Should the TAC Cup expand to other traditional football states?

[Established1870]

So roughly a fortnight after the 2016 National and Rookies Drafts, people in SA are still having a cry (mostly Graham Cornes) over barely any of our youth prospects being picked up by AFL clubs. Most rational and sane people here are pointing out that the SANFL are using the U16's and U18's to get one over Victoria rather than actually developing players for the big time like the TAC Cup does. Talent in WA and SA being picked up regularly usually happens in cycles. 5 years ago, everyone thought that WA was running out of talent after having SFA kids picked up. Now? They have four Top 20 picks in this year's draft. 10 years ago, the #1 pick was from SA. This year? No SA kids in the Top 20. Victoria meanwhile consistently pump out gun after gun from most TAC Cup sides every year who go on to have great careers.

Which leads me to my question; Should the TAC Cup expand to other football states outside Victoria?

By traditional states, that means no NSW or QLD, but it does include NT and TAS. The academies are doing a good job of it in the Northern states whilst NT and Tassie aren't big enough to sustain a full version of a TAC Cup but could easily field one or two sides in a bigger state (Tassie-Victoria and NT-SA/WA?).

Taking development away from the state leagues and putting the TAC Cup in SA, WA, NT and Tas would allow budding young players to actually be developed for AFL-level footy rather than state-league footy too. Guys like Jonty Scharenburg would be able to fix perceived flaws in their game or play in a position that suits their ability and physical capabilities better and end up being drafted rather than miss out altogether due to his state-league club concentrating solely on winning and playing him in one fixed position.

People would be up in arms about it and some would be parochial campaigners (mostly Graham Cornes) crying about the AFL (and Vic) invading state footy but it's a million times better for the game if kids are given better pathways like the TAC Cup into AFL footy.


In short, I've given a bare minimum summary of why the TAC Cup existing in every footy state would be good for the game. Feel free to post opinions below.

 

[master bate]

Does anyone in WA or SA care about their state league Colts team? Does anyone care about winning the under 18 state champs, I know I don't care about Vic Metro.

Occasionally you might have a guy like Scharenberg who has been pumped up and possibly overexposed to state league footy to the detriment of his own game but there's been plenty of times when guys like Aish and Trengove have played very well in the SANFL and been drafted highly.

I think WA and SA are far better off saving money by using the existing club infrastructure but then investing in their state under 18 program to oversee the best kids and make sure they have the right approach to preparing draftable kids and in developing the kids in conjunction with the state league teams.

 

[Established1870]

Does anyone in WA or SA care about their state league Colts team? Does anyone care about winning the under 18 state champs, I know I don't care about Vic Metro.

That's not really the point. The point is whilst you Vics have a steady stream of talent always coming through, in the other footy states, talent coming through isn't always flowing.

Occasionally you might have a guy like Scharenberg who has been pumped up and possibly overexposed to state league footy to the detriment of his own game but there's been plenty of times when guys like Aish and Trengove have played very well in the SANFL and been drafted highly.

This is true but having our own version of the TAC Cup would ensure that we have a consistent production line of near-ready AFL players.

I think WA and SA are far better off saving money by using the existing club infrastructure but then investing in their state under 18 program to oversee the best kids and make sure they have the right approach to preparing draftable kids and in developing the kids in conjunction with the state league teams.

Can't comment on WA but in SA the SANFL has come under regular scrutiny for bringing in AFL rejects over properly developing junior players. I (and a lot of other people) personally believe that it's time for the SANFL to hand over the keys and bring the TAC Cup (or something like it) here were players can be properly developed for the AFL rather than North Adelaide or Glenelg.

 

[Garlic muncher]

TAC cup kids in Vic are no better than SA and WA kids, GWS academy over the last couple of years has proven this, they are now prepared better, traditional football area in the Riverina is now pumping them out.

Personally I think VIC clubs draft Vic kids in favour of SA and WA boys, because it makes sense across a number of reasons.

