Settle down people.

[Gralin]

Is your avatar of a crackhead?

 

[Tyrone Time]

The Fox Footy analyst told AFL 360 Clarkson has lost the Hawthorn changeroom and that players are no longer playing for the 48-year-old.
“They’ve only won two of their last nine games, when you go back through it,” Maclure said.

“That’s pretty poor. We already saw this coming from the start. They need to change their game style, they really do. Do you think they are playing for Alastair Clarkson? They don’t look like they’re playing for him at all. That’s what I see and it’s unfortunate because he’s been such a great coach and he still is a good coach.

“The players are worn out and gone. They’ve played two good quarters for the year. The second quarter against Essendon and the first quarter against Adelaide. From that moment on, every quarter they’ve lost.
He said the Hawks’ senior players are underperforming.

“I think there needs to be some change here,” he said.

“Ben Stratton is struggling big time. (James) Frawley has struggled since he got there. Luke Hodge is not really at his best and we all understand that. Josh Gibson looks in danger for mine. They are older players. “Cyril Rioli is in trouble. He’s hardly kicked a goal. Gunston hasn’t kicked a goal. What is going on here? These are household names. These are grand finalists. That is wrong.

Ben McEvoy gets bashed every week in the ruck. Don’t tell me there’s not some kids in this side they can play. They’re so old what is the point of continuing to play them? They need to change with some youth.”

 

[tige19]

The Fox Footy analyst told AFL 360 Clarkson has lost the Hawthorn changeroom and that players are no longer playing for the 48-year-old.
“They’ve only won two of their last nine games, when you go back through it,” Maclure said.

“That’s pretty poor. We already saw this coming from the start. They need to change their game style, they really do. Do you think they are playing for Alastair Clarkson? They don’t look like they’re playing for him at all. That’s what I see and it’s unfortunate because he’s been such a great coach and he still is a good coach.

“The players are worn out and gone. They’ve played two good quarters for the year. The second quarter against Essendon and the first quarter against Adelaide. From that moment on, every quarter they’ve lost.
He said the Hawks’ senior players are underperforming.

“I think there needs to be some change here,” he said.

“Ben Stratton is struggling big time. (James) Frawley has struggled since he got there. Luke Hodge is not really at his best and we all understand that. Josh Gibson looks in danger for mine. They are older players. “Cyril Rioli is in trouble. He’s hardly kicked a goal. Gunston hasn’t kicked a goal. What is going on here? These are household names. These are grand finalists. That is wrong.

Ben McEvoy gets bashed every week in the ruck. Don’t tell me there’s not some kids in this side they can play. They’re so old what is the point of continuing to play them? They need to change with some youth.”

90% of this is spot on... The only thing I disagree with is the players not playing for Clarko bit, the rest is spot on. Maclure is a Hawthorn media fan to so no-one can say it is a witch hunt, he says it how it is and how is saying it is spot on.

 

[flinchfree]

90% of this is spot on... The only thing I disagree with is the players not playing for Clarko bit, the rest is spot on. Maclure is a Hawthorn media fan to so no-one can say it is a witch hunt, he says it how it is and how is saying it is spot on.

90% ?

"We already saw this coming from the start"? Soooo, he saw it when exactly? Pre-season?
"They don't look like they're playing for him". You've already said this is wrong, impossible to know without word of disquiet amongst the playing group - of which there has been no hint.
"The Hawks are worn out and gone". Pretty definitive. So, this early in the season, the players are worn out? Gone? Is Gunners gone? Cyril Gone? Stratts gone? Poppy gone? JOM gone? Tommy Mitch gone? Isaac gone? Not out of touch, not low on confidence or unsure how to implement the game plan, but GONE? Your effing kidding me right Tige?
What about Ben Stratton and Frawley? Maybe they do a little better when the entire team defends and the ball comes in less regularly and with less time to hit up forwards? They gone too?
What kind of trouble is Cyril in? He can't be struggling for touch? He's just no good now.

Maclure's estimation is one side BS. Not considered, as in, lets look how those above named do over the next 10-12 weeks to get a gauge on where they're at? Not, it will be interesting to see how and if Clarko can get this group turned around or whether they might need to let some players go at the end of the year to reignite careers elsewhere.....
Instead, he's basically called all our players finished, and Clarko a dead man walking.
After making a Semi Final last year.

Unbelievable.

 

[tige19]

90% ?

