Should Labour split with the CMFEU?

[Socrates2]

You got some economic modelling I can look at? Cause this stuff is always glibly thrown out there, but I've not yet seen a case that actually stacks up.


Leaving aside the fact that a lot of the people don't accept your premise here, it's not an argument that's going to cut a lot of ice in areas with 25% youth unemployment and little in the way of other job prospects.

It boggles my mind that a lot of the people on this board who despise Thatcher for shutting coal mines in economically depressed regions are gung-ho for doing exactly the same thing here. And they actually expect the CFMEU to get on board!

Do you have any economic modeling that includes impact on the environment and C02 emissions or does that not exist in the free market economy theory? I don't think
John Maynard Keynes was aware of climate change.

 

[Caesar]

Do you have any economic modeling that includes impact on the environment and C02 emissions or does that not exist in the free market economy theory? I don't think
John Maynard Keynes was aware of climate change.

This has nothing to do what we are talking about.

If you are telling people who are going to lose their livelihoods that there are going to be jobs for them outside the coal sector, then you really need to present a robust argument to prove it. If you can't, don't get pissy with them (or their union) for not supporting you.

That's all.

 

[Sainteric]

The green economy will not produce many jobs and not where mining communities are. Green Power has very high upfront costs and then very limited labour inputs for their 25 year life. We don't make any turbines or panels either. Most of the hydros in Qld are now controlled remotely in Brisbane by a few people.

 

[Socrates2]

This has nothing to do what we are talking about.

If you are telling people who are going to lose their livelihoods that there are going to be jobs for them outside the coal sector, then you really need to present a robust argument to prove it. If you can't, don't get pissy with them (or their union) for not supporting you.

That's all.

It's flawed argument that a few short term jobs is somehow more important than compelling scientific evidence. Watch the water table get slowly destoyed ,it's money grabbing madness pushed by revenue hungry governments.

 

[Sainteric]

Do you have any economic modeling that includes impact on the environment and C02 emissions or does that not exist in the free market economy theory? I don't think
John Maynard Keynes was aware of climate change.

Keynes wasnt a free market guy that was Milt who came much later

 

[Caesar]

It's flawed argument that a few short term jobs is somehow more important than compelling scientific evidence. Watch the water table get slowly destoyed ,it's money grabbing madness pushed by revenue hungry governments.

You can say this all you like, but you don't seem to understand that people are not going to vote to slit their own throats and neither are unions.

It easy to decry short term thinking when it is not your short term that is being talked about. If you want people to support getting rid of coal, you need come up with something better than a vague "there will be renewables jobs for everyone".

 

[Socrates2]

You can say this all you like, but you don't seem to understand that people are not going to vote to slit their own throats and neither are unions.

It easy to decry short term thinking when it is not your short term that is being talked about. If you want people to support getting rid of coal, you need come up with something better than a vague "there will be renewables jobs for everyone".

People are voting to slit their throats by destroying the water table aren't they. It's hard for some people to understand the consequences of these mines because they are misled by governments and the pro-coal Murdoch press which has a monopoly on news in Queensland.

 

[go you pups]

Would be great if this line of concern for peoples jobs was held over manufacturing 10-15 years ago...

 

[Socrates2]

Would be great if this line of concern for peoples jobs was held over manufacturing 10-15 years ago...

Yes, I also remember Joe Hockey in 2013 daring Holden to leave the country which they did.

 

[RupieDupie]

The green economy will not produce many jobs and not where mining communities are. Green Power has very high upfront costs and then very limited labour inputs for their 25 year life. We don't make any turbines or panels either. Most of the hydros in Qld are now controlled remotely in Brisbane by a few people.

From your perspective, coal is the power source of the future(?), and Australia has a massive coal deposit, and a large current and future demand from a coal-hungry international Asian market.

What would be the best choice?

a) keep the coal reserves for the good people of Australia
b) have x% control of the global coal market and have Australian coal barons
c) build a railway for and give it to a corrupt organisation for 1500 jobs and a modest tax - "here you go India, we don't need this..."

 

[go you pups]

Yes, I also remember Joe Hockey in 2013 daring Holden to leave the country which they did.

Good old Mr "age of entitlement is over" Hockey

 

[Present Not Past]

You can say this all you like, but you don't seem to understand that people are not going to vote to slit their own throats and neither are unions.

It easy to decry short term thinking when it is not your short term that is being talked about. If you want people to support getting rid of coal, you need come up with something better than a vague "there will be renewables jobs for everyone".

I think this is a weak argument.
People voted for, and continued to vote for, the major economic and social changes that were enacted by the Hawke and Keating Governments during the 1980s and 1990s.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Would be great if this line of concern for peoples jobs was held over manufacturing 10-15 years ago...

It was. We paid millions in subsidies and grants to Ford and GM to keep car manufacturing afloat in Australia.

 

[Caesar]

People are voting to slit their throats by destroying the water table aren't they. It's hard for some people to understand the consequences of these mines because they are misled by governments and the pro-coal Murdoch press which has a monopoly on news in Queensland.

