Shocker

[PieNSauce]

"Manufactured outrage" - now thats a little inflamatory?

Just because my opinion isn't the same as the general view on this thread it doesn't mean I can't have my opinion... It's an internet forum! I have as much right as you to post my opinion, not everyone has to agree all of the time.

If you don't agree with my opinion I have no problems with that, but rather than some generalisation thrown at me (which anyone has the intelligence to do), why not actually address one of my points and discuss why I am (apparently) soo off the mark.

No one has a gun to your head and is forcing you to post in this thread.

The fact that is obvious here Smoky is that your opinion is very much in a minority. Sure you're entitled to it but you will find that preaching your outmoded 18th century morals will probably not find you many friends here. I am in my fifties and I find your holier than thou attitude quite alarming. Hell, even my parents who are in their eighties have more enlightened views than yours. I swear when I looked at that photo I didn't even notice the hand signal until some looney on the press chose to make a song and dance about it.

I'm also afraid your suggestion that a child would pay it any attention at all is absolutely ludicrous. Even if they did, it is upon you to explain things to your children in the same way as you might explain santa. If you choose to tell your 3 year old that santa is a myth then that is your perogative but you will probably find there will be a large section of the community that will be outraged by your choice.

Nobody is telling you that you don't have a right to your opinion, but other posters here have as much right to tell you that in their opinion your views are barely out of the cave.

 

[Smoky]

Not really, you've clearly bought into Mitchells hysteria about the whole thing which is exactly what he wanted. He used hyperbole to the extreme to whip up some moral outrage where none existed before. Did you even know what the shocker was before this? Why didn't you register your outrage on the night, right after it occured?

In the grand scheme of things it was entirely innocuous and by saying things like "It was pathetically immature what Blair did" you're dancing to Mitchells tune. Careful you don't get led into the river.

I actually have no idea what Mitchel said. I haven't heard the show, read the transcript or read any articles about what he said. If anything I have said is similar to his opinion it is purely coincidental.

Have you ever seen something, been embarrassed by something that they did and not said anything... then when it is brought up in conversation by others voiced your opinion on it? I think most of us do that to varying degress every day of our lives... some people call it the "filter". I didn't feel drawing attention to something that could be looked negatively on from our club was something I wanted to draw attention to... then once it was brought up in conversation and so many people started treating it like a joke (like Blair did to the photo) that I would give my opinion. Everyone else did - just because my opinion is different does not mean I'm wrong - just means I am looking at the occurance from a different perspective.

So I've covered everything in your post (something you are doing very well in avoiding from mine ) No I didn't know what the Shocker was before he did it, and as I have discussed earlier I think an explanation would not have gone astray... as some people claimed it was paying homage to a band, a university in Arizona or of course sticking a finger up a girls bum. So did the band invest personal interest including memberships that helped them get to the NAB cup flag? No, so why pay homage to them... if it's the bum one, well, it seems to only be some young immature males who think it was great!

 

[Smoky]

The fact that is obvious here Smoky is that your opinion is very much in a minority. Sure you're entitled to it but you will find that preaching your outmoded 18th century morals will probably not find you many friends here. I am in my fifties and I find your holier than thou attitude quite alarming. Hell, even my parents who are in their eighties have more enlightened views than yours. I swear when I looked at that photo I didn't even notice the hand signal until some looney on the press chose to make a song and dance about it.

I'm also afraid your suggestion that a child would pay it any attention at all is absolutely ludicrous. Even if they did, it is upon you to explain things to your children in the same way as you might explain santa. If you choose to tell your 3 year old that santa is a myth then that is your perogative but you will probably find there will be a large section of the community that will be outraged by your choice.

Nobody is telling you that you don't have a right to your opinion, but other posters here have as much right to tell you that in their opinion your views are barely out of the cave.

Yeah - great post and well said

I think it might be time to explain why I have my opinion (something I think you'll realise why I didn't feel was neccessary for obvious reasons) - but as it seems that my opinion and it's out-datedness and prudeness is the only thing being debated on the thread, it's become relevant to the conversation.

