where as i see the c*ckhead side of it and never really seen it as humourous. I guess it depends on what you find funny.
If it was an odd post here or there it may well be funny (with better material) but he/she does it with such regularity it goes beyond humour/satire imo.


Never seen TG as a troll just different perspective to others.

You've been around a while and would know what we all thought of the Richmond board back in the day. That's what our board has become and Markfs is rightly pointing it out.

He's taking the piss out of the same posters who belittle others.

TG...please. Massive pisstake and nothing he/she says can be taken seriously.

 

[Markfs]

You've been around a while and would know what we all thought of the Richmond board back in the day. That's what our board has become and Markfs is rightly pointing it out.

He's taking the piss out of the same posters who belittle others.

TG...please. Massive pisstake and nothing he/she says can be taken seriously.

Thanks for the support. I must admit that i'm baffled sometimes by the irony of people calling me a troll, while they're calling me nasty names. I've been on the internet for way too many years and I remember being fascinated early on by people who take on names from the world of fantasy and then proceed to say things that they would never have the guts to say in their own sorry lives.... Who knows if it just worsens the delusion or helps in the therapy. Either way, I'm not really concerned how the story ends.

There's no strategy to my posts. Sometimes I read something completely irrational, and I post accordingly. I must admit that I am fascinated by sheep and how they turn to the left if the sheep in front of them turn left and likewise to the right. I wouldn't last too long on mcdonalds farm.

btw I'm not trying to take anyone's piss. I have enough of my own and should I need more, I would purchase on ebay.

i'd feel bad if I thought that I was upsetting people - of course i'm lying here - if I didn't know that people could just put me on ignore....

I need breakfast and I should mow the lawn before it rains.... I wish I had a pokemon program that could mow

 

[jackcass]

We've never been a club who's had many 300 game players and at least in the last couple of decades our players don't play deep into their 30s. It has to be more than the current admin/fitness staff.

Consider our current veteran role players with their all australian team mates who are conceivably still young enough to be playing.

Blair (26) -> Didak (33)
Goldsack (28) -> Maxwell (32)
Macaffer (28) -> Ball (32)
Toovey (29) -> Davis (34)

There's no doubt that if these players or others like Brown (34), Jolly (34), Johnson (35), Krakouer (33), Medhurst (34) and Tarrant (35) were able to produce the level we see with veterans from other clubs we'd be better placed. Davis aside, all the others had injury and/or massive drop offs in form.

The loss of Thomas (29), Shaw (30), Wellingham (28), Lumumba (29) and Beams (26) also hurts in terms of senior players.

It's certainly an enigma. The players who should have been phased out and replaced by better talent are those that remain while the highly skilled players or players with great leadership all fall apart and lack longevity. You look at the Cats and the Hawks or even the Doggies and not only are their senior players still going but they're pivotal to their performance rather than just performing a role.

I don't know how you address that through your recruiting. It's not something you can test draftees for. Our squad hasn't been in the position where we could grab a Stevie J or a Waite and get that 2-3 year boost that might make a difference come September but we're building the core so if not this trade/draft period then definitely 2017. Even then though I'd prefer we target the higher end FA 26 year olds like a Higgins rather than 30+ types. Just makes more sense with our profile.

 

[Markfs]

It's certainly an enigma. The players who should have been phased out and replaced by better talent are those that remain while the highly skilled players or players with great leadership all fall apart and lack longevity. You look at the Cats and the Hawks or even the Doggies and not only are their senior players still going but they're pivotal to their performance rather than just performing a role.

I don't know how you address that through your recruiting. It's not something you can test draftees for. Our squad hasn't been in the position where we could grab a Stevie J or a Waite and get that 2-3 year boost that might make a difference come September but we're building the core so if not this trade/draft period then definitely 2017. Even then though I'd prefer we target the higher end FA 26 year olds like a Higgins rather than 30+ types. Just makes more sense with our profile.

Its because the Hawks and the Cats - either by good recruiting or being at the bottom of the ladder - got to recruit a core of talented players. The key word is core. And the other keyword is talented. Bartel was 8th in the draft. Enright was 47th but was a great pick. He was picked in 1999. Just think about how long he has been with the club. Picking up a stevie j for a year or 2 just doesn't cut the mustard. I just read somewhere where Enright wasn't much of a leader until recent years. It's not always something that a recruiter can spot. It's a complicated thing but I don't think the culture under Malthouse supported it leadership. As I said, I think he was the only leader..

Its interesting to look at the WB after what happened last year with Cooney and Griffin leaving... I don't think either of them showed much leadership. Griffin said he didn't want it. Cooney looks like he's paying off his mortgage at the Bombers ...not much else. Evidently neither of them liked Brendan MacCarthy. Did he ask them to do more? Lots of upheaval. The coach gets dumped. Chris Scott says that a lot of whats happening now at WB can be traced to McCarthy. Sounds like something similar to Pie situation but one year advanced.

