Uncontracted Shai Bolton [OOC 2021]

Remove this Banner Ad

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
38,901
41,316
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
I've read this from carlton fans severally times and I still don't understand it
Not sure why - it's really not that difficult.

1613969962033.png
'

Here are the top 29 picks of the 2016 draft.

All we can see from this is that the clubs that picked before Richmond at 29 rated the player they selected at that pick, higher than they rated Bolton.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that other clubs didn't rate Bolton as a first round selection.

It's entirely possible that every single club rated Bolton as a first round pick. It's also entirely possible that no club did.
 

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
38,901
41,316
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
So clubs could have rated him as a 1st but none took him in the 1st..........and then quite a few didn't even rate him to use a 2nd on him either.

BUT they still could have rated him as a 1st rounder.........

Ok.

It's an interesting alternate universe you live in I will say.
I really don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand. Since when did using basic logic equate to living in an alternate universe?

Can you please show me where Essendon rated Bolton in the draft?
How about Carlton?
West Coast?
Hawthorn?

Any club?
 

Marcel Proust

"Oohh WADA ooga booga" {Jul 11 2013}
Sep 6, 2018
14,394
23,390
#BigBigSound
AFL Club
Richmond
Not sure why - it's really not that difficult.

View attachment 1062886'

Here are the top 29 picks of the 2016 draft.

All we can see from this is that the clubs that picked before Richmond at 29 rated the player they selected at that pick, higher than they rated Bolton.

There is absolutely nothing to suggest that other clubs didn't rate Bolton as a first round selection.

It's entirely possible that every single club rated Bolton as a first round pick. It's also entirely possible that no club did.
So, to clarify. The sentence

"There were 28 players rated above bolton" you don't agree is factual?
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
21,593
21,885
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
His potential in the draft pool was clearly higher than that position.

Tigers pulled the trigger ceiling v floor
Every phantom draft that I have read had him in the top 30. Its not like experts thought he would be a 3rd or 4rd round pick and Richmond reached for him. He fell exactly where most rated him.

At 29 he is a long way off the steal in the draft - more impressive was the Cats taking Stewart at 40, Freo taking Ryan at 66 or the Roos taking Zurhaar in the rookie draft.
 

Marcel Proust

"Oohh WADA ooga booga" {Jul 11 2013}
Sep 6, 2018
14,394
23,390
#BigBigSound
AFL Club
Richmond
Every phantom draft that I have read had him in the top 30. Its not like experts thought he would be a 3rd or 4rd round pick and Richmond reached for him. He fell exactly where most rated him.

At 29 he is a long way off the steal in the draft - more impressive was the Cats taking Stewart at 40, Freo taking Ryan at 66 or the Roos taking Zurhaar in the rookie draft.
Yeah but he was rated around there not cause he wasn't good enough at football.

But cause he was very light and it was unknown if he would reach his potential

On talent he was a lot higher than his draft position.

I'm assuming drafting people way up ceiling v potential and the tigers were bold
 

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
38,901
41,316
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
So, to clarify. The sentence

"There were 28 players rated above bolton" you don't agree is factual?
I'm suggesting it's incorrect to suggest that no club rated him a first round pick simply because he wasn't picked in the first round.

Whatever discussion beyond that that you're having in your head can stay there.
 

Marcel Proust

"Oohh WADA ooga booga" {Jul 11 2013}
Sep 6, 2018
14,394
23,390
#BigBigSound
AFL Club
Richmond
I'm suggesting it's incorrect to suggest that no club rated him a first round pick simply because he wasn't picked in the first round.

Whatever discussion beyond that that you're having in your head can stay there.
I understand the 'logic' and it's technical correct. All those clubs could have rated bolton at pick 1.

It's not iron clad. But it's a fairly safe bet. Given most the leagues teams overlooked him
 

Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
21,593
21,885
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
OK, a bit of trolling is fun for you.

Enjoy whatever point it is you're making. Good bye
Trolling??? The facts don’t back up what Tiger posters are saying. You can nod your head at the nonsense being posted while others will call it out.

I like facts.
 

Obeanie1

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 26, 2007
23,226
18,479
Darwin
AFL Club
West Coast
I really don't know why this is such a difficult concept to understand. Since when did using basic logic equate to living in an alternate universe?

Can you please show me where Essendon rated Bolton in the draft?
How about Carlton?
West Coast?
Hawthorn?

Any club?
Sure.....the player clubs picked within the first 28 picks they all rated higher than Bolton.

Therefore he wasn't rated as a 1st round pick.

That isn't logical?
 

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
38,901
41,316
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
Sure.....the player clubs picked within the first 28 picks they all rated higher than Bolton.
Who is "they"?

