Shayna Jack:- Will her case prove Australia's hypocrisy?

Aeglos

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Funny. About ten years back I would see ASADA at most powerlifting meets I competed at. I saw pensioners doing their first competition being tested. One night ASADA came to the gym we trained at and tested all members of our squad - all amateur lifters and only one at a world level. Pretty sure world level lifter had ASADA turn up to her workplace. What a waste of money and resources. Doubt it has changed. At the same time I knew someone who was involved in state level cycling - they said they never saw ASADA.
They even got old Wim!
The guy is in his mid to late 80s!
 

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RussellEbertHandball

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For a country of 25 million to be on par in terms of doping violations with the USA which has over 12 times the population, as well as France and Italy is an appalling record.

You only need to look at the EFC drug bans to understand how much Australia hides its drugs in sport problem. How were the 34 Essendon players caught? Not by ASADA. In fact ASADA declaration forms were fraudulently completed - nothing to declare.

Pathetic to hear officials talk about tainted meat, mushrooms or spiked condoms - pathetic. Denial will only make the problem worse.

Again, self delusional apologetic nationalist spin. Everybody is dishonest, Australia honest. Everybody else hiding results, Australia sublimely transparent.
Before I judge based on raw numbers, I want to see what number of tests are done per 1,000 athletes in each country and also the violation rate per 1,000 athletes in general and per 1,000 athletes per sport, otherwise raw numbers don't mean much.

There seem to be a lot of body builders and power lifters caught in the Australian figures. Is that a deliberate ploy by ASADA to target them, because its a sport with lots of positives, so catching them looks good for ASADA and means their funding keeps coming?? Do the US and Italians target body builders and power lifters at the same rate as ASADA do, or is their a huge discrepancy??

I'm not naive enough to say there isn't a decent level of doping in Australia - we pride ourselves in being world class in a lot of areas in sport, so doping wouldn't be an exception - but lets compare apples with apples and get some detailed data to make knowledgeable comparisons. As I said in my previous post to you, in US pro sports there is wide spread doping and USADA don't do testing as those sporting bodies haven't signed the WADA Code. From USADA's website. The US is home of private doping - communist / ex communist nations are home of state sponsored doping.


Is USADA responsible for testing American collegiate NCAA athletes or professional sport leagues like the NFL, NHL, MLB, or NBA?
Generally not. Most professional sports leagues and the NCAA are not WADA Code signatories, and their anti-doping programs are conducted privately in-house by these organizations. One exception is professional athletes who also participate in Olympic sports (e.g. basketball, hockey). These athletes are subject to USADA testing in the lead up to the Games. USADA is responsible for the testing program and results management for athletes in Olympic, Paralympic, Pan American, and Parapan American sport. Please see the previous question to understand what constitutes Olympic, Paralympic, Pan American, and Parapan American sport. USADA also conducts testing by contract for sports and/or events that fall outside this group, such as professional boxing, dance, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu


 

deathevocation

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They even got old Wim!
The guy is in his mid to late 80s!
Ripping bloke. When you say got him do you mean he returned a positive? If so, what for? First met him at 5 Star around 2001. He was squatting and yelling abuse at some young blokes in the gym. Hilarious stuff.
 

Aeglos

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There seem to be a lot of body builders and power lifters in the Australian figures. Is that a deliberate ploy by ASADA to target them, because its a sport with lots of failures so catching them looks good for ASADA and means their funding keeps coming?? Do the US and Italians target body builders and power lifters at the same rate as ASADA do, or is their a huge discrepancy??
I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case.
ASADA would also work off tip-offs, of which I'd imagine in those sports there are more.

There was a period probably 24-36 months ago now where Powerlifting Australia (prior to their split from the IPF) were looking like losing their IOC recognition due to the high % of +ve tests. Some friends competing at the time thought that once this was made public that the testers all of a sudden starting testing more athletes that everyone knew/thought were clean rather than the ones they suspected were using.
Wouldn't be surprised if politics/manipulating similar to this occurred in every sporting organisation. Nothing better to tell everyone how clean you are by saying you conducted X amount of tests and they were all -ve
 

Aeglos

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Ripping bloke. When you say got him do you mean he returned a positive? If so, what for? First met him at 5 Star around 2001. He was squatting and yelling abuse at some young blokes in the gym. Hilarious stuff.
I just remember seeing him competing at a GPC or CAPO event a couple of years back and asking people why and they said he'd been booted from PA.
Though tbh I can't remember if it was from a doping violation or because of PA's "associating with not PA" rules (and he's not on the PA website for current suspensions/sanctions either)
 

RussellEbertHandball

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Yesterday I read this article by Chip Le Grand in Tuesday's Australian. Remember whilst sports are signatories to the WADA Code, they have their own Code which has to be consistent with the WADA Code, they can have extra clauses, conditions and reductions.

