Autopsy Shameful game V Dees - tell it like it is right here.

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Snake_Baker

L'enfant terrible
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Apr 24, 2013
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The Unicornia Reactants

First 20 secs, Oliver gets a free-kick, finds Petracca free on the wing, he hits another target just as easily. Oliver should be forced to go long from the get-go. If he goes long down the middle, there's a risk we will get it back and all of a sudden there's acres of space for us to expose. But, since there were loose players everywhere they went wide and could get away with it.

We were simply not switched on.
A still image that sums up modern football.

10 seconds in and the players have all stopped to look at the umpire because none of them know why the whistle has been blown for a free kick.

1597093114864.png
 

Hazey1977

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Mar 2, 2008
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First 20 secs, Oliver gets a free-kick, finds Petracca free on the wing, he hits another target just as easily. Oliver should be forced to go long from the get-go. If he goes long down the middle, there's a risk we will get it back and all of a sudden there's acres of space for us to expose. But, since there were loose players everywhere they went wide and could get away with it.

We were simply not switched on.
Not to mention the bike with the headband on running back or to the wing on the topside with no one marking him

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As well as Langdon having about 50m space on the topside as Goldy peeled back, I assume to fill the hole. If that's the case a HFF should've pressed up onto Langdon?
 

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TheBrownDog
Mar 14, 2002
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A still image that sums up modern football.

10 seconds in and the players have all stopped to look at the umpire because none of them know why the whistle has been blown for a free kick.

View attachment 932544
Like I said last week, the only worth my interest in this pic is the Blue and white stripes. Everything else about AFL puts me off.
 

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TheBrownDog
Mar 14, 2002
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It certainly feels worse. However:-

2006
R1 Loss Port Adelaide 41 points
R2 Loss Geelong 69 points
R3 Loss Collingwood 77 points
R7 Loss Adelaide 56 points
R8 Loss Fremantle 35 points
R11 Loss Richmond 35 points
R16 Loss Adelaide 72 points
R17 Loss Geelong 30 points
R20 Loss Melbourne 50 points
R22 Loss Collingwood 68 points

Not pretty. However, maybe, we'll outdo it this year in the end.
P.S. The following year, we reached the Preliminary Final!
Orange Peanut i think rd 3 was when I left at the 20 minute mark of the 3rd quarter

But it could have been another Filth flogging. They all blur
 

krakouers85

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Sep 13, 2011
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It certainly feels worse. However:-

2006
R1 Loss Port Adelaide 41 points
R2 Loss Geelong 69 points
R3 Loss Collingwood 77 points
R7 Loss Adelaide 56 points
R8 Loss Fremantle 35 points
R11 Loss Richmond 35 points
R16 Loss Adelaide 72 points
R17 Loss Geelong 30 points
R20 Loss Melbourne 50 points
R22 Loss Collingwood 68 points

Not pretty. However, maybe, we'll outdo it this year in the end.
P.S. The following year, we reached the Preliminary Final!
Great, so all we need is rumours of the AFL sending us to.... hang on...
 

Ischenko

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Jun 1, 2012
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Happy to grant the Port game as us walking over a switched-off side, but not the Richmond or Collingwood games - in both cases, nothing about our opponents suggested they hadn't come to play, rather it was fairly clear that our highly aggressive intent and playing style had them rattled (the moment that stood out for me was Pendlebury panic-handballing as we converged on him; completely out of character for a player who, on a good day or bad, usually looks like he has all the time in the world to pick out the best option despite the congestion around him). It's easy to look back and say the opposition were off because they lost a few afterwards, but based on how they looked in those games, it wasn't their lack of pressure that led us to win, but the extent to which we applied our own. (The Port game is a good contrast - as good as we were, everything was easy for us because Port didn't put any pressure on us at all.)

Questions should definitely be asked if those in charge placed undue emphasis on these few great wins whilst turning a blind eye to some equally poor showings elsewhere in those years. But neither should good performances be written off as the result of our opponents' form. The Richmond and Collingwood wins last year were visibly driven by our manic pressure and aggression. Can we depend upon that kind of intense performance every week? Probably not, and I don't think it's unreasonable of Shaw to be trying out various different gameplans to determine what's actually possible with our playing group. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't start to be alarmed about the structural issues that only seem to be getting worse as the season progresses...
Good post. Also, Port needed to win that game to lock in a finals spot. Doubt they were completely switched off? Or maybe echoes of us vs Port last round of 2008?
 

