List Mgmt. Should I stay or should I go now? End of season list management discussion (now continued for 2020)

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CHUBBSS

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That’s ignoring the st kilda trade where we gave up pick 7 (2017), 23 and 36 (2016) for pick 10 and 68. All because gc suns wanted a 2016 first rounder.

That trade was the one that sunk us and was why getting JOM was so costly the final trade with Gold Coast wasn’t actually that bad.

But the one with st kilda was one of the worst of all time
The worst part of the trade in hindsight was it sounded like it was hedged on coniglio and well we know how that turned out
 

Stratton24

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That’s ignoring the st kilda trade where we gave up pick 7 (2017), 23 and 36 (2016) for pick 10 and 68. All because gc suns wanted a 2016 first rounder.

That trade was the one that sunk us and was why getting JOM was so costly the final trade with Gold Coast wasn’t actually that bad.

But the one with st kilda was one of the worst of all time
That trade could have made the Gold Coast if they just took what we gave St.Kilda. GC used our pick 10 on an Academy player, clubs never actually use a first rounder on an academy player.
 

Brishawk

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The worst part of the trade in hindsight was it sounded like it was hedged on coniglio and well we know how that turned out
We brought in players to strengthen the team now and make it more appealing to free agents, not just cogs. Clearly, if you miss on the free agents the strategy isn’t going to get you very far. I’m sure we will build a list towards rising up the ladder and luring free agents. That won’t change. Do we approach trades more conservatively? I think the evidence is we are already doing so. Just need to be patient now.
 

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CHUBBSS

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We brought in players to strengthen the team now and make it more appealing to free agents, not just cogs. Clearly, if you miss on the free agents the strategy isn’t going to get you very far. I’m sure we will build a list towards rising up the ladder and luring free agents. That won’t change. Do we approach trades more conservatively? I think the evidence is we are already doing so. Just need to be patient now.
Yup agree, at the time I think it presented like a sound strategy but you might say we overvalued the trade strategy to heavily and meant we sold to many assets to get what we want. But Jager might play a blinder next year, time will tell
 

Noel Gallagher

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Of course at the time we didn't know Cyril was going to retire in his prime
That's interesting because around the same time, Wayne Carey seemed to know, made it public yet got howled down by Clarkson who publicly berated him for making such a huge call when "he wouln't know what went on inside Hawthorns four walls" or similiar. Now i'm no Carey fan but his mail was spot on re Cyril being homesick and wanting to end his AFL career and return home to the Tiwi islands

If Carey knew, are you saying that the club wouldn't have had any idea???
 

Gralin

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That's interesting because around the same time, Wayne Carey seemed to know, made it public yet got howled down by Clarkson who publicly berated him for making such a huge call when "he wouln't know what went on inside Hawthorns four walls" or similiar. Now i'm no Carey fan but his mail was spot on re Cyril being homesick and wanting to end his AFL career and return home to the Tiwi islands

If Carey knew, are you saying that the club wouldn't have had any idea???
Well given Carey said that a full 6 months after we traded for Jaeger and 14 months before he retired is it possible that he wasn't spot on?

It was also before his father's heart attack at the end of 2017 which I think was a real catalyst for him retiring but yes lets credit Carey
 

Bugs1977

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Well I did use the caveat of ‘with hindsight’ for that very reason. Club couldn’t have possibly known what was to come there.
Wasn't there an extract from either Roughie's or Hodgey's book that said that they talked Cyril into not hanging them up the season before he retired? Either way it's obvious that his old man's heart attack was the straw the broke the camels back and like it always should family comes first which from all reports is where Tom Scully finds himself now.
 

Milkshaker

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That's interesting because around the same time, Wayne Carey seemed to know, made it public yet got howled down by Clarkson who publicly berated him for making such a huge call when "he wouln't know what went on inside Hawthorns four walls" or similiar. Now i'm no Carey fan but his mail was spot on re Cyril being homesick and wanting to end his AFL career and return home to the Tiwi islands

If Carey knew, are you saying that the club wouldn't have had any idea???
Yep somehow Carey knew. I suspect Clarko's frustration was more along the lines of a) losing Cyril and b) there had been a leak or similar.
 

Simon Crawshay

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I like to look at trading for players as akin to share trading.

When we were at our peak from 2012 - 2014 we going for the "value" trades ala Goo, Gibbo, Hale, etc. Akin to buying an under researched small cap share that you sense has potential.

