List Mgmt. Should I stay or should I go now? End of season list management discussion (now continued for 2020)

[Mercy Seat]

Miles was more than handy during those final few games going into 2018 finals, and I thought he’d be a future gun. Shame it didn’t work out, but it seems it was nothing more than a flash in the pan based on his VFL form.

 

[tige19]

Miles better suited to riding horses as a jockey, I hope he goes down that path.

 

[dcutter]

Schoenmakers has retired, just reported on SEN

 

[TazHawk15]

Well done Shoey you are a Hawk Premiership player and no one can ever take that away from you.

 

[KermitJagger]

Schoe officially retired. Was glad to see him have a good year and an outstanding finals series in 2015. Looked like he could have really started to hit his straps from that point, but unfortunately his body said no.

Really good bloke and seems an exceptional guy to have around the club.

 

[The Jet From Poowong]

Copped a shitload of ridicule early in his career when we threw him to the wolves because we had no one else to play as a key defender, but never gave up.

He well and truly deserved his premiership medallion in 2015 and wasn't just a passenger on the day.

Well done Ryan.

 

[tige19]

Always a fan of Schoe... good luck post footy, you’ll always be a hawk premiership hero.

 

[Hawk Dork]

 

[HODGEYROAD]

Haven't even got through the last five page's of this thread but geez there is a lot of bitching about the bottom three or so players in our best 26 or so, not worth discussing to be honest its called depth even if by default.
My discussion would have us asking why we weren't bolder at the trade table with players that aren't going to be part of our next premiership because from what I'm seeing the tough calls weren't made and we are looking fair and square at a 6th to 10th existence for the next five years.

Very good post mate, but I'm just giving you the heads up that your post won't be well received on here.

 

[KermitJagger]

Haven't even got through the last five page's of this thread but geez there is a lot of bitching about the bottom three or so players in our best 26 or so, not worth discussing to be honest its called depth even if by default.
My discussion would have us asking why we weren't bolder at the trade table with players that aren't going to be part of our next premiership because from what I'm seeing the tough calls weren't made and we are looking fair and square at a 6th to 10th existence for the next five years.

What were the tough calls that you believe should have been made?

 

[tige19]

What were the tough calls that you believe should have been made?

Trading out some premiership players who have regressed from their past glories maybe? Some feel we weren't bold enough, it was made out that we were going to have a real swing at things this off-season when we missed out on Lynch last year, we were now chock full of cash and ready to be aggressive in terms of rejuvenating the list. From where I stand I feel like we have be conservative in terms of the progression of our personnel, we are largely the same mediocre squad as last year with a few vets who have retired or moved on and absolutely no top-end talent coming in.

Last year we made the mistake of believing our squad was good enough to again be a top 4 finisher, we fell substantially short of it, the holes we had last year are still there this year and unless we have a few bolters who progress to elite players then we are likely to be making up the numbers at the bottom of the 8 or just missing out.

I think Gunno was the one that could have been shipped, the return may have been juicy too.

 

[KermitJagger]

Trading out some premiership players who have regressed from their past glories maybe? Some feel we weren't bold enough, it was made out that we were going to have a real swing at things this off-season when we missed out on Lynch last year, we were now chock full of cash and ready to be aggressive in terms of rejuvenating the list. From where I stand I feel like we have be conservative in terms of the progression of our personnel, we are largely the same mediocre squad as last year with a few vets who have retired or moved on and absolutely no top-end talent coming in.

Last year we made the mistake of believing our squad was good enough to again be a top 4 finisher, we fell substantially short of it, the holes we had last year are still there this year and unless we have a few bolters who progress to elite players then we are likely to be making up the numbers at the bottom of the 8 or just missing out.

I think Gunno was the one that could have been shipped, the return may have been juicy too.

From listening to Wrighty talk, I don't think that's the opinion of the club though. Supporters are critical and I guess it's only understandable coming off such a successful period, but the club wouldn't be making the decision to be less aggressive based off of feeling. In particular, I definitely don't think it would be a decision made by Hawthorn to be less aggressive out of sentimentality.

I disagree with how you feel about the list at a pretty fundamental level too. Far more important than simply bringing in talent is gaining an understanding of where your list is at and how it all works together. We had 5 people in our 2015 Grand Final winning team who weren't there in 2012. On the flip side, we have 12 people in our team that won the final game of 2019 that weren't playing in the 2015 Grand Final.

In 2020, that number will be even larger given the return of Tom Mitchell and the arrival of Sam Frost and Jon Patton.

It's understandable for a club to not be at their best for an entire year when they've transitioned so much of their best 22 and are competing against teams like Richmond, whose core hasn't changed from a large extent from their team that lost the final game of 2016 by 113 points, or West Coast, who still have the same core that were developing in their 2015 Grad Final appearance.

It's in the clubs best interest to be the best that they can be every given year, and give themselves a chance to win it every given year. We need to make sure that we're getting value in order to be aggressive and throw away a bloke like Gunston who dropped off form clearly due to injury. The only way you'd do that with a guy who was coming off an AA selection at 27 years of age, is by getting in a guy like Anderson which we were clearly no chance of. It would be a poor decision to throw off the development of continuity for that.