 

[jackcass]

Its because the Hawks and the Cats - either by good recruiting or being at the bottom of the ladder - got to recruit a core of talented players. The key word is core. And the other keyword is talented. Bartel was 8th in the draft. Enright was 47th but was a great pick. He was picked in 1999. Just think about how long he has been with the club. Picking up a stevie j for a year or 2 just doesn't cut the mustard. I just read somewhere where Enright wasn't much of a leader until recent years. It's not always something that a recruiter can spot. It's a complicated thing but I don't think the culture under Malthouse supported it leadership. As I said, I think he was the only leader..

Its interesting to look at the WB after what happened last year with Cooney and Griffin leaving... I don't think either of them showed much leadership. Griffin said he didn't want it. Cooney looks like he's paying off his mortgage at the Bombers ...not much else. Evidently neither of them liked Brendan MacCarthy. Did he ask them to do more? Lots of upheaval. The coach gets dumped. Chris Scott says that a lot of whats happening now at WB can be traced to McCarthy. Sounds like something similar to Pie situation but one year advanced.

Still luck of the draw come draft time. Can't test for longevity, and never know who'll be the hidden gems taken later. We've had our share of hidden gems over the years, SSB, Swanny to name a couple, as well as our rookie draft successes..

I've made the point elsewhere that Beveridge would be extremely grateful of the defensive foundations laid under McCarthy's tenure. Allowed him to implement a more offensive mindset among the playing group.

 

[jmac70]

Here are my thoughts why the Pies are lacking in leadership 6 years after winning the flag.

Malthouse didnt value anything that diluted the focus on him. He saw himself as the sole source of knowledge. Everything was centred on him. Nick Maxwell was a leader but only to reinforce the Malthouse message. No different from Luke Hodge, you might say? Maybe. However, I see Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis as partners with Clarko. Maxwell was Malthouse's enforcer. I would never think of him being a partner in the process.

With Malthouse, the players display a superficial kind of leadership. It's not surprising that things went off track when Malthouse left. While Clarko is important in showing the way, Hawthorn wouldnt be lost if he went missing for a month or two. I dont think that was the case with Malthouse.

As a rough guide, think about players playing for the coach. In Clarko's case, I can see the younger hawthorn guys doing it. In Hodge's, Mitchell's or Lewis's case, I wouldnt think so. Clarko is in the mix but they want to achieve things in football because of a number of factors including their team-mates and personal achievement. In Malthouse's case, it boiled down to how well he could motivate each player.

Does it matter? Well I believe it's like an army of politically conscious, socially aware citizens coming up against an army of robots. If the citizens dont get their act together, they will look like a rabble and the robots will win. However, if the citizens are all on the same page, they will run rings around the robots and make em look foolish. The robots will rely on the controller to provide all the answers, while the citizens will problem solve at the coal face. Malthouse was good at programming robots but the modern game need players who can think. Not only that, generation Y needs to do the thinking or they wont be motivated..... just look at Carlton at the end of Malthouse's reign and how the players have responded to Bolton.

Personally, I see the cultural change at the Pies as being probably as difficult as the change happening at Melbourne. Until the under 25s start running the agenda we wont consistently beat the better teams.

With all due respect, that is a pile of poo.

 

[Bay Pie]

It's not earth shattering to say that our senior players are a very ordinary lot, especially compared to other teams.

Hawthorn has Hodge, Mitchell, Lewis to name a few. All very much at the core of what they're doing at the moment.
Geelong has Enright, Bartel, Mackie, Longergan who are central to how the backline plays.
Sydney has a ton of them all over the ground.

Easy to name good senior players at successful clubs but have a look at St. Kilda. There's the old stagers like Nick and Montana. But there are others like Gilbert and Geary who still doing a good job. Have a look at Western Bulldogs. Bob Murphy, Matthew Boyd, Dale Morris. All have played a central part in the formation of their backline.

I reckon if I could be bothered, I could probably point out similar groups of senior players in other teams - especially the successful ones. I think one of the major problems with Melbourne and Brisbane has been the lack of 10 year veterans who get the job done week in week out.

With the Pies, we have Pendles. We could probably throw in Sidebottom into the mix but I wouldnt call him a senior player in most teams.

We have Toovey, who was a rookie listed player who didnt get picked up initially because he couldnt kick. That's become more of a problem with each season, even though he has shown great heart.

We have Nathan Brown, who by his own admission was playing selfish, content to stick to his own man and just do that negating job. His kicking has also been a problem. Contrast these Brown and Toov's kicking skills with the senior players that I have mentioned from other teams. When you're looking for someone to protect the ball down back, who you gonna call? I'd prefer ghostbusters to these two.