"We already saw this coming from the start"? Soooo, he saw it when exactly? Pre-season?
"They don't look like they're playing for him". You've already said this is wrong, impossible to know without word of disquiet amongst the playing group - of which there has been no hint.
"The Hawks are worn out and gone". Pretty definitive. So, this early in the season, the players are worn out? Gone? Is Gunners gone? Cyril Gone? Stratts gone? Poppy gone? JOM gone? Tommy Mitch gone? Isaac gone? Not out of touch, not low on confidence or unsure how to implement the game plan, but GONE? Your effing kidding me right Tige?
What about Ben Stratton and Frawley? Maybe they do a little better when the entire team defends and the ball comes in less regularly and with less time to hit up forwards? They gone too?
What kind of trouble is Cyril in? He can't be struggling for touch? He's just no good now.

Maclure's estimation is one side BS. Not considered, as in, lets look how those above named do over the next 10-12 weeks to get a gauge on where they're at? Not, it will be interesting to see how and if Clarko can get this group turned around or whether they might need to let some players go at the end of the year to reignite careers elsewhere.....
Instead, he's basically called all our players finished, and Clarko a dead man walking.
After making a Semi Final last year.

Unbelievable.

Rubbish. Maclure is basing his opinion on the last 2 odd months of footy this side has played, how is he wrong in any way? We beat a rubbish Carlton side by 3 goals in Tassie round 19, never looked comfortable. Round 20 we were absolutely smacked by Melbourne, round 21 was convincing against North, we blew them away in the first qtr and held steady. Round 22 we where torched by the Eagles, should have been done by 10 goals if not for wasteful shots on goal and round 23 was the great escape against a shocking Pies.

The writing has been on the wall for longer than the past 3 h&a games, we looked super ordinary in the JLT and our very last game we where monstered by the Dogs. Maclure is calling it exactly how it is, our players have declined in output substantially, our older guys have aged quicker than anticipated. It's not an indictment against them, it's simply the facts of an ageing list, the guys look and are playing like they're cooked.

I don't agree with the statement about the boys not playing for Clarko, that is rubbish, he has the respect of every footballer in the league and every footballer would be privileged to play under him. However the comments on the game plan looking shotty, the players looking cooked is absolutely spot on. They may come out and change that perception, I still have faith, I still think that these guys have a bit to give but on all evidence supplied how can you argue? Take those brown and gold blinkers off mate, if it was Essendon or Geelong playing in the same manner you'd be saying the same thing.

 

[Davo23]

90% of this is spot on... The only thing I disagree with is the players not playing for Clarko bit, the rest is spot on. Maclure is a Hawthorn media fan to so no-one can say it is a witch hunt, he says it how it is and how is saying it is spot on.

Don't be fooled: McClure is ex-Carlton.

You may recall that his last game was in the 1986 Grand Final - we know how that ended!

That is all.

 

[eldorado]

McClure is an antagonist first and foremost, with a dogmatic approach.

We liked it when his dogma was "Hawthorn rule"...now it's "Hawthorn are crap"

Both of them are impervious to external influence.

 

[Hodgey09]

Before I'm misinterpreted and torn limb from limb, it's not insane to question Clarkson's current coaching and whether it is taking us in the best direction. At the end of the day Hawthorn is a results driven organisation that no one, not even a coach that may well go down as the GOAT is bigger than. To put it simply, if its found that Clarkson isn't doing the job in 2017 then the idea of whether he's the best man for the job or not and who else is available in 2017 should absolutely be questioned regardless of what he's achieved previously.

Look at Leicester City for those who follow the EPL. Former manager Claudio Ranieri was sacked 292 days after leading Leicester to their first title win in an 132 year history, defying 5000/1 odds and arguably masterminding what was one of the greatest sporting stories of all time.

Yet Leicester in the new season was playing appalling football, were completely directionless and heading on a one way track to relegation. When the prospect of sacking Ranieri came up a lot of the comments were like the ones in this very thread, "its outrageous", "how can you even say that?" and numerous "But he won the title so he should be allowed to do what he wants even if we get relegated" suggestions.

Leicesters Thai owners made the absolutely brutal decision to sack him and put interim manager Craig Shakespeare in charge. Since then the club has absolutely flown, recording win after win and landing themselves in the Champions League quarter finals against Atletico Madrid who are about 70 x more talented than Leicester are and have almost completely shutting out any further worries of relegation as they storm toward a mid table finish.

Bottom line is we're playing like s**t and everything needs to be evaluated. And when thats happening in a results driven organisation that expects the best, that well and truly includes evaluating the coach, regardless of what he's done previously.

