Shocker

[Smoky]

it's a bit rich to to take umbrage at people expressing an opinion of you as being a moral crusader, prudish or whatever when you've expressed an opinion labelling Blair an "idiot" and people who find blair's use of the shocker as "immature".

Judge not, lest ye not be judged.

I labelled Blair an idiot because he did it...

So I calling everyone celebrating the "Shocker" as immature? Huh? I've responded to posts and quoted what I was talking in reference to... could you do the same? The "immature" line you used makes no sence it's context is untraceable.

 

[mdc]

Everyone is in a minority at some time: in front of the tele, at work, in support for a football team. There's no such people as 'the majority' who all get t-shirts when they join and agree on everything at secret meetings.

Nice work throwing them off the scent, Spiceball.

 

[Smoky]

It may have shut it down in this particular instance (although not really, given The Age ran the story + apology as front page news the next day), but next time Mitchell & co. are scraping the bottom of the barrel, they'll scrape a little more enthusiastically knowing that clubs won't just dismiss their rubbish.

Fwiw Smoky, I wish you all the best in your journey with your son. It really sounds like he's had far too much misfortune in his life for one so young. But if you're hellbent on being honest with him - having said you'd have to explain the gesture - couldn't you explain to him that football players aren't heroes, they're human beings? And as human beings they make mistakes like the rest of us. Instead of being uncomfortable about Blair's gesture, couldn't you use it as a way of teaching your son how not to behave in certain situations, if you indeed don't think it's appropriate.

Given the history of our players and the profile of our club, you'll need to do this sooner or later anyway. Wouldn't it be better to start with an innocuous hand gesture than a joyride with a murderer or a drink-driving escapade?

Thanks. I understand your very logical explanation process... but a bit too early in his developement to be explaining that sort of stuff. For now, I'm just happy with him looking up to his heroes and getting involved in something that is outside of his own little world.

P.S... as for the joyride etc, I think he understands better than most that people are not the same when they get on the turps!

 

[Suspense]

I labelled Blair an idiot because he did it...

yes you've expressed an opinion about an individual in relation to their actions, just like those who post the somebodythinkofthechildren.jpeg in relation to your posts are doing.

So I calling everyone celebrating the "Shocker" as immature? Huh? I've responded to posts and quoted what I was talking in reference to... could you do the same? The "immature" line you used makes no sence it's context is untraceable.

if it's the bum one, well, it seems to only be some young immature males who think it was great!

 

[Smoky]

Smoke mate it was stupid and innapropriate. As for peeps being disgusted - many peeps are disgusted by the same things that others rate. If the minorities had their way the world would be in chaos - for example - how high do you reckon the rape and molestation rates would skyrocket if prostitution was aggressively reduced? Yet the moralising morons who are constantly calling for it would be the first to scream blue murder if their little darlings were r*ped or molested. As for the press running with such a molehill what can I say? We have one of the worst so-called free press on the planet.

I reckon you could class people like Einstein and Mozart as minorities...

The world would be a very beige place without them!

 

[PieNSauce]

Yeah, I do think that reaction is a bit strange, although it's probably more of an equal and opposite reaction to those who were passionately outraged in the first place.

I think anyone with a modicum of common sense can be content to concede a cm here or there to save a kilometre, if you know what I'm saying

Pretty valid response. I think you'll find that anybody with that same modicum of common sense would have seen the tongue firmly pressed into the cheek with that post about being outraged over the apology. That said, it was as valid as someone being outraged about an immature footballer doing something fairly innoculous if a little immature. Shock, horror, wouldn't have seen that coming!

 

[Smoky]

yes you've expressed an opinion about an individual in relation to their actions, just like those who post the somebodythinkofthechildren.jpeg in relation to your posts are doing.



if it's the bum one, well, it seems to only be some young immature males who think it was great!

I did actually bring that up in the discussion??? Not as a throw away joke line... asked for clarification (respectfully) of what those people actually did think was so funny about it... without responce.

