Sheedy - Have your say!

[The Dutchman!]

I've sure you've all got an opinion one way or another on Sheeds. I for one would be interested to know what supporters of all clubs make of the guy.

For a start its pretty weird having had the same coach since 1981 - Christ I can't remember too much else about 1981.

Personally I think he is a very good coach but not the best of his time (I'd put him third after Blight, Pagan and just B4 Malthouse). Sure he might have won a flag or two more with a little bit of luck but I still think he's around that level - particularly if you remember that short kicking BS we used to do for years... and some of the players he's persisted with over the years...

Anyway, I think hsi main strenght and the reason he has survived 20 years (and hence long enough to have a crack at a 4th day flag) is because he is the best promoter of a footy team and a footy code I have ever seen. He is never out of the news long, is always humourous and controversial and is always positively putting EFC and the Code forward. Can anyone think of anyone in any code who has come even close for a sustained period of time?

The best way to sell this idea I suppose is to point out that Essendon have been a real contender pretty much every other year for the whole 20 years during his reign.

Sure he inherited some great players from Barry Davis in 1981 but prior to that we'd been terrible for over 10 years (not winning a flag since the mid-60's) and worse still had no winning culture. I started going to games at Windy Hill in 75 or 76 and can hardly remember winning a game!!!

I firmly believe Sheedy is in a large way responsible for the fact that most people now take it for granted that Essendon are likely to be there or abouts. I also believe that if he'd gone to Richmond in 81 things might have been very, very, very different at Punt Rd over the past 20 years and thank God that he didn't.

Thoughts?

Dutch

 

[Eagle_Fan]

He keeps Essendon human.

And he's been at Essendon almost my whole life, I can't imagine footy without him.

It's great to see loyalty (from both him, and the board) in a game ruled too often by money. ie Mick Malthouse & Leigh Colbert.

And he's just so funny. I love the fact he can make stuff up like the martians, and get away with it all.

He makes Essendon bareable (and dare I say it almost likable) from a West Coast point of view!

 

[Grendel]

Dutchman, I dont like Sheedy. Is he a good coach? Im not even sure about that. I
have heard that a lot of your match day strategy is now done by Robert Shaw and
Harvey.

Your point about Davis I thought while close was a little out. Some of my friends
swear blind that Billy Stephen was crucified by the committee of the day and would
have been the best coach the dons could have had if they had given him a bit more
time.

Why dont I like him? I think he believes all knowledge of the game begins and ends
at his doorstep. He took a GREAT side to back to back flags then pretty much
stuffed it up. I know that injuries didnt help. But giving away core blokes like
Carey/Hawker//Peter whathisname/(sorry I forget he had short dark hair) and some
others. Bringing in Raines and co. Giving up Merrett was the end of what could have
been a dynasty.

Playing for years the same hacks (Wallis is still there for gods sake)
Considine/Fox/Banfield/Sommerville/that little hairy bloke whose name I forget as
well (Sorry its the Medication

and Flood must have just about made life
membership.

93 many MANY credit to Pagan and the recruiters. So what has he done since?

Essendon have had more injuries that any other club that i can name in the last
twenty years. Why? Surely the coach must have had a look at that? Why haven't
training procedures been changed? It cant be all bad luck for that long.

What has gone wrong since 93? Why the hell did he let Salmon go? Yeah Wellman
and Baranrd are fine footballers but the outstanding ruckman that could maybe have
delivered you a flag is with the Hawks. As soon as Madden went Salmon should
have been first ruck. Simple as that no argument.

Last year playing Baranrd on Whitnall and persisting with it all game. Who takes
responsibility for that little gem? Fatty finn barnard is a tough goer but he is no CHB.

You say how he is always in the papers with quotes and such. I remember him
saying how (when you lost Wanganeen) that you should have been given the first
draft choice as compensation as you had clearly lost the best player. Funny how he
didnt say the same when we lost Ben Allan the year before. Seems to me you picked
up a handy player called Lloyd that year. Maybe you find quotes like that amusing
but it pisses me of no end. He may say he has the games interests at heart but stuff
like that makes me think different.

Okay you wanted to know so there you go. I reckon your a mighty side and should
at the least make the GF, but still think the biggest liability you have is your head
coach. I dont think you need him and that Shaw or harvey could do better jobs if
given the chance.

 

[Shinboners]

Kevin Sheedy. Marshmallows aside, I think history will judge him as one of the game's true greats.