In June last year I was rang by my 7 year old sons, mum's, brother to inform me that they were performing an intervention on her, for an alcohol abuse problem that I had no idea about. She had been rushed to emergency 9 times with alcohol induced comas whilst my son was in her care. I took immediate full custody.

Now I have only a few stories from her family of what things my son was actually going through at home. As my son is Autistic, he did not communicate that anything was wrong and in fact just did not know that this was not normal. His developement academically and emotionally was alarmingly behind... which I assumed was something purely based on him being on the Autism Spectrum, I was wrong.

There are things that I read in the subpeonered evidence from her doctors and hospitals that made me realise that if the intervention had not occured that my son may no longer be with us. We are both extremelly lucky that he has a new lease on life and was rescued in time.

Now - my point... my reason why I think the hand gesture was disrespectful.

My mission over the past 10 months has been solely focased around my sons acedemic and emotional developement. With what he has seen and been through, he deserves the opportunity like most other people had, to be a kid.

When I was a kid, I was obcessed with my heroes... and still to this day am obcessed by the black and white. I don't think there's many on this thread that will disagree that Collingwood is not just a football team - It's a way of life. And in my eyes the contempt that was shown in that photo was something a football team would do - not part of our way of life, not something you'd do in my family at the Xmas lunch photo!

Maybe I'm wrong to encourage my son to watch his heroes every week kick goals and win games, proudly wear Alan Didak's number on his back, wear his Collingwood badges, scalf and beenie, be a junior member, watch the interviews on Sports tonight and the Fox Sports news... look them up in the papers and on the internet cut them out or print them and along with his Collingwood posters stick them up all over his room. It was what I did when I was around his age and contrary to popular belief on this thread, I reckon I turned out alright!

When I was 4, we won a pre season flag (I was too young to remember)...

When I was 15 we won the ultimate...

When I was 35 we won it again.

Now he has been living with me for 10 months... and won 2 Flags! I have explained to him how important and rare Premierships are and that they should be savoured, because from personal experience, I know - they don't come along every day.

His Collingwood 2010 Premiers poster is the one in his room he is most proud of... A 2011 Nab Cup Premiers poster would look great on his wall... his personal honour board to his heroes... and sexual deviate???

Now people may say... what kid is going to look at every part of the photo and ask questions, what kid would even notice? Well he would.

A Nab cup flag photo doesn't mean a hell of alot to me... but it means the world to him - and good on him - our little black and white brother.

I did not bring this all up for sympathy or praise and I did not bring this all up to be a thread stopper... just simply put, people seem to be throwing away the actual point that some kids or some elders (not all of them) don't need to see that "unexplained" gesture that obviously has nothing to do with the "Black and White" army - he's a member of it too.

People claiming they are going to send emails to the club complaining about an apology - please???

So instead of the sarcastic Jpeg being posted... really, Think of the children!

Anyone who has an opinion on this I encourage your input

 

[Old Spice]

Smokey's entitled to his view, as others are. If posts go down the personal attack route, I'll be locking this mofo.

 

[PieNSauce]

Smoky,
Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion but I think you have really got to have a bit of perspective. The fact is that practically nobody would have noticed the gesture had it not been brought up by some wowser in the press. Even had anybody noticed it, most probably wouldn't know what it means. By Blair apologising for it he is giving credence to the ridiculous wowserism of the media for something that in effect the media created. Can you not see how utterly ridiculous that is? I am personally quite annoyed and affronted that the club and Blair chose to apologise for that very reason. Be honest, if your child asks you a question have you not had cause in the past to tell a "white lie"? I know I have with my children many times and you'd be surprised how much similarity there is between my childrens' circumstances and yours.