Whereas the last 5 years we have gone for the big glitzy trades like JOM, Wingard, Vickery, etc.

I sense the club has realised this strategy has not really worked and is going back to looking for the value trades such as Frosty, Scrimshaw, etc.
 

Brishawk

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I like to look at trading for players as akin to share trading.

When we were at our peak from 2012 - 2014 we going for the "value" trades ala Goo, Gibbo, Hale, etc. Akin to buying an under researched small cap share that you sense has potential.

Whereas the last 5 years we have gone for the big glitzy trades like JOM, Wingard, Vickery, etc.

I sense the club has realised this strategy has not really worked and is going back to looking for the value trades such as Frosty, Scrimshaw, etc.
I really don’t see how you can claim vickery was a glitzy trade when he was neither a trade or glitzy. 🤷‍♂️

What we missed were free agents such as cogs, lynch etc. it left the list too shallow to rise to top four. We brought in jom, wingard and mitchell because if we didn’t we had nothing in that age range that could take the team forward. The hope would have been to land free agents and value trades along the way and rejuvenate the list while we still had players like Gunston, Breust and Rioli. A lot didn’t go right but doesn’t mean it wasn’t our best shot at the time to win another flag. The club have been forced to pivot given no free agents will join us. But the goal will still be to bring in top talent via trade and free agency once we have established an attractive list.
 

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Simon Crawshay

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I really don’t see how you can claim vickery was a glitzy trade when he was neither a trade or glitzy. 🤷‍♂️

What we missed were free agents such as cogs, lynch etc. it left the list too shallow to rise to top four. We brought in jom, wingard and mitchell because if we didn’t we had nothing in that age range that could take the team forward. The hope would have been to land free agents and value trades along the way and rejuvenate the list while we still had players like Gunston, Breust and Rioli. A lot didn’t go right but doesn’t mean it wasn’t our best shot at the time to win another flag. The club have been forced to pivot given no free agents will join us. But the goal will still be to bring in top talent via trade and free agency once we have established an attractive list.
I just feel that the trades we did make to get JOM, Wingard and Mitchell we paid absolute top dollar (Mitchell maybe not so much). The return on capital has not been great (again Mitchell excepted)

During 2012-2014 we were paying bugger all to draft in dual Peter Crimmins winner Gibbo and one of the best ever dual ruck/forward players David Hale. Plus Goo, Lake, etc. Smart, targeted trading at bargain prices.

I understand that the club was going for another flag but it didn't work and I hope we are going back to the value trading model going forward.
 

Brishawk

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I just feel that the trades we did make to get JOM, Wingard and Mitchell we paid absolute top dollar (Mitchell maybe not so much). The return on capital has not been great (again Mitchell excepted)

During 2012-2014 we were paying bugger all to draft in dual Peter Crimmins winner Gibbo and one of the best ever dual ruck/forward players David Hale. Plus Goo, Lake, etc. Smart, targeted trading at bargain prices.

I understand that the club was going for another flag but it didn't work and I hope we are going back to the value trading model going forward.
Lake was a trade and Frawley was a free agent brought in during that window. But we brought in Burgoyne as a top dollar trade, people complained we over paid for both Gibbo and hale all prior to 2011 so not when we were on top but while we were rebuilding on the fly. Goo was much earlier and was a psd pick. The list state in 2009 and 2017 were completely different. We had primary age players in 2009 we just needed to plug some holes.

In 2017 we lacked prime age players. We were far more desperate to bring them in. Mitchell was good value and wingard was not exorbitant. Omeara was really driven by the fact we made multiple trades to satisfy them only for gc to change their mind. The other thing is free agency wasn’t a thing and you couldn’t trade future picks. So the cost of trades generally has gone up because they are no longer constrained by a shortage of picks. Had we landed free agents such as cogs we would be having a very different conversation.
 

Lickmesocks

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The trades and acquisitions via free agency we made after 2010 made perfect sense. We had Mitchell Hodge Roughead Lewis Rioli and a guy named Franklin ready to explode.

The trades and acquisitions after 2015 have been about trying to keep us competitive.

All of the above guns i mentioned were either shipped off or about to be shipped off.

That 2016 season where we finished top 4 and lost to cats and dogs and then the following season top 4 again and got belted by the tigers and demons gave us false hope.

The club has stated many times we will be ruthless in our pursuit of silverware and will trade to keep us at or near the top.