The Dutchman and Grendel have pretty much written most of the things I would've said, but while Grendel made some pertinent points about Sheedy's weaknesses, I tend to agree more with the Dutchman's view of the man.

The man has created two GREAT teams (the mid-80s side, the '93 side), and is on the verge of creating his third. The thing is that sports coaches and managers can usually only create one great team, but when those players get old and move on, the coach cannot create another great side and the team slides. This puts him in the same category as the David Parkin and Allan Jeans of this world. This is why, for the time being, I put Sheedy ahead of Pagan and Malthouse.

People say that with the players he's had, he should've won more premierships. However, injuries get in the way, there are other clubs that are better in a given year, but for the most part, Essendon have been there or thereabouts....at the very least, challenging for a finals spot. It says something that I couldn't imagine Essendon being a cellar dweller any more than I could imagine Richmond being perennial Premiership challengers.

Finally, Sheedy adds colour to the game. His marshmallow comments in '98 gave us North fans one of the best finals ever....hope he appreciated our post-game munchies that we were throwing at him. The jacket waving against West Coast, the martians, his politicking against the Essendon board, the work he put in to have FOUR Danihers in the same side just to create a little bit of history, the fact that he's put players like Long, Hird, Mercuri, Lloyd onto the MCG stage, the fact that he took a quite ordinary player like Paul Barnard and turned him into one of the AFL's most dependable defenders, the final fact that the game would not be anywhere near as colourful without his presence.

Kevin Sheedy is a legend.

 

[Pessimistic]

The most amazing thing is when he suggests something... It happens

Like the goals and boundary line at waverley. You'd think the AFL would consult the tenants of the time, Saints and Hawks about matters waverley. In fact they were largely ignored. But essendon have one bad defeat and sheedy blames waverley and all of a sudden the goal to goal distance is the same as the MCG.

Take that together with the size of the interchange bench (which hasn't really reduced the amount of injuries) and other choice changes It makes you relly wonder.

Perhaps John Elliot should save his money on lawyers and ask (or bribe) shhedy to call for internet money to go to the clubs and it will happen

He comes across as a nice enough fellow on TV but you suspect that he must have been a real political operator to survive so long as a coach at a footy club. Perhaps the labour party should be persuading him to come on board as a future PM

 

[Pessimistic]

PS Paul Barnard showed signs he would be a good player while at Hawthorn. We were sad to lose him but we really needed a ruckman. Perhaps it's Paul's 'looks' that made people think he was a 'hack' player.

PPS If Paul Salmon retires this year, Expect Sheedy to remind everyone that Sean Wellman and Paul Barnard are still playing so it was a good trade after all

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Shinboner - you summed it all up when you said you could not imagine Essendon being a cellar dwellar - ever.

Thats just what the Bombers were in '81 before Sheedy took over. They were not much more than a rabble and were perennial losers. The fact that Sheedy took a side of also rans and turned them into a powerhouse that has been in the finals or at least challenged hard for a finals spot every year since 1981 is a real testiment to the guy.

Also I cannot think of another person in the game that has done more and worked harder to promote the code to a wider audience than Kevin Sheedy has.

And besides - the guy is a laugh-a-minute with his comments on everything from North Melbourne marshmallows to Umpires from Mars its all very entertaining and the game needs guys like Sheedy - by the truckload.

 

[Jaffa]

I like the bloke, he is good for football.

He is certainly a culture changer. I know he has only been at Essendon but you can tell he would be successful wherever he went.

He is a great coach. The only problem that I see is that he might not have won as many flags as he possibly could have. He looks like he loses interest when the team isn't right at the top. Like since 93. Look at the great players that have been there since then and it looks like they have underachieved until now. Especially in 96 through 98. I thought they were very disappoininting in those seasons. Before anyone points out the Preliminary Final loss, they did come from 6th in 96.

All in all though, as he once pointed out recently, in his time as coach, no other coach has one more flags than him. He's up there with the greats.

 

[Dave]

Well, pretty much everything that could be said has been said, though I've a couple of comments to make.

One, to Grendel, he didn't let Salmon go, Fish wanted to leave because Sheed's wouldn't play him in the ruck. Whilst he's been terrific at Hawthorn since moving, almost no-one remembers that the ruck rules were changed prior to the 96 season (remember Justin Madden threatening to sue the league?), which IMO has had a big influence on his success.