 

[bradburygold]

Before I'm misinterpreted and torn limb from limb, it's not insane to question Clarkson's current coaching and whether it is taking us in the best direction. At the end of the day Hawthorn is a results driven organisation that no one, not even a coach that may well go down as the GOAT is bigger than. To put it simply, if its found that Clarkson isn't doing the job in 2017 then the idea of whether he's the best man for the job or not and who else is available in 2017 should absolutely be questioned regardless of what he's achieved previously.

Look at Leicester City for those who follow the EPL. Former manager Claudio Ranieri was sacked 292 days after leading Leicester to their first title win in an 132 year history, defying 5000/1 odds and arguably masterminding what was one of the greatest sporting stories of all time.

Yet Leicester in the new season was playing appalling football, were completely directionless and heading on a one way track to relegation. When the prospect of sacking Ranieri came up a lot of the comments were like the ones in this very thread, "its outrageous", "how can you even say that?" and numerous "But he won the title so he should be allowed to do what he wants even if we get relegated" suggestions.

Leicesters Thai owners made the absolutely brutal decision to sack him and put interim manager Craig Shakespeare in charge. Since then the club has absolutely flown, recording win after win and landing themselves in the Champions League quarter finals against Atletico Madrid who are about 70 x more talented than Leicester are and have almost completely shutting out any further worries of relegation as they storm toward a mid table finish.

Bottom line is we're playing like s**t and everything needs to be evaluated. And when thats happening in a results driven organisation that expects the best, that well and truly includes evaluating the coach, regardless of what he's done previously.

short term that was a good decision for leicester but there is no relegation in afl so no need to rush any movements for the GOAT

 

[flinchfree]

Rubbish. Maclure is basing his opinion on the last 2 odd months of footy this side has played, how is he wrong in any way? We beat a rubbish Carlton side by 3 goals in Tassie round 19, never looked comfortable. Round 20 we were absolutely smacked by Melbourne, round 21 was convincing against North, we blew them away in the first qtr and held steady. Round 22 we where torched by the Eagles, should have been done by 10 goals if not for wasteful shots on goal and round 23 was the great escape against a shocking Pies.

The writing has been on the wall for longer than the past 3 h&a games, we looked super ordinary in the JLT and our very last game we where monstered by the Dogs. Maclure is calling it exactly how it is, our players have declined in output substantially, our older guys have aged quicker than anticipated. It's not an indictment against them, it's simply the facts of an ageing list, the guys look and are playing like they're cooked.

I don't agree with the statement about the boys not playing for Clarko, that is rubbish, he has the respect of every footballer in the league and every footballer would be privileged to play under him. However the comments on the game plan looking shotty, the players looking cooked is absolutely spot on. They may come out and change that perception, I still have faith, I still think that these guys have a bit to give but on all evidence supplied how can you argue? Take those brown and gold blinkers off mate, if it was Essendon or Geelong playing in the same manner you'd be saying the same thing.

Garbage.
I wouldn't call any team that had won 3 out of the last 4 grandfinals, including a Semi last year, GONE because of what you call 2 months of footy. Regardless of the team.
Wins aren't good enough for you, they have to be smashings to be appropriate.
I saw us fall in or lose to Footscray, the Saints, Fitzroy and many other bottom dwellers throughout our 7 years of consecutive grandfinal appearances.

You know there was a reason they called us too slow and too old back then, right?
It wasn't just journalistic prose.
It was because at various times that's how we looked and played.

But that's ok, you'd prefer to be prepared for disaster and then pleasantly shocked if we end up doing better than that, I like the other route of keeping the faith until the team proves unequivocally it can't do what it needs to anymore.
I'm going to enjoy our footy more I'd say over the next 3 years.

 

[Hodgey09]

short term that was a good decision for leicester but there is no relegation in afl so no need to rush any movements for the GOAT

No not at all mate, just think the Ranieri sacking is a good parallel to highlight the fact that it isn't ridiculous to evaluate where Clarkson is taking us despite the amazing things he's achieved previously that we'll all be forever grateful for.

 

[bradburygold]

No not at all mate, just think the Ranieri sacking is a good parallel to highlight the fact that it isn't ridiculous to evaluate where Clarkson is taking us despite the amazing things he's achieved previously that we'll all be forever grateful for.

I just showed you that they shouldnt be compared - long term leicester still could have been better off keeping him especially if there was no relegation

 

[Hodgey09]

I just showed you that they shouldnt be compared - long term leicester still could have been better off keeping him especially if there was no relegation

How? Purely by stating theres no relegation in AFL?