Therefore he wasn't rated as a 1st round pick.
I'll ask again, what have you got to prove this?

That he wasn't picked in the first round isn't proof no matter how many times you want to post it and ignore logic, for reasons I've already explained previously.

That isn't logical?
No, it isn't.
 

Obeanie1

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 26, 2007
23,226
18,479
Darwin
AFL Club
West Coast
Who is "they"?



I'll ask again, what have you got to prove this?

That he wasn't picked in the first round isn't proof no matter how many times you want to post it and ignore logic, for reasons I've already explained previously.



No, it isn't.
Well its logical to some..........but not you.

If a club truely rated him a 1st round talent at the time they would have picked him 1st round.

But he went pick 29........not pick 19.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
38,901
41,316
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
If a club truely rated him a 1st round talent at the time they would have picked him 1st round.
Not if they rated someone else higher at the time.

How is that so difficult to understand?

But he went pick 29........not pick 19.
He sure did. And despite that, basic logic suggests its entirely possible every club rated him as a first round pick. It's even possible every club had him inside their top 10.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask one last time. What have you got by way of evidence to suggest you know where clubs rated him in the draft? Or even one club?

And please - for your own sake as well as ours - come back with something a little better than "he was pick 29". I've already shown why that's a bogus nonsensical argument.
 

Dr Tigris

Premium Platinum
Aug 19, 2009
7,714
19,387
Canberra
AFL Club
Richmond
Trolling??? The facts don’t back up what Tiger posters are saying. You can nod your head at the nonsense being posted while others will call it out.

I like facts.
What facts?

Some posters saying Shai was seen as very talented, but immature and unwilling to do the defensive hard work. And he and club developed his game until he is a well rounded player.

I know it's fun to be contrarian and dismissive of other posters, showing your genius and knowledge of 'facts'. But when you do it to people talking of what actually happened then you are just trolling. You have no facts. Look carefully at the post you respond to if you want to diss people. If you find it's a sub-discussion about how a player has developed by supporters of that club then just walk away.
 

Obeanie1

Brownlow Medallist
Jul 26, 2007
23,226
18,479
Darwin
AFL Club
West Coast
Not if they rated someone else higher at the time.

How is that so difficult to understand?



He sure did. And despite that, basic logic suggests its entirely possible every club rated him as a first round pick. It's even possible every club had him inside their top 10.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask one last time. What have you got by way of evidence to suggest you know where clubs rated him in the draft? Or even one club?

And please - for your own sake as well as ours - come back with something a little better than "he was pick 29". I've already shown why that's a bogus nonsensical argument.
Not going to die in a ditch splitting hairs and playing word games.

The bloke went 29 not 1st round. If a club valued him higher they would have picked him higher and ahead of who they did. But they didn't.

On draft night no one picked him in the 1st and plenty passed on him in the 2nd round too. Thems the facts no matter what BS and misinformation a club may have said pre draft night.

Talk is cheap and clubs play games with other clubs pre draft night on who they rate. The AFL encourage it as it sells papers / clicks. When a club finally pulls the trigger on draft night THAT's when you find out who they really rate. No more smoke and mirrors and pre draft night PR strategy. They make a decision and show their hand.

If you want to fluff around basing a view on the pre draft 'smoke and mirrors game' good for you. I'll base my view on what clubs actually did.
 

Jeremias

Moderator
Sep 26, 2004
38,901
41,316
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
MUFC, LAL, PSG
Not going to die in a ditch splitting hairs and playing word games.
No word game here. Just basic logic which continues to elude you.

The bloke went 29 not 1st round. If a club valued him higher they would have picked him higher and ahead of who they did. But they didn't.
You're completely missing the point here.

Why would they pick him if they rated someone else higher?

Where a club picked a player doesn't necessarily equate to where they had said player on their draft board pre-draft. It's really that simple.

Brisbane picked Berry at 17. It's also entirely possible that they (along with some or all other clubs) rated him inside their top 10.

Same with every single other player in the picture above showing the top 29 picks.

Let's use an example. Look at Adelaide who had one pick in that range and took Gallucci at 15.

Why couldn't their draft board have looked something like this?

1. McGrath
2. Taranto
3. McCluggage
4. Ainsworth
5. Setterfield
6. SPS
7. Scrimshaw
8. Logue
9. Brodie
10. Bowes
11. Florent
12. Simpkin
13. Venables
14. Perryman
15. Gallucci
16. Bolton

Bolton in the first round but passed on because the player they rated higher was still on the board.

Rinse and repeat for every single club.

It's not a difficult concept to comprehend. At least it shouldn't be.