 

[Smoky]

Smoky,
Like I said, you're entitled to your opinion but I think you have really got to have a bit of perspective. The fact is that practically nobody would have noticed the gesture had it not been brought up by some wowser in the press. Even had anybody noticed it, most probably wouldn't know what it means. By Blair apologising for it he is giving credence to the ridiculous wowserism of the media for something that in effect the media created. Can you not see how utterly ridiculous that is? I am personally quite annoyed and affronted that the club and Blair chose to apologise for that very reason. Be honest, if your child asks you a question have you not had cause in the past to tell a "white lie"? I know I have with my children many times and you'd be surprised how much similarity there is between my childrens' circumstances and yours.

Yeah fair enough... but the fact Blair has done it in a club photo means that predicament arrives. If he had not done it, there would be nothing in the media about it. It's not the medias fault they reported it... It's Blairs fault, and an apology to those (minority) is appropriate. Those (minority) are still part of the Black and White family.

Do you think the Club will put that photo on their wall? Or say next to the cup? You think they have the right to decide what they want to put up... Not Blair - and I'd say they won't now, even if the had wanted to.

 

[PieNSauce]

Yeah fair enough... but the fact Blair has done it in a club photo means that predicament arrives. If he had not done it, there would be nothing in the media about it. It's not the medias fault they reported it... It's Blairs fault, and an apology to those (minority) is appropriate. Those (minority) are still part of the Black and White family.

Do you think the Club will put that photo on their wall? Or say next to the cup? You think they have the right to decide what they want to put up... Not Blair - and I'd say they won't now, even if the had wanted to.

Frankly I agree that it would be better if Blair had not done it but I do indeed blame the media for reporting such a nonsense, non-news story and I'd also be extremely surprised if Collingwood don't put the picture up. It won't be the first, nor the last time that somebody does something a bit silly in a photograph and I expect they are above worrying about such an insignificant matter. I'm sorry if you are offended but I think the club would take the pragmatic approach in determining that those who are offended are in an absolute minority.

 

[Zahki]

Do you think the Club will put that photo on their wall? Or say next to the cup?

Why not? As has been said before the entire issue has been blown up by the media looking to manufacture it's next big scandal. Unfortunately it's a non-issue and 99% of people would see it as harmless joking around in a meaningless competition. I think the disconnect here is you think that it's a dirty gesture known to a lot of people that you weren't keyed in on, it's not. It's not like the bird where it's a universal 'up yours', go around town and throw up the shocker and no-one will care. If you're not part of the community that knew what the meaning is then there is no reason for you to be offended.

If you can be so offended after reading a meaning for a hand gesture you had no idea about a few days beforehand, then man have I got news for you about anyone who's been showing you their palm

 

[Smoky]

Frankly I agree that it would be better if Blair had not done it but I do indeed blame the media for reporting such a nonsense, non-news story and I'd also be extremely surprised if Collingwood don't put the picture up. It won't be the first, nor the last time that somebody does something a bit silly in a photograph and I expect they are above worrying about such an insignificant matter. I'm sorry if you are offended but I think the club would take the pragmatic approach in determining that those who are offended are in an absolute minority.

So the club or Blair shouldn't worry about offending someone in a minority? And if they do apologise to someone who they may have offended in a minority then everyone should be up in arms complaing and sending the club emails disgusted that they apologised???

I'm not saying you said this, but those who did, really should have a look at this "over reaction" call that they seem to be throwing around

Why not? As has been said before the entire issue has been blown up by the media looking to manufacture it's next big scandal. Unfortunately it's a non-issue and 99% of people would see it as harmless joking around in a meaningless competition. I think the disconnect here is you think that it's a dirty gesture known to a lot of people that you weren't keyed in on, it's not. It's not like the bird where it's a universal 'up yours', go around town and throw up the shocker and no-one will care. If you're not part of the community that knew what the meaning is then there is no reason for you to be offended.

If you can be so offended after reading a meaning for a hand gesture you had no idea about a few days beforehand, then man have I got news for you about anyone who's been showing you their palm

So... this entire thread has been talking about the "Shocker" and NOW you say it's not what the hand gesture meant!

No reason for me (anyone?) to be offended... yet you can't tell anyone exactly what Blair meant? Talk about being in the imaginary inner sanctum!