They're perfectly comparable, two coaches that led their teams to truly incredible success and are now in charge of teams that are playing like crap.

It's a perfectly reasonable comparative example to show nothing more than the fact that coaches shouldn't be immune to evaluation based purely on prior achievements, no matter how great the prior achievements might have been.

 

[flinchfree]

How? Purely by stating theres no relegation in AFL?

They're perfectly comparable, two coaches that led their teams to truly incredible success and are now in charge of teams that are playing like crap.

It's a perfectly reasonable comparative example to show nothing more than the fact that coaches shouldn't be immune to evaluation based purely on prior achievements, no matter how great the prior achievements might have been.

No coach would last more than a year if they weren't making Grandfinals in your synopsis.
Because clearly, that's the only measure that is acceptable when judging a manager/coach.
You know for a fact that Leicester will continue their uptick this year and in coming years, or should they dump the current fella if they end up 18th on next years ladder?
How do you know Ranieri wouldn't have rebuilt the list and managed sustained success playing Premier League football, while going through a series of coaches won't see them back playing 2nd division football in a few years?

Absolutely stupid to throw away a proven winning model, especially one that isn't staid but seeks out new methods and plans constantly to position for the ultimate successes.

 

[Hodgey09]

No coach would last more than a year if they weren't making Grandfinals in your synopsis.
Because clearly, that's the only measure that is acceptable when judging a manager/coach.
You know for a fact that Leicester will continue their uptick this year and in coming years, or should they dump the current fella if they end up 18th on next years ladder?
How do you know Ranieri wouldn't have rebuilt the list and managed sustained success playing Premier League football, while going through a series of coaches won't see them back playing 2nd division football in a few years?

Absolutely stupid to throw away a proven winning model, especially one that isn't staid but seeks out new methods and plans constantly to position for the ultimate successes.

Because having watched every single Leicester game since the end of 2016, Ranieri would've been attempting to do that from the English first division.

Leicester's decision has seen them near safe from relegation and allows them to reevaluate their coaching situation with the time required to make such an important decision for a club.

The "current fella", Craig Shakespeare is in charge only until the end of the season.

Please tell me where I have stated that we should immediately "throw away a proven winning model"?

As I have now repeatedly stated, all Leicesters situation did is show that when things aren't going right for an organisation everything should be evaluated from top to bottom, including the coach and nostalgia over prior achievements shouldn't play a part.

As we are currently bottom of the ladder and playing like s**t, I didn't realise it was so mindblowingly absurd to suggest evaluating the coaching couldn't hurt.

Not throw away. Not sack. Evaluate.

 

[kazzooka]

We'd have to be bold and put some quality players on the table.

I would rather not put quality on the table and bring in talent via free agency where they cost nothing.

Obviously with Burton playing back, gunston on the wing, rough in the middle and Sicily and Shoenmakers at Boxhill we clearly have too many forwards squeezing them out of the starting 6... Not sure who they are though.

If we don't want to play Sicily as a forward though, ge should leave and we should trade him for a defender. He will never be the defender we want him to be but he is already a forward that many clubs would love to have. Not sure why he is so under appreciated as a forward by our club. A rare talent with plenty of x-factor.

 

[flinchfree]

Because having watched every single Leicester game since the end of 2016, Ranieri would've been attempting to do that from the English first division.

Leicester's decision has seen them near safe from relegation and allows them to reevaluate their coaching situation with the time required to make such an important decision for a club.

The "current fella", Craig Shakespeare is in charge only until the end of the season.

Please tell me where I have stated that we should immediately "throw away a proven winning model"?

As I have now repeatedly stated, all Leicesters situation did is show that when things aren't going right for an organisation everything should be evaluated from top to bottom, including the coach and nostalgia over prior achievements shouldn't play a part.

As we are currently bottom of the ladder and playing like s**t, I didn't realise it was so mindblowingly absurd to suggest evaluating the coaching couldn't hurt.

Not throw away. Not sack. Evaluate.

Who's doing the evaluating, you?
Who's in a position to evaluate Clarko as a coach, a four time winning premiership coach, at the Hawks.
Who's going to say, "Yup, he's out of his depth these days, unwilling or unable to create a new winning system at the club"?

Mate, you act like winning is forever.
It's not.
You do it for as long as you can, then you plot a way back.

I don't understand how you don't get that.

 

[Dave Id]

 

[Hodgey09]

Who's doing the evaluating, you?
Who's in a position to evaluate Clarko as a coach, a four time winning premiership coach, at the Hawks.
Who's going to say, "Yup, he's out of his depth these days, unwilling or unable to create a new winning system at the club"?