The Essendon and Cronulla players were legally assessed under the AFL and NRL anti-doping codes, not the WADA code. Swimming has its own Code.

David Hughes, the Australian Institute of Sport’s chief medical officer and medical director of the Australian Olympic team, says athletes should not take sports supplements unless they are advised to do so by a qualified sports dietitian or doctor. “The key pillars for high-level exercise performance are good nutrition, training well and good sleep,’’ Dr Hughes told The Australian. “Supplements are not an essential part of a high-performance program. “You can walk into a shop in Australia and buy a sports supplement that has contaminants which can be harmful and, if you are a high-performance athlete, put yourself at risk of an adverse analytical finding.”


This will be Jack's defence angle to reduce her sentence.

Within the Swimming Australia anti-doping code that will decide Jack’s fate, there is a specific provision covering contaminated products. Under this provision, an athlete can attract a heavily reduced sanction — anywhere from two years down to a mere reprimand — if they can demonstrate they were at no significant fault.

This provision, adopted from the World Anti-Doping Code, was successfully used last month by an American mixed martial arts athlete who tested positive to LGD-4033. UFC fighter Walt Harris was able to return to competition within four months after he provided US anti-doping authorities with the supplement he was taking. Testing showed it contained traces of LGD-4033, despite not listing it as an ingredient.

Jack’s defence is being led by Melbourne sports law expert Paul Horvath, one of Australia’s leading anti-doping lawyers. As a member of the Australian swim team preparing for this month’s world championships in Korea, Jack should have documented any supplement she was taking and declared it to testers.

The Swimming Australia sports supplement policy, developed in response to the Essendon and Cronulla doping scandals, advises athletes that most supplements have little to no health or performance benefits but carry health and doping risks. It advises them to use brands screened by independent companies that conduct batch testing, to check the list of ingredients against the World Anti-Doping Agency’s list of prohibited substances and to record the brand, supplement name and batch number of anything they consume. The policy warns that meat products from China and Mexico can be contaminated with the banned substance Clenbuterol.

The Australian is not aware of any case of foodstuffs being contaminated by LGD-4033, a substance detectable by testers up to seven days after consumption.
 

RussellEbertHandball

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I wouldn't be surprised if this were the case.
ASADA would also work off tip-offs, of which I'd imagine in those sports there are more.

There was a period probably 24-36 months ago now where Powerlifting Australia (prior to their split from the IPF) were looking like losing their IOC recognition due to the high % of +ve tests. Some friends competing at the time thought that once this was made public that the testers all of a sudden starting testing more athletes that everyone knew/thought were clean rather than the ones they suspected were using.
Wouldn't be surprised if politics/manipulating similar to this occurred in every sporting organisation. Nothing better to tell everyone how clean you are by saying you conducted X amount of tests and they were all -ve
The list of ADRV is from 2016, with lots of positives in the 2 sports I mentioned in my other post, so that time line ties in with the stats.

What has happened the last year or two? Have they lost their IOC recognition
 

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Before I judge based on raw numbers, I want to see what number of tests are done per 1,000 athletes in each country and also the violation rate per 1,000 athletes in general and per 1,000 athletes per sport, otherwise raw numbers don't mean much.

There seem to be a lot of body builders and power lifters caught in the Australian figures. Is that a deliberate ploy by ASADA to target them, because its a sport with lots of positives, so catching them looks good for ASADA and means their funding keeps coming?? Do the US and Italians target body builders and power lifters at the same rate as ASADA do, or is their a huge discrepancy??