 

[Zahki]

So the club or Blair shouldn't worry about offending someone in a minority?

No, he shouldn't, at least not in this case. If the 'minority' was something like 40/60 then sure. In this case it's something like 2/98, an absolutely insignificant minority that the club should not be attempting to placate, it makes them look gutless and weak, especially because all of it came about because of a powertripping radio host who wanted to stir up some trouble. Treat the issue with the contempt it deserves.

So... this entire thread has been talking about the "Shocker" and NOW you say it's not what the hand gesture meant!

No reason for me (anyone?) to be offended... yet you can't tell anyone exactly what Blair meant? Talk about being in the imaginary inner sanctum!

No, that is what it meant, the thing is that it was basically an 'in joke', something that he and his mates could chuckle about while people like your good self would keep on carrying on without a care in the world not giving it a second thought. Unfortunately in a sliding doors moment this thread was created, you read up on it and now a gesture that you couldn't care less about 3 days ago has now become so vile in your mind that you label anyone using it as a 'sexual deviant'.

It was an in-joke that went wrong when the 'in' got out. Congratulations you are now on the 'in', laugh and move on, don't take it as a reason to go on a moral crusade.

 

[PieNSauce]

So the club or Blair shouldn't worry about offending someone in a minority? And if they do apologise to someone who they may have offended in a minority then everyone should be up in arms complaing and sending the club emails disgusted that they apologised???

I'm not saying you said this, but those who did, really should have a look at this "over reaction" call that they seem to be throwing around !

I'm certainly not saying that they shouldn't worry about offending anyone but I am saying that in this instance they should not have apologised. To me that action simply gave the story some legs when saying nothing probably would have been better. Let's be honest, these days there's practically nothing you can do without offending some minority group. Does that mean you should need to apologise every five minutes? I would have preferred if they gave it the respect it deserved and refused to be drawn in. To me what they did just encourages the tabloid media to beat up every little issue and make them into major issues when they clearly aren't.

 

[Smoky]

No, he shouldn't, at least not in this case. If the 'minority' was something like 40/60 then sure. In this case it's something like 2/98, an absolutely insignificant minority that the club should not be attempting to placate, it makes them look gutless and weak, especially because all of it came about because of a powertripping radio host who wanted to stir up some trouble. Treat the issue with the contempt it deserves.

Thats ridiculous. So Harry Obrien is the only Brazilian Footballer in the League (to my knowledge)... now that would mean he is what less than 0.2% of the entire league... does that mean that if the AFL send a confidencial email to all the players in the league they can make an offensive comment about his heratige that will only offend him... and not worry about it!

The word minority means that... Minority - that doesn't mean that you don't worry about someone in a minority... well because, no one else cares! Thats a very outdated way of thinking IMO.

No, that is what it meant, the thing is that it was basically an 'in joke', something that he and his mates could chuckle about while people like your good self would keep on carrying on without a care in the world not giving it a second thought. Unfortunately in a sliding doors moment this thread was created, you read up on it and now a gesture that you couldn't care less about 3 days ago has now become so vile in your mind that you label anyone using it as a 'sexual deviant'.

It was an in-joke that went wrong when the 'in' got out. Congratulations you are now on the 'in', laugh and move on, don't take it as a reason to go on a moral crusade.

Just because I disagree with you and I don't think everyone should be up in arms and "disgusted" with the club because Blair apologised for something he did that may have offended a "minority"... I'm going to send the club an email etc has all come from those claiming they aren't offended... The majority! Who's on the moral crusade? I'd say them, not me.

 

[Smoky]

I'm certainly not saying that they shouldn't worry about offending anyone but I am saying that in this instance they should not have apologised. To me that action simply gave the story some legs when saying nothing probably would have been better. Let's be honest, these days there's practically nothing you can do without offending some minority group. Does that mean you should need to apologise every five minutes? I would have preferred if they gave it the respect it deserved and refused to be drawn in. To me what they did just encourages the tabloid media to beat up every little issue and make them into major issues when they clearly aren't.

Don't you think if the club didn't apologise and the media kept hounding the issue that the story would have grown legs...