Preparation is the key, they are just that little bit more advanced

 

[Garlic muncher]

From what I have seen in WA, WA boys are extremely underrated, the Vic TAC cup boys play a harder brand of football , therefore are that little bit more prepared for the draft but given a year of two the WZ boys usually seem to play way above their pick the draft

 

[Established1870]

TAC cup kids in Vic are no better than SA and WA kids, GWS academy over the last couple of years has proven this, they are now prepared better, traditional football area in the Riverina is now pumping them out.

I don't think the Academies are comparable to other development pathways as AFL clubs themselves prepare those players which is pretty much the highest development standard a junior player can get.

Personally I think VIC clubs draft Vic kids in favour of SA and WA boys, because it makes sense across a number of reasons.

Player retention/go home factor means there is truth to this but clubs will generally pick up the best kid they can regardless of home state. Carlton got SPS instead of Brodie or Scrimshaw.

 

[master bate]

That's not really the point. The point is whilst you Vics have a steady stream of talent always coming through, in the other footy states, talent coming through isn't always flowing.

This is true but having our own version of the TAC Cup would ensure that we have a consistent production line of near-ready AFL players.

Can't comment on WA but in SA the SANFL has come under regular scrutiny for bringing in AFL rejects over properly developing junior players. I (and a lot of other people) personally believe that it's time for the SANFL to hand over the keys and bring the TAC Cup (or something like it) here were players can be properly developed for the AFL rather than North Adelaide or Glenelg.

Yes there's a steady stream in Victoria but the population of Victoria (5.8 mil) compared to SA (1.6mil) and WA (2.5 mil) means that Victoria should produce easily more than the talent of WA + SA combined each year. That's probably further increased when you factor in how hard it is for kids in remote WA and SA compared to Victoria where there really isn't a remote area as such.

Changing from SANFL colts to TAC wouldn't achieve anything in name only. Those kids wouldn't get better unless you are changing the coaching or competition. Mixing those kids in with the Vic TAC kids would increase the standard of competition, but taking them away from access to SANFL reserves and seniors would remove that advantage that helps a lot of guys get ready for senior footy.

AFL rejects entering the SANFL would only hurt mature draftees not under 18 kids and again, taking the kids from the SANFL system would remove some pretty decent access to former AFL players who probably help coach or mentor the colts team.

The TAC don't work miracles. A lot of AFL clubs aren't a fan of it at all. And the Northern State academies have shown that AFL clubs can probably find and develop kids better if they have the resources, although I think it's a dangerous practice to get AFL clubs involved with juniors too much.

Last year Vic Metro had only 2 late first rounders in Gresham and Fiorini. A handful in the 2nd round and not much more. The SANFL had a much stronger and probably deeper line up of talent led by Francis, Milera, Redman, Partington etc. So SA with 1.6 mil outperformed Metropolitan Melbourne with 4 mil.

 

[coniglio_number1]

Need a Riverina TAC cup team if academies are being wound back. Can't afford to have the drop in NSW numbers given the size of the comp

 

[footyfan1978]

This year? No SA kids in the Top 20. Victoria meanwhile consistently pump out gun after gun from most TAC Cup sides every year who go on to have great careers.

Which leads me to my question; Should the TAC Cup expand to other football states outside Victoria?

By traditional states, that means no NSW or QLD, but it does include NT and TAS. The academies are doing a good job of it in the Northern states whilst NT and Tassie aren't big enough to sustain a full version of a TAC Cup but could easily field one or two sides in a bigger state (Tassie-Victoria and NT-SA/WA?).

Taking development away from the state leagues and putting the TAC Cup in SA, WA, NT and Tas would allow budding young players to actually be developed for AFL-level footy rather than state-league footy too.

In short, I've given a bare minimum summary of why the TAC Cup existing in every footy state would be good for the game. Feel free to post opinions below.