The other is that whilst, as he says, no-one has coached more flags than him in his time, and injuries may have cost us a flag or two (though we did pinch '93, no-one expected us to win that one), he's had a bad habit of NOT getting the side fired up in big games. Dad & I sat pretty close to the players race lsst year and I couldn't believe how flat they look running out. Ditto in the '90 GF. It's his JOB as coach to make sure the players are "up" for these sort of games and IMO it's probably his biggest weakness.

Having said that, I'm glad I haven't had to worry about the merry go round, will we wont we sack him that's gone on at other clubs over the years. Stability is a good thing, as long as the bloke can coach!

 

[Grendel]

Dave the point I was trying to make was that if Fish had been allowed to play in the ruck (and dont tell me Sommerville was a ruckman) then you may have won more flags than you have, he has been that good at the hawks its a joke. Madden gave it away when,92? Thats eight years you could have had the best ruck in the competion. You already had a full forward who could kcik a hundred in a guy called Hird, and he could if he was played their. No it was Sheedy that drove him to leave by being to pig headed and knowing where best to play him, also some Essendon fans didnt help by booing him of the ground in that last game he played for you in 95. Salmon wasnt really a forward after he did the knee. The pace wasnt there anymore. Everyone else saw that why didnt Sheedy?

He inherited the 84/85 sides and ruined them and you said it yourself that he may well have pinched 93. No he dont do it for me

 

[Dave]

Grendel,
funny thing about '93. Salmon kicked 65 goals, Hird played half a season thanks to his dodgy hammies (doesn' that sound familiar?) and our next best goal kicker was Boris (50). Had Salmon played ruck, I've no doubt we wouldn't have won the flag, we simpy wouldn't have had the goals. People often forget that Fish did spend quite a bit of time rucking, just not the whole game. Remember too, that Sheedy has ofetn said he didn't want Paul to leave. As for the fans who booed him, that was disgraceful, he was an absolute champ for the club.

As for 84/85, Sheeds did inherit some pretty handy players, but he recruited quite a few of the guys who played in those sides (Duckworth, Baker and Weston to name a few), and moulded a team that hadn't been higher than 5th on the ladder in almost 15 years into an outfit that contested 3 consecutive GF's. The last time we'd done that my old man was still a kid.

 

[jod23]

Sheeds as Eagle__Fan so delicately put it almost makes Essendon bearable. Sheedy and Malthouse i think are the best two coaches in the league and have been for the past decade. I thank Kevin for waving his jacket and making a great rivalry come out of a close game.

2000 the year of the Eagle

 

[Grendel]

Dave the one truly great player Sheedy bought to your club in the back to back sides that has been overlooked was Baker. Second only to Williams that Ive seen as a centre. God that guy was good, wish the Hawks had gotten him and maybe we may have taken 84. Still past history and when he left I dont think that many Dons fans realised just how big a loss he was.

I have no problem with your assesment of Salmons 65 goals in 93 getting you wins on the board, didnt he kick 9 against Jakovich that year? But I still think he has proven that he was better and would have proved to have been if allowed to, as a ruckman. If as you say that you pinched 93 then there is argument that Sheedy on his own merits hasnt really delivered the goods. Or more to the point has under-acheived with that which he has had at his disposal.

I have friends who still hate the fact that Salmon isnt a Bomber and lay the blame at Sheedys feet.

Question for you. If you had KEPT Salmon, used him in the ruck ALL the time since 93 (forget if you would have won flags or not) would you have been a BETTER side?

I reckon that you would have but really want to know from your perspective.

p.s Im not stirring I really am curious and please god , Kick the living bejeezus out of carlton and stick it right up elliot this week.

 

[The Dutchman!]

Grendel

I take on board what you're saying - its all good stuff. Particularly about Baker. Best footballer in an Essendon jumper I've ever seen with the exception of Neale Daniher (sigh).

I would say that the problem with Essendon post Simon Madden was not use of Salmon as a FF/ part time ruck but with the long term perseverance with Somerville who was dreadful instead of trying to retain Barnes in 91. Sure Denham's been great for us but Barnes would have translated to flags.

Frankly, if I had the whole situation over again I'd still swap Salmon for Wellman - who IMHO has been the best backman we've had since Weston and the only true CHB we've had probably in my lifetime and I'm 30. (I just see Barnard as a bonus in that deal)

True it was an absolute disgrace that Salmon was booed by the supporters in his last game. But I think you'd be hard pressed to find a supporter who isn't quietly chuffed that Fish has done so well at Hawthorn.

I agree with Dave, Salmon was needed to score goals in 92-93 - Hird was used all over the ground - mostly to make up for the fact that we didn't (and this is ironic) didn't have a tall CHB.