I'm not naive enough to say there isn't a decent level of doping in Australia - we pride ourselves in being world class in a lot of areas in sport, so doping wouldn't be an exception - but lets compare apples with apples and get some detailed data to make knowledgeable comparisons. As I said in my previous post to you, in US pro sports there is wide spread doping and USADA don't do testing as those sporting bodies haven't signed the WADA Code. From USADA's website. The US is home of private doping - communist / ex communist nations are home of state sponsored doping.


Is USADA responsible for testing American collegiate NCAA athletes or professional sport leagues like the NFL, NHL, MLB, or NBA?
Generally not. Most professional sports leagues and the NCAA are not WADA Code signatories, and their anti-doping programs are conducted privately in-house by these organizations. One exception is professional athletes who also participate in Olympic sports (e.g. basketball, hockey). These athletes are subject to USADA testing in the lead up to the Games. USADA is responsible for the testing program and results management for athletes in Olympic, Paralympic, Pan American, and Parapan American sport. Please see the previous question to understand what constitutes Olympic, Paralympic, Pan American, and Parapan American sport. USADA also conducts testing by contract for sports and/or events that fall outside this group, such as professional boxing, dance, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu


You make some valid points.
Obviously if you have a low testing rate, you may not catch many fish. In addition, the method and timing in which the athletes are chosen is important. ASADA has both targeted and random testing of athletes.

If you look at 2015 figures by WADA based on number of violations per tests carried out, you get a different ranking. Russia for example, is often criticised in the western media but RUSADA carried out over 12,500 tests in 2015. Only China and Germany did similar levels of testing (~13,000 tests). Australia did about 4,600 tests that year. Again these can be misleading. How many tests are of the same athlete in a short period of time? I recall an AFL player saying that ASADA tested him 4 times in one week.
Unless every athlete is tested routinely, we may never know the true extend of doping in Sport. There are of course masking chemical agents that athletes use. And general corruption exists everywhere in the world.

WADA testing 2015.JPG
 

Aeglos

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The list of ADRV is from 2016, with lots of positives in the 2 sports I mentioned in my other post, so that time line ties in with the stats.

What has happened the last year or two? Have they lost their IOC recognition
It's a fairly long story but this comment on reddit pretty much sums up the situation (Wilks being the head of Powerlifting Australia and IPF being the international powerlifting federation)
Wilks kept taking ipf to court, ipf said fu** this guy and voted him and PA out (a year ago), wilks started his own world body (world powerlifting), ipf started a new fed in Australia (apu), drug tested lifting basically was split in Australia between apu and pa for the last year, now a court has ruled that Pa should be reinstated, so a bunch of lifters are left wondering what the fu** is going on
The last I paid attention to what was happening (about a year ago) no powerlifting fed in Australia was getting funding to do their drug testing so, presumably, no one was getting tested as who wants to fork out $800 to pee in a cup?
 

RussellEbertHandball

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You make some valid points.
Obviously if you have a low testing rate, you may not catch many fish. In addition, the method and timing in which the athletes are chosen is important. ASADA has both targeted and random testing of athletes.

If you look at 2015 figures by WADA based on number of violations per tests carried out, you get a different ranking. Russia for example, is often criticised in the western media but RUSADA carried out over 12,500 tests in 2015. Only China and Germany did similar levels of testing (~13,000 tests). Australia did about 4,600 tests that year. Again these can be misleading. How many tests are of the same athlete in a short period of time? I recall an AFL player saying that ASADA tested him 4 times in one week.
Unless every athlete is tested routinely, we may never know the true extend of doping in Sport. There are of course masking chemical agents that athletes use. And general corruption exists everywhere in the world.

View attachment 719395
Thanks for the table. Is 2015 the latest one available?

Russia's 2015 figures you have to be skeptical and cynical about. It was in late 2015 that ex head of RUSADA's anti-doping lab, Grigory Rodchenkov spilt the beans on their cheating and falsifying the tests, as well as destroying samples and in November 2015 WADA closed down the lab he had previously run before detecting to the USA.
 

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deathevocation

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It's a fairly long story but this comment on reddit pretty much sums up the situation (Wilks being the head of Powerlifting Australia and IPF being the international powerlifting federation)


The last I paid attention to what was happening (about a year ago) no powerlifting fed in Australia was getting funding to do their drug testing so, presumably, no one was getting tested as who wants to fork out $800 to pee in a cup?
Remember when Wilks in around 2011 got a very decent CAPO lifter to come over. Said lifter never got tested is the common concensous (despite lifting at competitions which ASADA were at). Said lifter since moved back to CAPO/GPC. Boggles the mind. Guess what the boss wants, the boss gets.
 

