List Mgmt. Should I stay or should I go now? End of season list management discussion (now continued for 2020)

[PenAndPaper]

Must have a lot of confidence in Frawley's longevity or Kos's development to delist Mirra and Brand....

Did get Frost in thought tbh

 

[Brant]

Must have a lot of confidence in Frawley's longevity or Kos's development to delist Mirra and Brand....

Nah.

We traded for Frost & have TO'B, Sicily & (apparently) BigBoy that can drop into CHB if required - Mirra & Brand behind 4x other players for that role.

 

[KOLOKOTRONIS]

The delistings make sense.

The Mirra experiment failed. He simply wasn’t polished with ball in hand. The mind simply too slow.

Brand... panicked. Lacked mental strength when the going was tough.

Miles... truly unlucky. No love clearly. I felt he was solid however not given a look in. Coaching staff know best

Minchington... speculative at best

KOLOKOTRONIS

 

[MasterSamurai]

So, clarko prefers a ruckman ( Big Boy) as a back up KPD over a KPD ( Brand )!!! That’s a death knell for Kaiden.
Re- schoenmakers, I’m not fussed either way, so if he stays then the medical staff must be really confident in getting him right from this point on.
Gives us flexibility in the key position area which is a good thing imo.

 

[Brant]

The delistings make sense.

The Mirra experiment failed. He simply wasn’t polished with ball in hand. The mind simply too slow.

Brand... panicked. Lacked mental strength when the going was tough.

Miles... truly unlucky. No love clearly. I felt he was solid however not given a look in. Coaching staff know best

Minchington... speculative at best

sh*t post...

The Mirra experiment failed? Or... At about 27 - after watching him for numerous years, we knew EXACTLY what he could/couldn't do & brought him in as baseline cover. AND, he did what was expected of him. Now, we have better options & he's being let go. He didn't fail - neither did we - he was better than the options we had 2x years ago & he's not as good as the current options...

Miles wasn't unlucky at all - it's not like we rolled a dice & he accidentally rolled 5 instead of 3... He's clearly not what we want out of a HBF & so we encouraged him to look elsewhere. UNLUCKILY?, 17x other AFL sides had the same opinion... Sure - it's UNLUCKY that every AFL club values pace, kicking depth, defensive pressure, height, tackling etc., over-head marking & spoiling ability over vision, 20m-35m disposals & rebounding by foot at a mediocre pace, but that's kinda why the draft & trade period exists - for clubs that value these attributes to get hold of them. It's no more luck that Miles 'failed' as it is that Mirra 'failed'.

 

[Davo-27]

IN: Frost, Patton, rookie upgrade #1, rookie upgrade #2 (2 rookies on their 3rd year i believe?), Pick 11, Pick 30, Pick 42, Pick 54, Pick 63 (9 spots)
OUT: Roughead (ret), Mohr* (ret), Birchall (Bris), Pittonet (Carl), Brand, Miles, Minchington, Mirra (7 main list + 1 rookie)

we usually have 38 on main list 8 on rookie list, if 2 rookies upgrade then 35 main and 5 rookies, we could go 5 draft picks and 1 rookie to make it 46 overall? with 40 and 6?

or will Schoenmakers be dropped from the list?

 

[sven_inc]

I understand they found he had a lower back issue that was radiating pain through his lower legs also impacting his agility and leap.

Brilliant to hear!

 

[Spook]

If kosi is to be a long term FB replacement, he needs to be playing in that position every week at box hill learning systems etc

that makes Brand expendable

This is a great point that i believe that most of us, myself included, forget to consider. We always talk about opening up spots in the AFL team to give younger guys a crack but I believe developing in a certain role week after week while in that phase is more important. So many Hawthorn greats did long Twos apprenticeships and I believe we carry that philosophy these days.

 

[Tassie Cryptik]

6 wks ago?
Have we been mismanaging Schoe for years?

 

[Bugs1977]

View attachment 766856
Worpel is well on his way.. same age comparison with Selwood, what a deadset ripper we have with Worpel!

Only have to look at the free kicks for to know it’s Duckwood

 

[Nastyfish]

I Understand the delistings and fully expected them a lil surprised it was both mirra & brand.
My gut feel is Frawley won't play all 22, the point of recruiting Frost was to free up Sic as the 3rd man up.
I can only see Kosi as backup in this space, Tob can play back but not on the monsters he looks best suited up fwd now.
Hopefully we can keep Poppy one more season, there is a few guys from other teams as potional dfa.

There is also the suggested BB to KPD move we tested against the weagles. If Clarko intends to persist with this it’s another reason why we have let go of also those KPDs.