Caracas

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Good post. Also, Port needed to win that game to lock in a finals spot. Doubt they were completely switched off? Or maybe echoes of us vs Port last round of 2008?
I was at the Port game. Regardless of how Port played, we were just electric. We were flying all over the park. Everything seemed to come together on the day. We could easily have won by 120+ points - we were that good.


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Moti

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I was at the Port game. Regardless of how Port played, we were just electric. We were flying all over the park. Everything seemed to come together on the day. We could easily have won by 120+ points - we were that good.


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The Saints beat Richmond to a pulp in 2017. Spikes in form happen, drops in form happen, but a trend tends to ignore all of these things to give perspective.

When you look at the best teams, you look at our team, you compare the strengths and you cannot see where we get an advantage. That is because as a team we do not have consistently good players. Zurhaar can kick 5 goals in a game and tackle 11 times against the eventual premier, then he can play like he has for the majority of this year. It isn't that they don't have some talent, it is that they don't show it enough. Pretty much all of our best players have glaring issues with their game (Cunnington speed and running ability, Brown contested marking etc).

Do we have skill and pace off HB? No
Do we have polish coming out of the middle? Higgins maybe but not much else
Do we have line breakers in the middle? Maybe Polec, but not much else
Do we have forward crumbers who provide pressure? No

We lack a lot, no 3 week period will cover that up.
 

Event Horizon

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I was at the Port game. Regardless of how Port played, we were just electric. We were flying all over the park. Everything seemed to come together on the day. We could easily have won by 120+ points - we were that good.


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Also don't forget Port was in the eight prior to that game, and missed the finals as a result. It wasn't a dead rubber for them.
 

ferball

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The Polec , hall and pittard transactions in that period regardless of why they were recruited are not rebuilding acquisitions, it spent major currency if we wanted to get out of high first round to avoid having to use it on thomas we should have traded it for future picks, potential pick upgrades, to get above a potential bidding threshold or for a longer term prospects. Any rebuilding ground that commenced in 16 and 17 was not followed up on by this particular run of recruiting. Effectively we stuck our dick in halfway.


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No. They weren't.

The 2017 ones were. In a minor, rebuild the running engine of the club, sort of way. But remember what Scott said. It wasn't a rebuild it was a reset.

People use these terms without thinking about them. If you rebuild a side you start from scratch and basically build up a spine. (If that is what we are doing then Brown may be gone but so will Taz, Cunners and Goldy.). After 2016 we needed to equip our midfield and forward line with skill and pace and that is what we have tried to do. We failed. And that is probably why Scott and his footy dept are gone as much as anything.

At the end of 2018 we delisted 12 players including rookies. (On the back of twenty over the previous two years.) We had to take on other players, and the best we could get to cover those 12 players. Trading for future picks would have seen us with TT, Bailey Scott and maybe someone else to come later in the draft. No way we could have foreseen Taylor sliding so far. So we had to take on the like of Pittard, Polec, Tyson and Hall simply to have a full list.

We won 13 games anyway. I haven't checked but it may be the only year in AFL history that a team winning 13 games missed finals. (Ironic given Brad's comments about 12 games and finals a few years earlier.) And if you want to be campaigner about it the reason we missed finals is down to one player.

Jack Ziebell missed enough gettable goals in games we lost to change the result more than once. He's the captain.

It wasn't a false dawn, we weren't lucky and mediocre. Our captain let us down.

We didn't stick our dick in halfway. If we'd done the whole way then we would have got rid of Brown, Taz and Cunners just as they hit their absolute best years and we'd still be languishing where we are now as our kids got flogged repeatedly.

There is an argument to be made that Larkey playing from early in 2019 would have seen us play finals. Which is another reason that contributes to Brad not being here. If Maj hadn't had all those issues come to a head last year would have been very different too. And under Shaw we were finals quality side. We had some bad losses but every side does. Go look thru our 90s results in premiership years. There are some shockers.

None the less our win loss ratio under him was good enough for top six. We finished where we finished because we lost seven of our first nine games and only won the tenth on the back of the coach being sacked. For the last five years only two or three games have separated the team in fourth and the team in fourteenth. The closeness of the comp is unheard in its history really.

So...

It's not the list as such. It is depth and development. No one would consider LMac gone right now would they. In the lead up to round one tho...