Mate, you act like winning is forever.
It's not.
You do it for as long as you can, then you plot a way back.

I don't understand how you don't get that.

Yep, I'll be doing the evaluating as I've clearly sated.

Once again...

Merely stating a solitary point.

Coaches shouldn't be judged on prior achievements, they should be judged on the here and now.

We've won 2 out of the last 9, barely given a yelp bar a quarter against Adelaide and are staring down the barrel of 0-4 in the new season while bottom of the ladder.

Surely as a fan you'd want whoever is in charge of evaluating the coach/coaching structures etc to assess whether the best systems are in place?

 

[tige19]

No not at all mate, just think the Ranieri sacking is a good parallel to highlight the fact that it isn't ridiculous to evaluate where Clarkson is taking us despite the amazing things he's achieved previously that we'll all be forever grateful for.

A bit of a difference with Ranieri, he has been sacked by multiple clubs. He is as astute as any, but there has always been questions on his character and that's something you can't compare with Clarko.

Clarko is more of the sir Alex standard I would think, he has earned the right to do and say and act as he pleases much like Sir Alex did.

 

[Pessimistic]

So we are rebuilding.

Theres no coach with a better record in this than Clarko 2005-2010 (when we were 1 from 7 and still sneaked into the finals- keeping Jeffrey quiet

Theres even less available coaches with even potentially that record.

Clarko and his admin team that is

 

[Pessimistic]

Yep, I'll be doing the evaluating as I've clearly sated.

Once again...

Merely stating a solitary point.

Coaches shouldn't be judged on prior achievements, they should be judged on the here and now.

We've won 2 out of the last 9, barely given a yelp bar a quarter against Adelaide and are staring down the barrel of 0-4 in the new season while bottom of the ladder.

Surely as a fan you'd want whoever is in charge of evaluating the coach/coaching structures etc to assess whether the best systems are in place?

So how would you evaluate a potential Clarko replacement ?, particularly as the new guy would have this media pack enjoying every percieved setback for Hawthorn.

If not on past performance.

You'd be trading a slightly unknown for a completely unknown

 

[Hodgey09]

So how would you evaluate a potential Clarko replacement ?, particularly as the new guy would have this media pack enjoying every percieved setback for Hawthorn.

If not on past performance.

You'd be trading a slightly unknown for a completely unknown

I wouldn't whatsoever, I'd trust the people in charge of doing just that at hawthorn to do their job and do it well.

I love Clarkson and he's brought us more success than I think its safe to say anyone could ever have dreamed of as a football fan.

But right now and throughout a lot of 2016, there is a steadily increasing number of reasons for the powers that be to simply do their job and assess whether the current coaching situation as a whole is as good as it can be.

If the powers that be decide that is simply a rough patch at the moment and Clarkson and all other staff are the right people for the job then fantastic, lets ride out the rough patch and look forward to the future.

If they decide the opposite, then hopefully thats because they've seen that a better system/individual/etc can be put in place.

The only view I'm trying to put forward as nothing more than a fan is I hope the powers that be at the club are ensuring all aspects of the club, including coach/staff are the best that they can be in 2017 and that past achievements aren't playing too great of a role in that process.

 

[Mr Lizard]

there is a steadily increasing number of reasons for the powers that be to simply do their job

still just the one reason, it's their job.

 

[Pessimistic]

I wouldn't whatsoever, I'd trust the people in charge of doing just that at hawthorn to do their job and do it well.

I love Clarkson and he's brought us more success than I think its safe to say anyone could ever have dreamed of as a football fan.

But right now and throughout a lot of 2016, there is a steadily increasing number of reasons for the powers that be to simply do their job and assess whether the current coaching situation as a whole is as good as it can be.

If the powers that be decide that is simply a rough patch at the moment and Clarkson and all other staff are the right people for the job then fantastic, lets ride out the rough patch and look forward to the future.

If they decide the opposite, then hopefully thats because they've seen that a better system/individual/etc can be put in place.

The only view I'm trying to put forward as nothing more than a fan is I hope the powers that be at the club are ensuring all aspects of the club, including coach/staff are the best that they can be in 2017 and that past achievements aren't playing too great of a role in that process.

I'm trusting them too why wouldn't you?

My point is Clarko and his team is a great rebuilding team. No reason why they can't repeat and they have the cohunes to tell the media pack to go forth

More concerned they don't overstretch establishing dingley on that front