 

[Nastyfish]

Re brand he had a 29 touch 18 mark game this year against Richmond I think. absolute freak. Wish he was given more opportunities in the senior side. In 2016 when Frawley missed 13 games in a row brand played and look like a star. I will never forget that game he played against buddy at the mcg and against port. Dominated buddy and Dixon.

For these few memories there are many more of his shakiness in a 1 on 1 marking contest leading to frees right in front, and even worse his predictable deer in the headlight moments once the ball hit the ground. He had made some marginal gains in recent years and I wouldn’t have been surprised to see him kept, especially over shoe. A fit shoe has much more composure and skill than brand, but I’ve almost forgotten what a fit shoe looks like. He’s very lucky to still be there in my view, especially given we have more forward KP options these days. However good luck to him, hope he can get his body right.

 

[Carl Spackler]

For these few memories there are many more of his shakiness in a 1 on 1 marking contest leading to frees right in front, and even worse his predictable deer in the headlight moments once the ball hit the ground. He had made some marginal gains in recent years and I wouldn’t have been surprised to see him kept, especially over shoe. A fit shoe has much more composure and skill than brand, but I’ve almost forgotten what a fit shoe looks like. He’s very lucky to still be there in my view, especially given we have more forward KP options these days. However good luck to him, hope he can get his body right.

I've long thought that Shoe is half a step slow and lacks the necessary anticipation, but he's a great athlete. I suspect that he's also a good teammate as the club keeps him around even when he can't contribute on field. He's certainly contributing something valuable or he would be delisted. He's very well built, so maybe he's the gold standard for weight room dedication and everyone else in the squad works a little harder when they are in there lifting with him.

Dunno, but I'm not fussed.

 

[Bumps"N"Grins]

Haven't even got through the last five page's of this thread but geez there is a lot of bitching about the bottom three or so players in our best 26 or so, not worth discussing to be honest its called depth even if by default.
My discussion would have us asking why we weren't bolder at the trade table with players that aren't going to be part of our next premiership because from what I'm seeing the tough calls weren't made and we are looking fair and square at a 6th to 10th existence for the next five years.

 

[Agent Smith]

View attachment 766789View attachment 766790

His right, you know.

 

[Carl Spackler]

His right, you know.

Its tough to know when to use apostrophes.

 

[Agent Smith]

It's ironic reading how some posters believe Schoenmakers should be delisted because TOB has gone past him. If it was up to many bigfooty posters, then TOB himself would have been delisted two years ago.

 

[KOLOKOTRONIS]

sh*t post...

The Mirra experiment failed? Or... At about 27 - after watching him for numerous years, we knew EXACTLY what he could/couldn't do & brought him in as baseline cover. AND, he did what was expected of him. Now, we have better options & he's being let go. He didn't fail - neither did we - he was better than the options we had 2x years ago & he's not as good as the current options...

Miles wasn't unlucky at all - it's not like we rolled a dice & he accidentally rolled 5 instead of 3... He's clearly not what we want out of a HBF & so we encouraged him to look elsewhere. UNLUCKILY?, 17x other AFL sides had the same opinion... Sure - it's UNLUCKY that every AFL club values pace, kicking depth, defensive pressure, height, tackling etc., over-head marking & spoiling ability over vision, 20m-35m disposals & rebounding by foot at a mediocre pace, but that's kinda why the draft & trade period exists - for clubs that value these attributes to get hold of them. It's no more luck that Miles 'failed' as it is that Mirra 'failed'.

Love the passion. Keep it up.

Some points to consider.

1) I don’t think Mirra would have seen himself as a two year depth player to be booted out. Perhaps you are right insofar as the club didn’t fail... however Mirra himself would probably say he failed. Players have substantial egos. To be an elite competitor in any sport one needs a healthy sense of self. The spin that the move wasn’t a failed one and no other option presented is speculative imo. Personally I didn’t feel any security with Mirra in the team. Many match day posts to support this. Will maintain the experience wasn’t pleasant.

2) Very harsh on miles. I thought he was fantastic in our 6 game flurry in 2018. His axing and subsequent year out of action was a shock to me. I felt he took his opportunities and contributed to the team when in. Yes he lacked some physical attributes which saved an O’Brien from capturing consistent form after years of mediocrity. I agree his upside may have been somewhat limited but I didn’t feel we exhausted his potential. I could be completely wrong here. Maybe the guy didn’t follow team rules or was an idiot. Just an outsider looking in.

KOLOKOTRONIS

 

[sven_inc]

6 wks ago?
Have we been mismanaging Schoe for years?

The nature of most rehab is that we have a tendency to go after the most obvious/likely things first. It usually takes things to stagnate/worsen before we start looking more broadly and things to drag on for ages unsuccessfully before we look outside the box.

I wouldnt have expected us to have mismanaged him, more so had to keep reviewing things before finally nailing the hidden cause. Like Harley Bennell in a way.