On draft night no one picked him in the 1st and plenty passed on him in the 2nd round too. Thems the facts no matter what BS and misinformation a club may have said pre draft night.
I'm not basing this on anything any club has said. In fact you're the one who seems to think you know where clubs rated him...yet you've been unable to give me even the slightest bit of evidence to back it up.

Feel free to drop it in here whenever you get around to it.

Talk is cheap and clubs play games with other clubs pre draft night on who they rate. The AFL encourage it as it sells papers / clicks. When a club finally pulls the trigger on draft night THAT's when you find out who they really rate. No more smoke and mirrors and pre draft night PR strategy. They make a decision and show their hand.
Not really interested in discussing your conspiracy theories. It's not even remotely relevant to the discussion.

If you want to fluff around basing a view on the pre draft 'smoke and mirrors game' good for you. I'll base my view on what clubs actually did.
No smoke and mirrors here. As I said before, just applying some basic logic which somehow seems beyond you but hopefully the above example makes the obvious a little clearer.

You're looking at the draft order and not applying even a semblance of critical thought to it. I'm not sure that's something to boast about.
 

Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
21,593
21,885
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
What facts?

Some posters saying Shai was seen as very talented, but immature and unwilling to do the defensive hard work. And he and club developed his game until he is a well rounded player.

I know it's fun to be contrarian and dismissive of other posters, showing your genius and knowledge of 'facts'. But when you do it to people talking of what actually happened then you are just trolling. You have no facts. Look carefully at the post you respond to if you want to diss people. If you find it's a sub-discussion about how a player has developed by supporters of that club then just walk away.
Ok you want facts?

Fact - most had Bolton rated around 30 in the phantom drafts I have read.

Fact - he went around 30 at 29.

Fact - it wasn’t a reach to take him at 29.

Making out that the Tigers took a punt on him at 29 - where most rated him - is going to get called out - no matter how sooky the Tiger posters get.
 

Dr Tigris

Premium Platinum
Aug 19, 2009
7,714
19,387
Canberra
AFL Club
Richmond
Ok you want facts?

Fact - most had Bolton rated around 30 in the phantom drafts I have read.

Fact - he went around 30 at 29.

Fact - it wasn’t a reach to take him at 29.

Making out that the Tigers took a punt on him at 29 - where most rated him - is going to get called out - no matter how sooky the Tiger posters get.
Mate. My post you replied to was one of group where we were talking about how Shai had improved himself from when he was drafted. Good on you for your facts. Very good facts. In fact they are FACTS I cannot disagree with.

Absolutely nothing to do with my post, or what I was replying to, or the ones replying to me.

Enjoy your FACTual outrage over people thinking that a talented young footballer has improved himself over the few years he's bene in the AFL.

Yep he went at 29 - well spotted. Initially it was obvious why he went there. Heaps of talent, but a very shallow game. He's vastly broadened and deepened his game since. And your point is???
 

Wild Bill

Brownlow Medallist
May 28, 2013
21,593
21,885
AFL Club
North Melbourne
Other Teams
Seattle Seahawks
Mate. My post you replied to was one of group where we were talking about how Shai had improved himself from when he was drafted. Good on you for your facts. Very good facts. In fact they are FACTS I cannot disagree with.

Absolutely nothing to do with my post, or what I was replying to, or the ones replying to me.

Enjoy your FACTual outrage over people thinking that a talented young footballer has improved himself over the few years he's bene in the AFL.

Yep he went at 29 - well spotted. Initially it was obvious why he went there. Heaps of talent, but a very shallow game. He's vastly broadened and deepened his game since. And your point is???
My point is how I can give the Tigers development system more credit? Pick 29!!
 

Dockeroo

Club Legend
Nov 1, 2019
1,678
3,650
AFL Club
Fremantle
Not going to die in a ditch splitting hairs and playing word games.

The bloke went 29 not 1st round. If a club valued him higher they would have picked him higher and ahead of who they did. But they didn't.

On draft night no one picked him in the 1st and plenty passed on him in the 2nd round too. Thems the facts no matter what BS and misinformation a club may have said pre draft night.

Talk is cheap and clubs play games with other clubs pre draft night on who they rate. The AFL encourage it as it sells papers / clicks. When a club finally pulls the trigger on draft night THAT's when you find out who they really rate. No more smoke and mirrors and pre draft night PR strategy. They make a decision and show their hand.

If you want to fluff around basing a view on the pre draft 'smoke and mirrors game' good for you. I'll base my view on what clubs actually did.
Carlton picked Jack Carroll at 41 last year. Using your logic, they could have rated him a top 2 pick after Corey Durdin.
EDIT: this reply should have been for Jeremias
 

Remove this Banner Ad