We also have Brent Caf....who was also a past rookie listed player. That's not the issue but it does highlight that he had recognised limitations when he was drafted. It's hard for him to be quick now because he wasn't fast at the start. You might say neither is Hodge, Mitchell and Lewis but they got picked early in the draft (even Mitchell was relatively high) because of their vision etc. Those qualities have only improved with time. Caf shows great leadership in the VFL games, but he cant do it at AFL level.

We have Cloke. Although he has taken being dropped to the VFL pretty well, so he should, at least I think so. He's been paid pretty well over the years. I dont think he has the right to act like Lewis Hamilton, when he's dropped for poor form. He's been acting like the youngest child since he started with the club and its hard to think of him as a senior player.... so I dont really have to say anything about him. His CV demonstrates his lack of "senior" qualities.

We have Tyson Goldsack who was the runt of the litter before he got drafted, and he has played that way ever since. I always thought that the boys should have taken him out in the early days and take him to a few strip joints and let him sow some wild oats and generally grow up. He has grown up a little over the years, and he now looks like a cardboard cut-out senior player. The big problem is that he cant get a game, so his leadership qualities cant even be factored in.

We have Jaryd Blair. Whatever you say about the hobbit, a large reason why he is in the side is the lamentable lack of leadership in the team. Another rookie. I saw a recent comment by Mick that he was one of his poster boys. I can see why.

The rest are the imports. Varcoe, Howe, Greenwood, White. All of them are senior players in the current squad but they were just ordinary players where they came from. I wouldnt bank of any of them making the same impact as the Hawthorn boys, although Varcoe has grown noticeably since his arrival.

When I go through all those names, it doesnt breed any confidence in me in the short term. Some of the players need to have a good look at themselves while others have been bit players for years and its hard for them to have an impact like senior players at other clubs.

Whatever your thoughts are about the coaching situation, I dont see premierships until the next generation take over the reins. ok its monday morning and i need to show some leadership and do some work....

It's undeniable that our senior players have suffered from injuries and/or poor form this. I see very few of them as real leaders anyway.

The club is being driven by the younger like Adams, Moore, Treloar along with Pendles and to a lessor extent Sidey. Definite hole in our list profile.

Can not be disputed Malthouse ruled with an iron fist. It was always his way or the highway. Ask Sav, Heath Scotland, Taz etc. When the seniors players wanted guys suspended by the club for indiscretions, Malthouse overruled them stating 'why should I punish the club, for some players mistakes?'. Nice cop out.

 

[PicaBoo]

With all due respect, that is a pile of poo.

Care to elaborate? Leadership has been an issue, considering how we have been chopping and changing the leadership group in the past years. 2 of our most senior players like Cloke and Swan are not exactly inspiring or the lead by example type. Ditto for our backline.
Can't wait for our current crop of youngsters to come through.

 

[jmac70]

Care to elaborate? Leadership has been an issue, considering how we have been chopping and changing the leadership group in the past years. 2 of our most senior players like Cloke and Swan are not exactly inspiring or the lead by example type. Ditto for our backline.
Can't wait for our current crop of youngsters to come through.

Mark appears to want to blame MM for the current leadership problems. Describing Maxwell as an enforcer is incredibly disrespectful and just plain wrong. Maxwell is his own man and was a great captain. Without his leadership we would have been overrun in the 2010 drawn grand final. I don't think Mark has a clue what he is talking about TBH.

 

[PicaBoo]

Mark appears to want to blame MM for the current leadership problems. Describing Maxwell as an enforcer is incredibly disrespectful and just plain wrong. Maxwell is his own man and was a great captain. Without his leadership we would have been overrun in the 2010 drawn grand final. I don't think Mark has a clue what he is talking about TBH.

Ah you mean that angle. I didn't interpret it as Maxy being a mindless handpuppet so I leave that between you 2.
Without pointing fingers, the leadership post MM has been found wanting. Apart from Shaw , who else would be in our leadership group right now from the premiership group that has been moved on. And what is there to say they wouldn't be as bad as our current group that hardly demand selection. Shaw btw needed to be traded to open his eyes. The past 5 yrs we only produced Adams to make it that level. Only now we can see some reasonable youth with serious leadership potential coming through but those players still need to mature on and off the field. Whether that is indicative for the lost 5 yrs or for good 5yrs for to come, time will tell.

 

[jmac70]

Ah you mean that angle. I didn't interpret it as Maxy being a mindless handpuppet so I leave that between you 2.
Without pointing fingers, the leadership post MM has been found wanting. Apart from Shaw , who else would be in our leadership group right now from the premiership group that has been moved on. And what is there to say they wouldn't be as bad as our current group that hardly demand selection. Shaw btw needed to be traded to open his eyes. The past 5 yrs we only produced Adams to make it that level. Only now we can see some reasonable youth with serious leadership potential coming through but those players still need to mature on and off the field. Whether that is indicative for the lost 5 yrs or for good 5yrs for to come, time will tell.

I agree that we have leadership issues. That's on Buckley.