The most important thing is that Tops is reporting they're confident theyve got the full picture now.

 

[tige19]

Love the passion. Keep it up.

Some points to consider.

1) I don’t think Mirra would have seen himself as a two year depth player to be booted out. Perhaps you are right insofar as the club didn’t fail... however Mirra himself would probably say he failed. Players have substantial egos. To be an elite competitor in any sport one needs a healthy sense of self. The spin that the move wasn’t a failed one and no other option presented is speculative imo. Personally I didn’t feel any security with Mirra in the team. Many match day posts to support this. Will maintain the experience wasn’t pleasant.

2) Very harsh on miles. I thought he was fantastic in our 6 game flurry in 2018. His axing and subsequent year out of action was a shock to me. I felt he took his opportunities and contributed to the team when in. Yes he lacked some physical attributes which saved an O’Brien from capturing consistent form after years of mediocrity. I agree his upside may have been somewhat limited but I didn’t feel we exhausted his potential. I could be completely wrong here. Maybe the guy didn’t follow team rules or was an idiot. Just an outsider looking in.

KOLOKOTRONIS

Getting to an AFL list and lasting 2 years is a fail for any player that reaches the pinnacle, for spuds like me who never made it, I would consider it as a success....Mirra isn't an AFL standard footballer, that was plain to see with the ample opportunity he got, at state level he is a star but even the VFL these days is a dog box of a comp.

 

[KermitJagger]

The nature of most rehab is that we have a tendency to go after the most obvious/likely things first. It usually takes things to stagnate/worsen before we start looking more broadly and things to drag on for ages unsuccessfully before we look outside the box.

I wouldnt have expected us to have mismanaged him, more so had to keep reviewing things before finally nailing the hidden cause. Like Harley Bennell in a way.

The most important thing is that Tops is reporting they're confident theyve got the full picture now.

It's hardly the first case of a sports club mismanaging or misdiagnosing an injury either, and I doubt it will be the last.

Like you said - the nature of the beast is that you have to go after the most likely things first. If you hear the sound of hooves on the ground you think Horse, not Zebra.

What makes it difficult is that sometimes the rehab for the unrelated issue might relieve things in the short term, only for it to break down again later which is when you'd start to adjust treatment.

 

[Hawkas1988]

Love the passion. Keep it up.

Some points to consider.

1) I don’t think Mirra would have seen himself as a two year depth player to be booted out. Perhaps you are right insofar as the club didn’t fail... however Mirra himself would probably say he failed. Players have substantial egos. To be an elite competitor in any sport one needs a healthy sense of self. The spin that the move wasn’t a failed one and no other option presented is speculative imo. Personally I didn’t feel any security with Mirra in the team. Many match day posts to support this. Will maintain the experience wasn’t pleasant.

2) Very harsh on miles. I thought he was fantastic in our 6 game flurry in 2018. His axing and subsequent year out of action was a shock to me. I felt he took his opportunities and contributed to the team when in. Yes he lacked some physical attributes which saved an O’Brien from capturing consistent form after years of mediocrity. I agree his upside may have been somewhat limited but I didn’t feel we exhausted his potential. I could be completely wrong here. Maybe the guy didn’t follow team rules or was an idiot. Just an outsider looking in.

KOLOKOTRONIS

I normally agree with most of your posting Kolo but you have it wrong with Miles. He had so many limitations to his game (size, endurance, kicking depth, defensive pressure/ability, strength and more. He didn't improve in those areas. I never saw anything more than a solid VFL level player. The club knew this and I am confident 17 other clubs know this too. After 5 years in the system you would expect to see some improvement in his weaknesses and that just never happened.

 

[Platten44]

Schoey has retired - glad he got a premiership

 

[KOLOKOTRONIS]

I normally agree with most of your posting Kolo but you have it wrong with Miles. He had so many limitations to his game (size, endurance, kicking depth, defensive pressure/ability, strength and more. He didn't improve in those areas. I never saw anything more than a solid VFL level player. The club knew this and I am confident 17 other clubs know this too. After 5 years in the system you would expect to see some improvement in his weaknesses and that just never happened.

I trust your judgement on this one. Didn’t watch box hill. I thought he was reasonable in 2018. Duly noted nevertheless

KOLOKOTRONIS

 

[KOLOKOTRONIS]

Schoey has retired - glad he got a premiership

Yes he did well to get his premiership.

A player that was thrown to the wolves early in his career and never got a run on. Injury riddled.

Remarkable 2015 end to the season, however was again struck down and his body never allowed him to reach his potential and follow up.

A truly beastly body also, had all the physical attributes. A shame really.

Good move on his part to call it quits.

KOLOKOTRONIS