I think you are forgetting something very important. These are still kids. Most have studies and their education is for the most part even more important at this time. Parents want their kids being able to have a schedule not interrupted by travelling interstate semi-regularly for a TAC Cup. The SA kids that make the under age state squads do enough of that, as it is. Not going to happen for under 18 level kids. Playing in their own region and not needing to travel is best for them at this time.
The elite kids that more likely to get drafted get to compete in the national championship.

By the way, Tassie already had an under 18 team in the TAC Cup when it started.
They had the Tassie Mariners until 2002. From memory my club drafted Simon Wiggins from there and Melbourne probably drafted Russell Robertson from there too.

A summary of the TAC Cup history.

The TAC Cup established in 1992 following the disbandment of the VFL/AFL Under 19 competition due to Metropolitan and Country zoning ceasing for AFL clubs.

The TAC Cup is based on geographic regions throughout country Victoria and metropolitan Melbourne with a team representing each of the 12 Victorian regions.

In 1992 the competition consisted of five metropolitan teams and one country team. The initial teams were the Northern Knights, Eastern Ranges, Dandenong Stingrays, Western Jets, Central Dragons and Geelong Falcons.

In 1993 an additional four country teams were included - the Murray Bushrangers, Bendigo Pioneers, Gippsland Power, and Ballarat Rebels. In 1995 two additional metropolitan regions were established with the Oakleigh Chargers and Calder Cannons teams included in the competition. The Tassie Mariners also commenced in the competition in 1995. Finally, in 1996, the NSW/ACT RAMS were admitted to the TAC Cup. The Mariners and RAMS both exiting the competition at the end of the 2002 resulting in the current 12 team competition.

Since 1992 the TAC Cup has become the major source of AFL Draftees with more players recruited to the AFL from the TAC Cup than from any other competition throughout Australia.

The TAC Cup has also been very successful in providing an opportunity for talented country players to play in a very high standard competition without having to relocate to Melbourne and for providing quality young players, not only to the AFL, but also to the senior VFL competition and local country and metropolitan football.

 

[Blackas87]

Does the Sanfl have an under 19's comp?

 

[parano1a]

Need a Riverina TAC cup team if academies are being wound back.

Doesn't the Murray Bushrangers represent the Riverina?

 

[coniglio_number1]

Doesn't the Murray Bushrangers represent the Riverina?

No it represents the Murray.

 

[FootyJunkie]

No it represents the Murray.

especially Lavington/Albury

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Travel would not work

TAC cup is set up so the rural/remote teams play their away games during school holidays, so it doesn't take away from their studies

More teams outside of vic means greater travel, with more time away from school

The best format would be for the CHL model, in which different leagues have their seasons, and the champions (plus a qualifier) play in a tournament at the end of the season

 

[Mitchell Madness]

Doesn't the Murray Bushrangers represent the Riverina?

It doesn't represent the Riverina, however, they used to have a lot of players from the region

The AFL introduced a series of rep games for NSW/ACT, meaning less from nsw choose to play in tac cup (why travel 200+ km each way when you still get the games anyway?)

 

[Established1870]

Yes there's a steady stream in Victoria but the population of Victoria (5.8 mil) compared to SA (1.6mil) and WA (2.5 mil) means that Victoria should produce easily more than the talent of WA + SA combined each year. That's probably further increased when you factor in how hard it is for kids in remote WA and SA compared to Victoria where there really isn't a remote area as such.

I agree with all of this. What I am saying however is that the talent coming out of SA/WA isn't consistent enough. Never in my life time do I expect SA or WA to outperform you lot in the draft in terms of sheer numbers. What I think the TAC Cup would do for SA and WA (and NT/Tasmania) is increase the number of draftees coming from our states, and building a consistent pool of SA, WA, NT and Tasmanian players.

The remote areas in SA and WA (and the NT) compared to Vic are a lot bigger and travel would be an issue but they could be resolved.

Changing from SANFL colts to TAC wouldn't achieve anything in name only. Those kids wouldn't get better unless you are changing the coaching or competition. Mixing those kids in with the Vic TAC kids would increase the standard of competition, but taking them away from access to SANFL reserves and seniors would remove that advantage that helps a lot of guys get ready for senior footy.