Perseverence with Sommerville instead of blooding Eastaugh mid last year cost us the flag - certainly cost us that PF. He was diabolical that day... but its not his fault he wasn't culled 8 years earlier....

Very informed and intelligent question though and my answer is only my opinion - I'm sure others differ.

Dutch

 

[Dave]

Grendel,
yeah, how Leon missed the Norm Smith in 84 is beyond me. He kicked the goals that kept us in the game & kicked the ones that really spurred us on in the last quarter. I still get goose bumps watching the blind turn & kick that put us in front!

Post '93 yeah, I'd say we've underachieved, though that's probably due mainly to last years debacle. '94 was a write off, injuries & hangover. '95 we just weren't quite there, and wouldn't have beaten Carlton anyway. '96 hurt, but we did only finsish 6th & were lucky to get a home game against the Eagles. Had we played them in Perth I doubt we'd have been in the prelim (as it was with the injuries we copped in that game we'd have been killed by Nth) . '97 & '98 were pretty much where I expected given the run we had with injuries. Last year we should have won the flag but ****ed up.

Would this have been different if Fish had played in the ruck? Probably. '96 & 99 may well have seen us in the GF. Would we have been a bettter side? Maybe. Better in the ruck no doubt, but without Wellman at CHB our defense would have sucked. I agree with Dutch, I've followed the dons for over 30 years and we've had two CHB's in that time, and Wellman's one of them.

And yes, I hope that we give Carlton a right head kicking. Hope I can get there to see it too (damn its good to be playing again!).

Enjoyed your posts, it's good to talk footy without the abuse these things sink to sometimes )

 

[Pessimistic]

Salmon has been great for us, especially as Jars was always going to leave. I'd hate to think where hawthorn would have been in 96-98 had we not had him.

 

[Grendel]

Agree with you on the Salmon at the Hawks Pess and thats what I dont think many Essendon fans understand.
Simply put 96/97/98 he was OUTSTANDING. With a little luck and if we had been a better side he could have won back to back Brownlows thats how good he was for us. SO imagine what he may have been like in a stronger side. Its a scary thought.
Dave/Dutchman I know that you are both fans of Wellman. I think he is a solid footballer without any great qualitys. Fletcher when left down back seems to always take your oppostions best forward, regardless if its full or CHB. So for arguments ssake lets say that Wellman was never there and Fletcher became (and yeah I know he had injurys) CHB. Okay the defence is weaker but how many fewer times would it have been penetrated becuase you had the dominat ruckman pushing the ball forward who read the play so well that he (for us did I can tell you) dropped back into defence and stopped so many attacks dead anyway that a Wellman would not have been needed? Nor a Barnard for that matter eithier.

Im still arguing the topics post that Sheedy isnt the be all and end all that some think he is. But im enjoying the topic too!

 

[The Dutchman!]

Grendel, Pess, Dave

All solid points well made.

First. let me amend an error I made - Wellman is very good but the best by a country mile (and only other) CHB we're had in my lifetime was of course the great man Neale Daniher (sob) - I assume that's who you're talking about Dave???.

Grendel - I think I indicated earlier that even I don't think Sheeds has been the be all and end all coach - but I think he's still been terrific for the club and the code.

I know how good Salmon has been at Hawthorn and maybe you're right... but I think you really, really underestimate Wellman's impact. Until he arrived our backline had no stability for years and absolutely bleed goals - particularly against North who we matched and bettered in most other places but still ended up beat for years by a kick or two. He, Flether and Hardwick have provided the stability (particularly in the light of serious injuries to Prior and Berbakov and Judas chasing the 30 pieces of silver) that has allowed us to blood and bring on Solomon and Mark Johnson who are both very, very good. Without Wellman I think we're at least a 5 goal worse side - that's at least 3 more kicked against us and at least 2 less kicked from attacks he generates.

May have been just solid at Hawthorn but is now a gun (age 25-6). Frankly how Silvani and McKay got all Oz last year and he didn't is... well... it's got Collo written all over it...

Dutch

PS. I expect Barry Young to murder em this week.

PPS. Is Thommo going to play?

 

[colley31]

Dutch,

Football wouldn't be football without characters like Kevin Sheedy, and he just knows when to say things to stir the pot ie: The Marshmallow War, and he manages to create things that become football icons, like the swinging of the jacket against the Eagles. He has coached some great teams, and the Bombers are always a competitive unit no matter where they are on the ladder, but I just wonder come the time that he retires, whether he will be looked upon as someone who has under-achieved. I know some clubs it takes years to win premierships, but 3 premierships in 20 years, will it be viewed enough given the talent he had ????