It was obvious from our year this year that we were better than where we finished up, and simply looking at the results you're not going to get the full story. You need to look at how we finished the year, who we beat and in what form and fashion we beat them. The fact is that we beat 3 of the preliminary finalists at the stage of the year where they should have been reaching peak form and solidifying top 4 spots. We did that despite losing the reigning MVP and Brownlow Medallist. You saw some really great football from a bloke like Chad Wingard who struggled in the early part of the year. We saw consistent output from some really good youngsters that appear ready to reach the next level.

Change needs to be calculated and you need to be sure it's the right decision. Change for the sake of change and because you're convinced we have no "top-end talent" coming in isn't calculated nor is it the right decision. To make wholesale changes and be aggressive at this point of our list development would have flown in the face of trusting the development from some of our younger players, and the effort that was put into revitalising and reinforcing our strategies.

But, the fact remains that we won't know until we know, but in 2020 we have a lot to look forward to that makes me believe our prospects will be very bright. Wingard having that late 2019 season output for an entire season will be huge. Tom Mitchell returning will be huge. A full season of continued development from Worps, Scrimshaw, Lewis and even O'Brien will be huge. That's without adding the potential contributions of Frost and Patton into the mix.

 

[Geelongsuck]

Puopolo is getting a 1 year contract by hawthorn.

 

[Falco131415]

Puopolo is getting a 1 year contract by hawthorn.

Source?

 

[Coathanger]

Source?

Doubt you need a source. Not delisted yesterday or retired this morning............

 

[Bumpswithagrin]

Farewell to Brand, Miles, Mirra, Minchington and Mohr. Always enjoyed watching them play, even if it was mostly at Box Hill. I wonder if Dave Mirra will continue to play at Box Hill

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

What were the tough calls that you believe should have been made?

Basically what tige19 has said in a way better than I could myself. I just don't think that we would truly be contending for a number of years and note than happy to be proven wrong as always.
Not to start a brawl on here and I know there are a bunch of people that can't or don't want to see certain players move on but in no particular order I would have liked to have seen what our outcomes would have looked like if Breust, Smith, Gunston have been moved and bring in a new core group that would sustain the next wave.

I say this in peace, I understand that the output of above mentioned would see us maintain similar results for the next year or two but just not IMO when we are next playing the last match for the year.

 

[flinchfree]

Each to their own but I disagree.. Sic and Chad can get there, probably B+

I think Stars are all A grade. Sicily is a star, and so is Chad, Clearly Titch. Big Boy is quite often, Gunston was a couple years back, Breuster can be on a game to game basis. Impey on the verge, Worpel too.
Then there's superstars. Like you said, probably only 30 of those running around and they're A++ players.
Too boring to have nearly everyone in the league be B grade players, no?

 

[flinchfree]

Re brand he had a 29 touch 18 mark game this year against Richmond I think. absolute freak. Wish he was given more opportunities in the senior side. In 2016 when Frawley missed 13 games in a row brand played and look like a star. I will never forget that game he played against buddy at the mcg and against port. Dominated buddy and Dixon.

Uhm, bit much.
I never saw it in Brand. Plenty of players can at their best kinda hold their own for a few games here and there.
That was all he ever supplied at the top level.
The story told earlier by Mud Man rings true for me re his general demeanor.
Never looked a Hawthorn man to me.

 

[TylerDurden]

 

[flinchfree]

It's ironic reading how some posters believe Schoenmakers should be delisted because TOB has gone past him. If it was up to many bigfooty posters, then TOB himself would have been delisted two years ago.

For a while Shoe and TOB were in a race to the bottom of supporter expectation, then a strange(r) thing happened and Timmy found himself in the upside down world.
And it worked for him.

 

[WWSD]

With Schoenmakes retiring and Puopolo signing there's seven vacant list spots to fill. I think Hanrahan and Nash will be elevated to the senior list. Does anybody know what is happening with Jiath? Does he still go into next year as a category B rookie?

5 primary list
2 rookie list

Rookie list
Nash*
Jiath
Jones
Hanrahan*
Reeves
Greaves
Golds

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

I’m happy with Pop having another year.

Hanrahan got a taste but he needs to find consistency in his game, while Moore may find more opportunity in 2020. Its good to have Pop competing for a spot in the 22 with them.

 

[LRobbo]

Being told that Connor Glass will be training this summer as a forward. Will be depth I dare say but has the speed and tackling ability to play a defensive/pressure forward role when called upon

 

[Geelongsuck]

Being told that Connor Glass will be training this summer as a forward. Will be depth I dare say but has the speed and tackling ability to play a defensive/pressure forward role when called upon

Interesting, I personally don’t rate him and can’t see him making it as a good afl footballer. Kicking is shaky and his quite poor in the decision making department. That St Kilda game against lonie got taken to the cleaners. Fwd move is a good move just get him out of the defensive 50!