This idea would change the coaching and competition. The competition would be other SA TAC Cup sides whilst the coaching would be aimed exclusively at development unlike the SANFL.

Also so I can clarify, I'm not saying that there should be 1 giant TAC Cup across the country. I'm saying there should be a TAC Cup equivalent in every state.

AFL rejects entering the SANFL would only hurt mature draftees not under 18 kids and again, taking the kids from the SANFL system would remove some pretty decent access to former AFL players who probably help coach or mentor the colts team.

After the last few years are you sure that's a bad thing?

The TAC don't work miracles. A lot of AFL clubs aren't a fan of it at all. And the Northern State academies have shown that AFL clubs can probably find and develop kids better if they have the resources, although I think it's a dangerous practice to get AFL clubs involved with juniors too much.

Clubs won't be fans of anything whilst the academies exist but they can go to hell on that one as far as I'm concerned. Looking at it from every angle, the TAC Cup is the best development pathway for kids outside the academies and I agree with you that clubs should steer clear of junior development.

Last year Vic Metro had only 2 late first rounders in Gresham and Fiorini. A handful in the 2nd round and not much more. The SANFL had a much stronger and probably deeper line up of talent led by Francis, Milera, Redman, Partington etc. So SA with 1.6 mil outperformed Metropolitan Melbourne with 4 mil.

The only two SA players that you listed that look like becoming guns or just having AFL-standard careers are Francis and Milera.

 

[Bokonon_]

It's very clear development of youth in SA has to be undertaken through the state league for the reasons other posters have pointed out. Unlike the TAC cup, which is practical because of the size and participation in Victoria, SA has to take responsibility.
Real problem in my view is the SANFL sees itself as a standalone comp and their is real resistance to any AFL development role. I get their position, and spent my youth supporting the Bays, but problems result in developing AFL players.
Two suggestions
1. The Crows and Port are given the unfettered chance to recruit youngsters with AFL potential and develop them. You would think talented kids would want this. I'm talking about recruitment at lower tier comps and developing them through their SANFL sides.They would need allied teams in age based comps to place them initially.The other SANFL clubs clearly wont support this.
There would have to be some preference in drafting as a result similar to the norther clubs academy advantage I would think.
2. Academies for the Crows and Port. The issue I see with this is the way the SANFL works it wouldn't be possible to move players between clubs in the SANFL so academy coaches can work with club coaches effectively. Issues such as playing takent in the position they are likely to make it AFL rather than the clubs need for example need to be addressed, these have been raised by others and make sense to me.

Haven't commented on the WAFL which may be different without the insular nature of the SANFL.

 

[Garlic muncher]

I really get the feeling that the TAC cup are just more rounded and developed, to give you an example from a lower age group our WA club sent a year ten team over to Melbourne for a footy trip and the boys had a game of footy against a Essendon district club team, got absolutely flogged but it wasn't really lack of talent, it had as much to do with tactics.

The Melbourne club team were far more disciplined, ran harder, flooded in numbers, talked louder, encouraged better etc etc.

Our boys had never played a team that flooded, zoned off with those type of numbers which seemed more akin to AFL football than junior football.

The general rule in junior football in WA is dont flood or play extra men in defence etc etc.

The fact that we got flogged made many of their players who were no better than ours skills wise look like world beaters, to me this is like comparing the TAC cup to the WAFL and SANFL colts.

 

[master bate]

I really get the feeling that the TAC cup are just more rounded and developed, to give you an example from a lower age group our WA club sent a year ten team over to Melbourne for a footy trip and the boys had a game of footy against a Essendon district club team, got absolutely flogged but it wasn't really lack of talent, it had as much to do with tactics.

The Melbourne club team were far more disciplined, ran harder, flooded in numbers, talked louder, encouraged better etc etc.

Our boys had never played a team that flooded, zoned off with those type of numbers which seemed more akin to AFL football than junior football.

The general rule in junior football in WA is dont flood or play extra men in defence etc etc.