Ah, the old "people who don't agree with me don't know what's good for them". That's a sure-fire votewinner.

Would be great if this line of concern for peoples jobs was held over manufacturing 10-15 years ago...

If you think the circumstances of manufacturing in the mid-2000s are comparable to the circumstances of mining right now, then I'd venture to say that you don't understand either industry very well.

I think this is a weak argument.
People voted for, and continued to vote for, the major economic and social changes that were enacted by the Hawke and Keating Governments during the 1980s and 1990s.

Because they got something tangible in return (health coverage, the Accords, and so forth). What are Labor offering the mining communities of central Queensland, aside from vague promises of environmental improvements and ephemeral jobs in renewables?

If they took a leaf out of Hawke and Keating's book, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Present Not Past]

It was. We paid millions in subsidies and grants to Ford and GM to keep car manufacturing afloat in Australia.

Now we pay that money to companies in Spain to build ships for our Navy.

 

[Socrates2]

Ah, the old "people who don't agree with me don't know what's good for them". That's a sure-fire votewinner.


If you think the circumstances of manufacturing in the mid-2000s are comparable to the circumstances of mining right now, then I'd venture to say that you don't understand either industry very well.


Because they got something tangible in return (health coverage, the Accords, and so forth). What are Labor offering the mining communities of central Queensland, aside from vague promises of environmental improvements and ephemeral jobs in renewables?

If they took a leaf out of Hawke and Keating's book, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I agree with your last point, but if you think right wing politicians and the CMFEU care about the environment or scientific consensus you're wrong.It's a victory for fake news and irresponsibility.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Now we pay that money to companies in Spain to build ships for our Navy.

This is funny because we're actually paying millions more than the Spanish offered to build them in Adelaide.

 

[Caesar]

I agree with your last point, but if you think right wing politicians and the CMFEU care about the environment or scientific consensus you're wrong.It's a victory for fake news and irresponsibility.

When did this conversation become about “right wing politicians” and “fake news”? You’re all over the shop.

Mining unions care about jobs for mining workers. If you show them that mining jobs are unsustainable and that you have a transition plan to put their workers in good alternative jobs, they will support you (just look at the steel industry in the 90s). If not, they won’t.

Dribbling on about environmental responsibility to people directly impacted by this stuff is totally irrelevant and not going to get anybody on board with what you are trying to achieve.

 

[Present Not Past]

This is funny because we're actually paying millions more than the Spanish offered to build them in Adelaide.

Que?

 

[Socrates2]

When did this conversation become about “right wing politicians” and “fake news”? You’re all over the shop.

Mining unions care about jobs for mining workers. If you show them that mining jobs are unsustainable and that you have a transition plan to put their workers in good alternative jobs, they will support you (just look at the steel industry in the 90s). If not, they won’t.

Dribbling on about environmental responsibility to people directly impacted by this stuff is totally irrelevant and not going to get anybody on board with what you are trying to achieve.

The question is how does a ridiculously destructive uneconomical mine get the go ahead ahead of reasoned thought.
A great leader influences public opinion for the better, you somehow think that the regular person who reads Newscorp has a scientific valid position because he gets to vote.No matter how much you spin it, it's a failure of leadership in every political party bar the Greens.

 

[Present Not Past]

Dribbling on about environmental responsibility to people directly impacted by this stuff is totally irrelevant and not going to get anybody on board with what you are trying to achieve.

Yes, we have to get their attention first

 

[Caesar]

A great leader influences public opinion for the better, you somehow think that the regular person who reads Newscorp has a scientific valid position because he gets to vote.No matter how much you spin it, it's a failure of leadership in every political party bar the Greens.

If the Greens are so good at "influencing public opinion for the better", why did their vote go down in Queensland? If the case for what you want to do is so compelling, it should be very easy to go up there and make it to the people affected.

I do admit that it is even easier to characterise anyone who disagrees with you as stupid or misinformed, but that is incredibly lazy and destructive. I am sure you would be the first to decry it if it was coming from people you disagreed with.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Que?

Gran nave cuesta mucho dinero. Nave grande construida en adelaide. viva AMWU

 

[Socrates2]

If the Greens are so good at "influencing public opinion for the better", why did their vote go down in Queensland? If the case for what you want to do is so compelling, it should be very easy to go up there and make it to the people affected.

I do admit that it is even easier to characterise anyone who disagrees with you as stupid or misinformed, but that is incredibly lazy and destructive. I am sure you would be the first to decry it if it was coming from people you disagreed with.

How can the Greens influence public opinion when they are denigrated constantly by Murdoch Press and other politicians. Peter Dutton says they are just as bad as Fraser Anning- that's what you're dealing with.
My comment about leadership was referring to the major parties .The Libs/Nats/One Nation are beholden to the coal lobby and Labor is being led around by the CMFEU, no one has the guts to stand up and lead.

 

[Caesar]

Seems a little convenient to stay that the benchmark of great leadership is influencing public opinion for the better, then in the next breath giving the Greens a free pass because everyone is mean to them.