No comments would have just resulted in the media hunting for more... The apology didn't give the story legs IMO... It shut it down.

 

[Old Spice]

Don't you think if the club didn't apologise and the media kept hounding the issue that the story would have grown legs...

No comments would have just resulted in the media hunting for more... The apology didn't give the story legs IMO... It shut it down.

Agree with that. The clubs moved on, I think we should too. I doubt Blair is pacey up and down in a room somewhere fulminating. Let it go.

 

[Smoky]

Agree with that. The clubs moved on, I think we should too. I doubt Blair is pacey up and down in a room somewhere fulminating. Let it go.

I don't actually think this is an arguement... it's a Collingwood related discussion IMO... and this is an Internet forum for Collingwood dicussion whether that be positive or negative.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Smoky, your insightful post on the page previous is a stirring reminder as to the larger story behind the smaller sentences discussed here on Bigfooty. I can sympathise with the issue you're raising, but I can't totally agree that it deserves the airplay it's been getting.

Jarryd is probably still too young to fully appreciate the rarified air in which he's walking. It seems to be a common thread for the 18-22yos in clubs who have spent a few years in the system, busting their guts to do the right thing and for the whole being very disciplined and then - when the pressure is relieved and some fun can be had - goes a little too far in letting some steam off. The same gesture would be inappropriate in a wedding photo, family photo, etc. but it doesn't stop it from happening.

With perspective, what should have happened was that he was told by a few senior club people that he should tone it down a bit and be aware of how to not go too far in the public eye. The fact that someone gets outraged about it is just too bad, imo. It wasn't meant with malice. It was just dumb. Rap on knuckles, end of lesson.

I find it hard to justify what he did - because it was a non-thinking "bit of fun" - but I don't want to hang him for it.

FWIW I think the Club did the right thing with a very brief apology and nothing more - it didn't deserve anything more. The very fact that an apology was sought is just silly, though.

 

[PieNSauce]

Don't you think if the club didn't apologise and the media kept hounding the issue that the story would have grown legs...

No comments would have just resulted in the media hunting for more... The apology didn't give the story legs IMO... It shut it down.

Perhaps making no comment is not quite the right way but I certainly believe the club should have made it clear that they thought it was a media beat up even if they did acknowledge that a small minority might be offended. I just happen to hate that idiotic journos seem to be able to turn every little non-issue into some major circus when it's so unnecessary. I'm fairly sure Blair would have been admonished had anyone noticed the gesture and as far as I'm concerned that probably would have been more than adequate.

 

[Smoky]

Smoky, your insightful post on the page previous is a stirring reminder as to the larger story behind the smaller sentences discussed here on Bigfooty. I can sympathise with the issue you're raising, but I can't totally agree that it deserves the airplay it's been getting.

Jarryd is probably still too young to fully appreciate the rarified air in which he's walking. It seems to be a common thread for the 18-22yos in clubs who have spent a few years in the system, busting their guts to do the right thing and for the whole being very disciplined and then - when the pressure is relieved and some fun can be had - goes a little too far in letting some steam off. The same gesture would be inappropriate in a wedding photo, family photo, etc. but it doesn't stop it from happening.

With perspective, what should have happened was that he was told by a few senior club people that he should tone it down a bit and be aware of how to not go too far in the public eye. The fact that someone gets outraged about it is just too bad, imo. It wasn't meant with malice. It was just dumb. Rap on knuckles, end of lesson.

I find it hard to justify what he did - because it was a non-thinking "bit of fun" - but I don't want to hang him for it.

FWIW I think the Club did the right thing with a very brief apology and nothing more - it didn't deserve anything more. The very fact that an apology was sought is just silly, though.

I didn't claim it deserved the air time it got. I can say... in fact, I agree with your post...

You said "The very fact that an apology was sought is just silly, though." Do you think its a little silly that people would be up in arms that the apology was made?

People claiming they are disgusted!