If you have an issue with something I said, please quote it... so we can keep it relevant. These generalisations of what you thought I said and he said etc just derail topics with garbage and shut threads down.

 

[muzzy2]

Hey Smoke,

I understand and sympathise with you. I have a 13 Y.O daughter who attends a special school.

@All Try having to explain to her what this has been all about.

I knew what it meant, but, if the media hadn't run with the story then she would never have even noticed it, like most.

This is where our media has a lot to answer for. They don't just report the news, they actually get to decide WHAT is news. They spout that everyone has the right to know. I say that people have a right sometimes, to not know.

Apart from filling a radio call board, and selling some papers, what possible good has come out of this story. Blair won't do it again... What a wonderful price to pay for what the club and families have had to go through. Thanks Media, you have our best interests at heart.


Smoke, can I recommend you ask one of our fantastic IT savvy forum members to digitally alter a copy of the premiership poster and just remove Blairs hand from the photo, then get it printed at Hardly Normal or K mart etc, and you should be all good for your son.

We can't change what happened, but we can adapt and move on, and I think that would be best for everyone.


Everyone is entilted to their opinions and often, like you have advised here, people aren't aware of the issues behind said opinions. It is a timely reminder to all to be thoughtful in your responses as you don't often know who you are talking to.

Cheers Guys, and most importantly, Go the Pies!!!

 

[Suspense]

I did actually bring that up in the discussion???

is this a question?

you labelled those posting the somebodythinkofthechildren.jpeg as "immature and ignorant" right here.

As for the "think about the children" Simpons jpeg that has been posted multiple times... you really are showing your age and in my opinion immaturity and ignorance, and obviously explaining to you why paying homage to a sexual act in a photo that children who are growing in love with "OUR" Club (yes our's, not Blairs, not your's) is disrespectful to the them is obviously beyond you.

If you have an issue with something I said, please quote it... so we can keep it relevant. These generalisations of what you thought I said and he said etc just derail topics with garbage and shut threads down.

my point was quite clear. you take umbrage at people labelling you based on what you call "generalisations", but have no qualms about doing it yourself in relation to those posters who have no problem with what blair did as well as blair himself. if you judge others, you can't expect others not to judge you.

i cited the post where you labelled those who found it funny as immature:

if it's the bum one, well, it seems to only be some young immature males who think it was great!

 

[Smoky]

Hey Smoke,

I understand and sympathise with you. I have a 13 Y.O daughter who attends a special school.

@All Try having to explain to her what this has been all about.

I knew what it meant, but, if the media hadn't run with the story then she would never have even noticed it, like most.

This is where our media has a lot to answer for. They don't just report the news, they actually get to decide WHAT is news. They spout that everyone has the right to know. I say that people have a right sometimes, to not know.

Apart from filling a radio call board, and selling some papers, what possible good has come out of this story. Blair won't do it again... What a wonderful price to pay for what the club and families have had to go through. Thanks Media, you have our best interests at heart.


Smoke, can I recommend you ask one of our fantastic IT savvy forum members to digitally alter a copy of the premiership poster and just remove Blairs hand from the photo, then get it printed at Hardly Normal or K mart etc, and you should be all good for your son.

We can't change what happened, but we can adapt and move on, and I think that would be best for everyone.


Everyone is entilted to their opinions and often, like you have advised here, people aren't aware of the issues behind said opinions. It is a timely reminder to all to be thoughtful in your responses as you don't often know who you are talking to.

Cheers Guys, and most importantly, Go the Pies!!!

Thanks... and extremelly well said in bold!

Top stuff

 

[Old Spice]

Nice work throwing them off the scent, Spiceball.

They really bit down hard on that one. Thought the riff okay.

 

[Smoky]

Originally Posted by smoky
As for the "think about the children" Simpons jpeg that has been posted multiple times... you really are showing your age and in my opinion immaturity and ignorance, and obviously explaining to you why paying homage to a sexual act in a photo that children who are growing in love with "OUR" Club (yes our's, not Blairs, not your's) is disrespectful to the them is obviously beyond you.