We need careful list management and a plan for generational change over the next five years. But that doesn't mean we don't chase premierships every year. We need to fix particular holes in our list, tho Shaw appears to be doing that even with Hayden and Bonar.

If the people running the footy department don't se that now then we will be in for years of pain.
 

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TheBrownDog
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I was thinking how lucky we are not to be able to attend games this season. Normally, after a game like that I'd be saying to myself I won't go next week, only to still go anyway. No such decisions today, and thank fu**.
Or decide not to go and pull the win out of the air that beats a Top 4 team
 

shintemaster

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Aug 24, 2002
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But remember what Scott said. It wasn't a rebuild it was a reset.

People use these terms without thinking about them. If you rebuild a side you start from scratch and basically build up a spine. (If that is what we are doing then Brown may be gone but so will Taz, Cunners and Goldy.).
While I'm comfortable with much of what you say I simply can't agree with this. There is no rule book that says a rebuild has to involve removing every senior player. You replace those that can't perform at a standard and don't offer the right mix to suit the rest of the list. You don't just get rid of them because you think they might not be around when you're next at the pointy end - if the Dogs had done that they wouldn't have won a premiership. You trade if you see more value in than out (in the long run) but it doesn't mean you trade everyone just because you think you're little chance in 2021. TLDR - I don't agree that trading Brown means that Taz, Cunners & Goldy also need to go. Each player and position on its merits, including backup on the list, value being offered, contract value, onfield & off field leadership and a raft of other things. We'd be nuts to see off Goldy unless someone was offering something too good to refuse and he wanted to go, he's in arguably the best form of his career.

Edit: I know that's not the entirety of your argument but it just stood out to me. FWIW I reckon "reset vs rebuild" is mostly just PR waffle. To be honest I think that clubs are rarely honest anyway. In today's climate only a complete failure of a club would even hint they need 4-5+ years to rebuild. Evidence is that this is simply not the case.
 

ferball

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While I'm comfortable with much of what you say I simply can't agree with this. There is no rule book that says a rebuild has to involve removing every senior player. You replace those that can't perform at a standard and don't offer the right mix to suit the rest of the list. You don't just get rid of them because you think they might not be around when you're next at the pointy end - if the Dogs had done that they wouldn't have won a premiership. You trade if you see more value in than out (in the long run) but it doesn't mean you trade everyone just because you think you're little chance in 2021. TLDR - I don't agree that trading Brown means that Taz, Cunners & Goldy also need to go. Each player and position on its merits, including backup on the list, value being offered, contract value, onfield & off field leadership and a raft of other things. We'd be nuts to see off Goldy unless someone was offering something too good to refuse and he wanted to go, he's in arguably the best form of his career.

Edit: I know that's not the entirety of your argument but it just stood out to me. FWIW I reckon "reset vs rebuild" is mostly just PR waffle. To be honest I think that clubs are rarely honest anyway. In today's climate only a complete failure of a club would even hint they need 4-5+ years to rebuild. Evidence is that this is simply not the case.
Maybe. I'm just sick of hearing about it. After two if the last four seasons we've delisted 10+ players. Plus another fifteen or so in the other seasons.

If someone seriously offered two first rounds, one in the top five, for Brown then I can understand why you'd take it, at any time. But anything less than that for the person who scored more than anyone else in the comp over three years is pretty foolish. It halves our scoring power on the off chance some perennially injured kid taken at pick 30 might be as good in the next five years.

Clubs shouldn't rebuild. Look at our kpds. We have Taz, Daw, Walker and Mackay. I dunno about Durdin, even last year. So we need one in their early 20s now and one in the next couple of years. That's a process of cycling thru players. Not rebuilding.

I get rebuilding parts of the list as well in conjunction with that but it's more of an emergency response IMO.
 

shintemaster

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If someone seriously offered two first rounds, one in the top five, for Brown then I can understand why you'd take it, at any time. But anything less than that for the person who scored more than anyone else in the comp over three years is pretty foolish. It halves our scoring power on the off chance some perennially injured kid taken at pick 30 might be as good in the next five years.

Clubs shouldn't rebuild. Look at our kpds. We have Taz, Daw, Walker and Mackay. I dunno about Durdin, even last year. So we need one in their early 20s now and one in the next couple of years. That's a process of cycling thru players. Not rebuilding.
Agree with all of that. Has to be about value though. You don't trade Brown for example unless the offer is great value and you know you have on the list - or the capability of having very shortly - the right mix of players to make up that differential.