 

[The Dutchman!]

Colley31

Most Bomber fans would probably agree with you mate and so do I to a degree.

I think he only really, really underachieved last year in that it was the first season since 93 he had the players without key injuries (Hird, Lucas, Prior & Berbakov were not the basis for the form last year so they don't really count).

If he'd been a tad luckier with the talent in 86, 90, 96 and 99 he might have had one or several more but that's just crying over spilt milk.

End of the day if he wins this year or next year he can tell them all to get stuffed - 4 in 20 is enough cred. If he wins more than one in the next few years where does that leave him in the history books?

Fair comment though until he delivers at least one more.

Dutch

 

[Dan26]

Kevin Sheedy is a great coach, end of story.

I think Pagan is better, but Sheedy has a magnficent record.

* 14 final apperances in 19 completed seasons.

* An Incredible SIX Ansett Cup Premierships

* FIVE "top of the ladder finishings", which is more than any other team in his 19 year caoching carrer. This basically means that Essendon has been the best team 5 times in 19 years under Sheedy. It is also the test as to who is conisistently the best team of the year week in week out.

* THREE Grand Final victories (even though this doesn't always go to the best team.) In Essendon case it DID go to the best team, as they finished top in all three years they won the Grand Final.

* a 64 percent win-loss record as a coach. This is remarkable and puts him up with the greatest coaches of all time. He has acheived this over 20 years now, so there is no reason to suggest why he won't continue to have that sort of percentage, if he coaches for another 10 years.

Sheedy's strength is his ability to develop a team, and have that team eventually build up to a force. Pagan's strength is his game-plan, which relys on playing the percentages, and his magnificent structured disciplined team.

This is NOT Sheedys strength. Sheedy develops players, and he has a "winning" mentality. Sheedy won't accept losing, and he has single handedly changed the culture at Essendon.

DUTCHMAN, I disagree with your comments on Somerville. I didn't think he was a great player, but he had a superb 1995 season (that was his best), and to suggest we should have persisted with Eastaugh, doesn't really make sense. Eastuagh is a battler and always will be. he doesn't kick goals, is clumsy, and is basically a reserves player who occasionally gets a senior berth.

I hope Sheedy stays as coach until he retires. Hopefully the board can see the logic in retaining someone who has a 64 percent strike rate over 20 years. Like I said, there is no reason, why he can't keep up this strike rate.

He's not a perfect coach by any means, and he is a very proud man. I would probably even put Malthouse (as well as the before mentioned Pagan) ahead of him. But he is a great ambassador for the game, and a strong reason, why Essendon is Victorias leading club.

 

[The Dutchman!]

Perservering with Somerville last year cost us big time in the PF. There is no getting away from this - bad kicking is just an excuse - if a 1/2 decent player had been in the ruck to at least try to break even with Allan Carlton would have not even got close.

I agree that Eastaugh appears to be an average player but in my opinion would have been a better option than Sommerville who was frankly diabolical.

It didn't have to be Eastaugh. Another preferrable option would have been using Alessio in the ruck from three qtr way through the season and develop other forward options eg: Jacobs, Milne or Ramanaskus etc - not that we really need them - 6+ players kicked 25+ goals without Hird or Lucas.

Playing one good season in 1995 is 100% irrelevant to the above observation. Particularly as it implies average or poor years with the exception of 1995.

Basically, there was no excuse for perservering with Somerville and I think the match committee realised this and very quickly dispensed with his services.

I take you agree with me on Barnes then?

Dutch

 

[Sprog]

I couldn't imagine us without him and I'd miss him if he went.
Just one thing though. WHY !!!! does he insist on playing Wallis??

 

[Dave]

Dutch,
yeah Neale was who I meant. The guy was sensational (I bloody near wept when he did his knee the first time, cost us a flag) - that game against Carlton at PP when he kicked a couple at the end with a busted hand. I'd agree with you on Somma, he tried hard, but just didn't quite cut it. As for Sheeds Grenedel, I agree he may not be the be all and end all, but he's a damn fine coach, and for one I'm glad we've had him. We've gone from being a rabble of a club to one that's been in the finals nearly every year. I've only got to listen to the Tigers fans at work to realise how lucky we've been, cause we weren't far off ending up like them.

 

[sandie]

Dutchman, I think you are pretty much spot
on. Do uou have an email address