And the bolded part is the explanation of why I claimed it as immature and ignorant...

It was not a generalisation - I stated specifics which no one seems to have refuted? Including yourself.

 

[jonbe54]

I reckon you could class people like Einstein and Mozart as minorities...

The world would be a very beige place without them!

Hold on a minute Smoky - and the same goes for Spicey

You both highlighted my minorities comment and took the tack that I was deriding minorities. I think you both missed the point I was trying to make

To reiterate I said

If the minorities had their way the world would be in chaos

The red highlight is the most important part of the sentence and the part I believe you both missed.

By "Having their way" I mean forcing their minority opinion down the throat of the majority.

Again I don't mean changing opinions with relative and rational argument I mean forcing their opinions through regardless of merit or discussion.

There is room for us all so long as we respect the views and beliefs of others without taking exception to others or attempting to impose our beliefs and imperatives on others.

 

[Suspense]

Originally Posted by smoky
As for the "think about the children" Simpons jpeg that has been posted multiple times... you really are showing your age and in my opinion immaturity and ignorance, and obviously explaining to you why paying homage to a sexual act in a photo that children who are growing in love with "OUR" Club (yes our's, not Blairs, not your's) is disrespectful to the them is obviously beyond you.

And the bolded part is the explanation of why I claimed it as immature and ignorant...

It was not a generalisation - I stated specifics which no one seems to have refuted? Including yourself.

*le sigh*

my point was not to question the validity of your opinions or how accurate your comments about other posters may or may not be. obviously you are going to think your labels/judgements about blair and other posters are entirely accurate and completely justified and those who you feel are inaccurately labelling/judging you are just passing comment based on hasty generalisations.

my point was simply, if you judge others, you can't expect others not to judge you.

It was not a generalisation - I stated specifics which no one seems to have refuted? Including yourself.

why would i indulge in something as pointless as refuting an opinion?

 

[Old Spice]

Hold on a minute Smoky - and the same goes for Spicey

You both highlighted my minorities comment and took the tack that I was deriding minorities. I think you both missed the point I was trying to make

To reiterate I said

If the minorities had their way the world would be in chaos

The red highlight is the most important part of the sentence and the part I believe you both missed.

By "Having their way" I mean forcing their minority opinion down the throat of the majority.

Again I don't mean changing opinions with relative and rational argument I mean forcing their opinions through regardless of merit or discussion.

There is room for us all so long as we respect the views and beliefs of others without taking exception to others or attempting to impose our beliefs and imperatives on others.

Can you list for me the 'majority opinion' on all issues and who's in the team, just for future reference. People like to talk about vocal minorities, again, as though it's some fixed team, but the biggest windbag minorities I've heard in the last little while has been from One Nation crazies, who pretend to represent mainstream opinion, but got no more than 15% of the vote at their zenith. They are non-reflexive blow-hards whose whinging shits me to tears.

People have different opinions, and they pursue them. The club in my view adopted a sensible position of saying, sorry if we offended, and then moved on.

 

[jonbe54]

Spicy minority to me means just that minority on any given subject or in any given situation you're totally right about it not being a fixed team but in my opinion there is a common thread through all the vocal aggressive minorities and that is that they believe they have the right to force their views through regardless. As for one Nation they are an extreme case of red necked deep south American attitudes transmuted to Australia IMHO.

Total agreement on club's attitude - it was a thoughtless, immature act without apparent malice or specific target. The club acknowledged that offense might have been taken and apologized for their players actions and left it at that.

 

[Old Spice]

Spicy minority to me means just that minority on any given subject or in any given situation you're totally right about it not being a fixed team but in my opinion there is a common thread through all the vocal aggressive minorities and that is that they believe they have the right to force their views through regardless. As for one Nation they are an extreme case of red necked deep south American attitudes transmuted to Australia IMHO.

Total agreement on club's attitude, it was a thoughtless, immature act without apparent malice or specific target. The club acknowledged that offense might have been taken and apologized for their players actions and left it at that.