 

[Smoky]

Perhaps making no comment is not quite the right way but I certainly believe the club should have made it clear that they thought it was a media beat up even if they did acknowledge that a small minority might be offended. I just happen to hate that idiotic journos seem to be able to turn every little non-issue into some major circus when it's so unnecessary. I'm fairly sure Blair would have been admonished had anyone noticed the gesture and as far as I'm concerned that probably would have been more than adequate.

Agreed... but I really wouldn't say the journos turned this into a "major circus"

 

[PieNSauce]

Agreed... but I really wouldn't say the journos turned this into a "major circus"

In context, the fact that it got any air-time at all is a major circus in view of the importance of the issue IMO.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

You said "The very fact that an apology was sought is just silly, though." Do you think its a little silly that people would be up in arms that the apology was made?

People claiming they are disguste

Yeah, I do think that reaction is a bit strange, although it's probably more of an equal and opposite reaction to those who were passionately outraged in the first place.

I think anyone with a modicum of common sense can be content to concede a cm here or there to save a kilometre, if you know what I'm saying

 

[jonbe54]

Smoke mate it was stupid and innapropriate. As for peeps being disgusted - many peeps are disgusted by the same things that others rate. If the minorities had their way the world would be in chaos - for example - how high do you reckon the rape and molestation rates would skyrocket if prostitution was aggressively reduced? Yet the moralising morons who are constantly calling for it would be the first to scream blue murder if their little darlings were r*ped or molested. As for the press running with such a molehill what can I say? We have one of the worst so-called free press on the planet.

 

[Suspense]

Just because my opinion isn't the same as the general view on this thread it doesn't mean I can't have my opinion... It's an internet forum! I have as much right as you to post my opinion, not everyone has to agree all of the time.

If you don't agree with my opinion I have no problems with that, but rather than some generalisation thrown at me (which anyone has the intelligence to do)

it's a bit rich to to take umbrage at people expressing an opinion of you as being a moral crusader, prudish or whatever when you've expressed an opinion labelling Blair an "idiot" and people who find blair's use of the shocker funny/amusing as "immature".

Judge not, lest ye not be judged.

 

[mdc]

Don't you think if the club didn't apologise and the media kept hounding the issue that the story would have grown legs...

No comments would have just resulted in the media hunting for more... The apology didn't give the story legs IMO... It shut it down.

It may have shut it down in this particular instance (although not really, given The Age ran the story + apology as front page news the next day), but next time Mitchell & co. are scraping the bottom of the barrel, they'll scrape a little more enthusiastically knowing that clubs won't just dismiss their rubbish.

Fwiw Smoky, I wish you all the best in your journey with your son. It really sounds like he's had far too much misfortune in his life for one so young. But if you're hellbent on being honest with him - having said you'd have to explain the gesture - couldn't you explain to him that football players aren't heroes, they're human beings? And as human beings they make mistakes like the rest of us. Instead of being uncomfortable about Blair's gesture, couldn't you use it as a way of teaching your son how not to behave in certain situations, if you indeed don't think it's appropriate.

Given the history of our players and the profile of our club, you'll need to do this sooner or later anyway. Wouldn't it be better to start with an innocuous hand gesture than a joyride with a murderer or a drink-driving escapade?

 

[Old Spice]

Smoke mate it was stupid and innapropriate. As for peeps being disgusted - many peeps are disgusted by the same things that others rate. If the minorities had their way the world would be in chaos - for example - how high do you reckon the rape and molestation rates would skyrocket if prostitution was aggressively reduced? Yet the moralising morons who are constantly calling for it would be the first to scream blue murder if their little darlings were r*ped or molested. As for the press running with such a molehill what can I say? We have one of the worst so-called free press on the planet.

Everyone is in a minority at some time: in front of the tele, at work, in support for a football team. There's no such people as 'the majority' who all get t-shirts when they join and agree on everything at secret meetings.

I don't mind if particular views or tastes aren't popular, as long as they don't damage other people. Think about channel two. The VFL is not a popular thing to watch on tv, nor is the opera, but I'm glad that people who like those type of things get to see them.