I'm with you in general, the idea of a root and branch scorched earth rebuild is nonsense nowadays. You refresh from the draft and you fill in the gaps, we haven't done bits of it that well but we're hardly alone in that. My personal view is that with a fully fit list there's really only 4-5 players to change and the whole complexion of the team changes. As always though the trick is getting those 4-5 in before you lose another 4-5 out the other end through attrition, age, other clubs and massive form changes.
 

Themanbun

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Apr 19, 2019
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No. They weren't.

The 2017 ones were. In a minor, rebuild the running engine of the club, sort of way. But remember what Scott said. It wasn't a rebuild it was a reset.

People use these terms without thinking about them. If you rebuild a side you start from scratch and basically build up a spine. (If that is what we are doing then Brown may be gone but so will Taz, Cunners and Goldy.). After 2016 we needed to equip our midfield and forward line with skill and pace and that is what we have tried to do. We failed. And that is probably why Scott and his footy dept are gone as much as anything.

At the end of 2018 we delisted 12 players including rookies. (On the back of twenty over the previous two years.) We had to take on other players, and the best we could get to cover those 12 players. Trading for future picks would have seen us with TT, Bailey Scott and maybe someone else to come later in the draft. No way we could have foreseen Taylor sliding so far. So we had to take on the like of Pittard, Polec, Tyson and Hall simply to have a full list.

We won 13 games anyway. I haven't checked but it may be the only year in AFL history that a team winning 13 games missed finals. (Ironic given Brad's comments about 12 games and finals a few years earlier.) And if you want to be campaigner about it the reason we missed finals is down to one player.

Jack Ziebell missed enough gettable goals in games we lost to change the result more than once. He's the captain.

It wasn't a false dawn, we weren't lucky and mediocre. Our captain let us down.

We didn't stick our dick in halfway. If we'd done the whole way then we would have got rid of Brown, Taz and Cunners just as they hit their absolute best years and we'd still be languishing where we are now as our kids got flogged repeatedly.

There is an argument to be made that Larkey playing from early in 2019 would have seen us play finals. Which is another reason that contributes to Brad not being here. If Maj hadn't had all those issues come to a head last year would have been very different too. And under Shaw we were finals quality side. We had some bad losses but every side does. Go look thru our 90s results in premiership years. There are some shockers.

None the less our win loss ratio under him was good enough for top six. We finished where we finished because we lost seven of our first nine games and only won the tenth on the back of the coach being sacked. For the last five years only two or three games have separated the team in fourth and the team in fourteenth. The closeness of the comp is unheard in its history really.

So...

It's not the list as such. It is depth and development. No one would consider LMac gone right now would they. In the lead up to round one tho...

We need careful list management and a plan for generational change over the next five years. But that doesn't mean we don't chase premierships every year. We need to fix particular holes in our list, tho Shaw appears to be doing that even with Hayden and Bonar.

If the people running the footy department don't se that now then we will be in for years of pain.
Really really good post.

I haven't got much else to add either than, well, I hope that if we 'rebuild' that we end up with a FB better than Tarrant, and extractor better than Cunnington, an inside-outside mid better than Higgins, a ruck better than Goldy, and a FF better than Ben Brown. We have an elite spine *now*, but if we 'rebuild' with an aim of flag in 4 years, we are essentially hoping that we'll have better options in those positions 4 years from now.

I personally don't see it. Larkey better than BB? Maybe. A ruck better than Goldy? Nope. An extractor better than Cunnington? Unlikely. An inside-outside mid better than Higgins? Plausible. A full back better than Tarrant? I don't see that either.

In fact, I see a pure long-term view as is being spruiked throughout BigFooty as almost as high risk as a pure short-term view. A 'refresh' as you call it, one eye on the short-mid term, one eye on the long-term is my preferred option.
 

Ischenko

Club Legend
Jun 1, 2012
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I was thinking how lucky we are not to be able to attend games this season. Normally, after a game like that I'd be saying to myself I won't go next week, only to still go anyway. No such decisions today, and thank fu**.
I wish I could say my liver is thanking me, but it's not. Don't need to shell out for flat schooners of mid-strength and sneak sips from my hip flask:
I can get shitfaced in my nice warm isolated living room. A mixed blessing.
 

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