The majority have pretty aggressive views too, Catholic Church went okay there for a while. Should have shut that crackpot Copernicus up with a good crucifix up the clacker.

At the end of the day the issue here is about a naughty school boy sign that was dispatched with. I don't think the club needed to dig their heels in over some strange and nebulous revenge fantasy about free speech. They handled it sweetly.

 

[Reykjavik]

I think this is one we are all just going to have to agree to disagree on as a Collingwood community.

Personally I wasn't unduly concerned. I also admit however that I am not the only person on the planet and that people who have different opinions to me are not wierd or wrong, they just think differently about things. In other words - my own personal reaction is not determinitive of whether something was good or bad - its just my own reaction, but others are just as valid.

In this circumstance, although I wasnt offended, I can acknowledge that it would be possible for some to be offended, and their reaction was just as valid and supportable as mine.

Given that, I think the approach the club has taken is right - acknowledge that offense could be caused and have the player apologise for it, and move on.

The things I take away from this whole saga are

1) We are a magnet for an unscrupulous media wanting to make stories. Always have been I know, but as premiers it is going to be worse. We all have to just get used to it.

2) Underlying the passion on the thread is that we all love our club - and that passion is part of why it matters to people. Lets all acknowledge that passion and revel in it as something we all share.

3) On an internet forum we get used to comment without context - so it was great to see Smokey give some background. This should act as a reminder that maybe thinking "what is the experience behind that poster's opinion?" rather than "what a $%^&^" may be a really useful way of approaching things when someone voices a contrary opinion.

On that also, Smoky, I hope your son does grow up enjoying the exploits of our Black and White players, and to also see they are human beings not infallable heroes. You're the real hero here, and I hope he gets to see that some day. Good luck and look after both of you.

 

[jonbe54]

The majority have pretty aggressive views too, Catholic Church went okay there for a while. Should have shut that crackpot Copernicus up with a good crucifix up the clacker.

At the end of the day the issue here is about a naughty school boy sign that was dispatched with. I don't think the club needed to dig their heels in over some strange and nebulous revenge fantasy about free speech. They handled it sweetly.

Agree on CC and others - at the end of the day generalities are just that - generalities. Aggressive views from any section of the community should be frowned upon but are generally grist for the media mill.

A balanced and open viewpoint generally achieves much more than a blinkered one.

 

[Swooop]

Reykjavik has nailed it perfectly i believe. Really well said.

Smoky, i also wish you and your son all the best.

 

[jonbe54]

Yes Smoky hope you and son have all the best

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

No, he shouldn't, at least not in this case. If the 'minority' was something like 40/60 then sure. In this case it's something like 2/98, an absolutely insignificant minority that the club should not be attempting to placate, it makes them look gutless and weak, especially because all of it came about because of a powertripping radio host who wanted to stir up some trouble. Treat the issue with the contempt it deserves.

interesting perspective, so it is okay to offend a minority if it is only 2% of the community? Just over 2% of Australians identify as Aboriginal or Torress Strait Islander so it's okay to offend them?

If Blair did not know that his immaturity would generate bad press for the club, he is as thick as a plank.

 

[jonbe54]

Most young blokes are as thick as a plank and the whole minority/majority "issue" has been hijacked by the media which is doing nobody any good.

There really is no issue so long as there is give and take on both sides, its only when one side or both start digging their heels in that an issue arrises and that is usually a personal issue masquerading as a minority/majority issue IMHO

 

[Old Spice]

Reykjavik has nailed it perfectly i believe. Really well said.

Smoky, i also wish you and your son all the best.

Double that.

 

[Zahki]

interesting perspective, so it is okay to offend a minority if it is only 2% of the community? Just over 2% of Australians identify as Aboriginal or Torress Strait Islander so it's okay to offend them?

And what of the conspiracy theorists who believe aliens will invade in 2012? Is it alright for the government to keep ignoring their pleas for a formal response on their concerns? I mean. Aborignals are a minority, and so are conspiracy theorists, both deserve equal consideration right? Think about it.

edit: can probably lock this now, it's well run it's course