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Thanks for the table. Is 2015 the latest one available?

Russia's 2015 figures you have to be skeptical and cynical about. It was in late 2015 that ex head of RUSADA's anti-doping lab, Grigory Rodchenkov spilt the beans on their cheating and falsifying the tests, as well as destroying samples and in November 2015 WADA closed down the lab he had previously run before detecting to the USA.
Not sure. Some WADA stats released to the public seem to be delayed. Maybe due to privacy or legal reasons. Who knows. The most recent WADA ADR Violations and statistics available on their website was published in 2018 but the data relates to 2016.

The Russian situation is an interesting one. There is a lot of propaganda in the western media. The 28 Russian athletes that were banned due to doping violations, had their bans overturned in an appeal at CAS last year. Yet the IOC still banned Russia from competing in the 2018 Winter Olympics. There is a lot of politics being played here and we tend to only hear one side.
WADA also recently retrieved several thousand samples from a Russian Testing Lab that may prove more Russian athletes innocent (and some who were guilty may still be guilty)

 

Aeglos

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Remember when Wilks in around 2011 got a very decent CAPO lifter to come over. Said lifter never got tested is the common concensous (despite lifting at competitions which ASADA were at). Said lifter since moved back to CAPO/GPC. Boggles the mind. Guess what the boss wants, the boss gets.
Pretty sure I know the lifter in question.
I was at their first PA comp (at Hawthorn) and ASADA were there but said lifter had left out the back door of the warm up room after the comp before they got to them.
 

RussellEbertHandball

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Not sure. Some WADA stats released to the public seem to be delayed. Maybe due to privacy or legal reasons. Who knows. The most recent WADA ADR Violations and statistics available on their website was published in 2018 but the data relates to 2016.

The Russian situation is an interesting one. There is a lot of propaganda in the western media. The 28 Russian athletes that were banned due to doping violations, had their bans overturned in an appeal at CAS last year. Yet the IOC still banned Russia from competing in the 2018 Winter Olympics. There is a lot of politics being played here and we tend to only hear one side.
WADA also recently retrieved several thousand samples from a Russian Testing Lab that may prove more Russian athletes innocent (and some who were guilty may still be guilty)

I don't think you can say the 2 part McLaren Report in 2016 is western propaganda. Its the report that was used by the IOC to ban them from 2018 Olympics, and said that over 1,000 Russian athletes benefited from doping, since 2011 as reported in the BBC link you provided, and if you want to further update yourself start at
and continue on to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_Russia

Russia was also banned from 2017 IAAF Athletics World Championships and IAAF have still banned Russia from 2019 Championships in Doha next month. In 2017 19 Russian athletes were allowed to go as individuals under the Authorised Neutral Athletes banner, like in the 2018 Winter Olympics. The same will happen for those athletes cleared for 2019 world champs next month. FINA let Russia compete at their Aquatics world championships in 2017 i Hungary and last moth in South Korea across all disciplines.

Edit; the IAAF only cleared 1 female Russian to compete at 2016 Olympics in Rio. Some other sports banned Russians, most let them participate.

Russian athletes may miss this year's World Championships in Doha after the International Association of Athletics Federations voted to leave its doping suspension in place. The IAAF took the decision at a council meeting in Monaco - the 11th time it has voted to maintain the ban.

Athletes have not been able to compete for Russia since November 2015 after state-sponsored doping was uncovered. The World Championships will take place from 28 September to 6 October.

Under the terms of the IAAF ban, Russian athletes cannot compete under their own flag. However, athletes who have met the IAAF doping review board's drug-testing criteria can compete under a neutral flag.

So far, Russia has endorsed 286 applications for 'neutral athlete' status to date - of which 66 have been granted and 22 rejected by the IAAF. The next vote is likely to be taken at an IAAF Council meeting on 23 September - just five days before the World Championships.
.......

So when world sporting bodies maintain the bans, criticism in the media and by the general public in the west is hardly propaganda.
 
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In the presser she looked about as guilty as a puppy sitting next to pile of poo.
 

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