Vickery Patton Scully is an example of us believing we were in a better spot than we were. Cost little in draft picks etc but a truckload in cash and has backfired.

Mitchell Omeara and Wingard was us trying to add some class or face the prospect of bottoming out completely with the loss of all our stars.

The argument/ discussion seems to go on and on. We paid a lot for the above 3 in regards to picks but we have followed the clubs statement about being ruthless on our pursuit of silverware.

What we paid for Omeara is what he produced in his first two seasons but he was never ever going to get back to that form with the knee injury’s he had copped.

Mitchell for pick 14 was a bargain. Brownlow medal..... The fact he broke his leg and has taken two seasons to recover is not our fault.

Wingard is the mystery. Still young enough to influence games and win matches for us . This trade is still a wait and see.

Anyway the club has made some ripper acquisitions and some shockers since 2010 that have not worked out. I spose that’s the game we are in.
 

On Topic

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What we paid for Omeara is what he produced in his first two seasons but he was never ever going to get back to that form with the knee injury’s he had copped.

Wingard is the mystery. Still young enough to influence games and win matches for us . This trade is still a wait and see.
I'm still confident that both of these guys have their best footy ahead of them. In fact, I'd argue very strongly that O'meara's best footy has been played with us already. He just hasn't reached the potential people had hoped.
 

Noel Gallagher

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I'm still confident that both of these guys have their best footy ahead of them. In fact, I'd argue very strongly that O'meara's best footy has been played with us already. He just hasn't reached the potential people had hoped.
Sorry but JOM has his troubled knee strapped for every training session/game. He is not the same player pre knee patella surgery. Was going to be an absolute elite midfielder and is currently B+, can't see him ever reaching those dizzy heights again.

Wingard has no excuse physically, its all between the ears with him - does he want it bad enough to consistently play at an elite level? This year is the year we find out
 

TylerDurden

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I'm still confident that both of these guys have their best footy ahead of them. In fact, I'd argue very strongly that O'meara's best footy has been played with us already. He just hasn't reached the potential people had hoped.
That's my fear with Chad. Had 2 x All Australians in his early years and nothing since. Doesn't look anywhere near as dangerous forward as he did back then. The concern is that his best is behind him. Hence the need to establish him as a midfielder. I just don't think he can have the scoreboard impact that he used to enjoy.
 

derp de derp

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The post 2015 trades were all part of a strategy to back fill from the compromised gws and gcs drafts. If the club was able to hit a few FA targets I believe this strategy would have been more effective and helped the list recover a little faster. The age profile without these trades looks disastrous. Whilst the strategy looks flawed the alternative is just as risky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Lickmesocks

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That's my fear with Chad. Had 2 x All Australians in his early years and nothing since. Doesn't look anywhere near as dangerous forward as he did back then. The concern is that his best is behind him. Hence the need to establish him as a midfielder. I just don't think he can have the scoreboard impact that he used to enjoy.
Chad to the Hawks was not a surprise. Port were sick of his inconsistent performances.

I listened to an interview between Ken and Whately towards the end of that season and Ken basically said we would love the good Chad to be at Port who is invested and motivated etc but could not guarantee he would be at Port the following year.

Chad was on the nose at Port and on the table 100%......

It was no surprise he was traded.

Watching him play in short quality bursts for a qtr and then go completely missing at times is baffling and no doubt would have frustrated Ken and Port.

I am hoping we see the best of Chad for a few years because he is a star when he is on.
 

burner1

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How many players greatly improve after 178 games and 9 years in the afl? Similar to TOB, think we may be stuck with chad’s inconsistency. Port obviously had enough. Seeing a guy with his talent nail a great pass, then miss 2-3 simple disposals under no pressure must drive coaches insane.

I don’t think JOM’s body can handle the loads required over a full season to be an elite player. First game back after a break he’s usually great, then drops back very quickly. Also think his knee has impacted his kicking technique. The guys gives his all, but we just paid too much.
 

PenAndPaperJosh

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Sorry but JOM has his troubled knee strapped for every training session/game. He is not the same player pre knee patella surgery. Was going to be an absolute elite midfielder and is currently B+, can't see him ever reaching those dizzy heights again.

Wingard has no excuse physically, its all between the ears with him - does he want it bad enough to consistently play at an elite level? This year is the year we find out
That's not true, there were games last year that he didn't have either knee taped.
 
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