The fact that we got flogged made many of their players who were no better than ours skills wise look like world beaters, to me this is like comparing the TAC cup to the WAFL and SANFL colts.

That's interesting. I'm the assistant coach for an under 17's team in Melbourne and we won the flag by being a well disciplined and trained team with some of those tactics. We've got a kick out zone, stoppage set ups, kick in tactics, interchange rotations and a few other team rules. No real flooding but the half forwards are expected to get up the ground and the half backs are expected to push up to play in front. And we'll drop a man back if there's a 5 goal wind or we need to sit on a lead. Overall it means the kids still play football and use their skills but it depends a bit on what the other team does as to how the game gets played.

Some teams we played had no discernible game plan. Some flooded back. Others were really strong on man on man all over the ground. So even in one of the better junior comps in Melbourne there's a big range of quality between the development, in my biased opinion.

The TAC teams obviously take the best kids from any local team then teach them what they consider is a form of footy that will showcase their skills as well as prepare them for the AFL. They have strict rules on tagging and rules about players being in each zone of the ground.

TAC coaching is a serious industry here I guess. With many TAC coaches going on to working at AFL clubs and current AFL players often being assistant coaches at TAC level whilst they play to get a taste of coaching. Do the WAFL colts get the same level of semi-professional coaching or is it just mostly old blokes who have done it for 30 years?

 

[marty36]

So roughly a fortnight after the 2016 National and Rookies Drafts, people in SA are still having a cry (mostly Graham Cornes) over barely any of our youth prospects being picked up by AFL clubs. Most rational and sane people here are pointing out that the SANFL are using the U16's and U18's to get one over Victoria rather than actually developing players for the big time like the TAC Cup does. Talent in WA and SA being picked up regularly usually happens in cycles. 5 years ago, everyone thought that WA was running out of talent after having SFA kids picked up. Now? They have four Top 20 picks in this year's draft. 10 years ago, the #1 pick was from SA. This year? No SA kids in the Top 20. Victoria meanwhile consistently pump out gun after gun from most TAC Cup sides every year who go on to have great careers.

Which leads me to my question; Should the TAC Cup expand to other football states outside Victoria?

By traditional states, that means no NSW or QLD, but it does include NT and TAS. The academies are doing a good job of it in the Northern states whilst NT and Tassie aren't big enough to sustain a full version of a TAC Cup but could easily field one or two sides in a bigger state (Tassie-Victoria and NT-SA/WA?).

Taking development away from the state leagues and putting the TAC Cup in SA, WA, NT and Tas would allow budding young players to actually be developed for AFL-level footy rather than state-league footy too. Guys like Jonty Scharenburg would be able to fix perceived flaws in their game or play in a position that suits their ability and physical capabilities better and end up being drafted rather than miss out altogether due to his state-league club concentrating solely on winning and playing him in one fixed position.

People would be up in arms about it and some would be parochial campaigners (mostly Graham Cornes) crying about the AFL (and Vic) invading state footy but it's a million times better for the game if kids are given better pathways like the TAC Cup into AFL footy.


In short, I've given a bare minimum summary of why the TAC Cup existing in every footy state would be good for the game. Feel free to post opinions below.

Majority of players drafted out of SA are private school kids, these schools will not allow their students to play outside of the school system except on may 3 or 4 occasions throughout the year.

I think most would be happy if the AFL took on the responsbility of running an acadamey in SA or forming a team to play in Victoria, like I said they wouldnt get the private school kids for the majority of the seasons those schools simply wont allow it.

Would the AFL want to commit to that, There already are issues with finances in the AFL, currently the players want more, the clubs definatly want more distribution as someone are really really struggling, then you have the Queensland money pit, the NEAFL suck funds and millions

If the AFL did such a thing for SA, WA must have that allocated also

The thing the AFL like about both the SANFL and WAFL it is run largly by volunteers as people have links to these community clubs, for teh AFL to run anything in SA or WA , that will cost as people will not volunteer they will expect to be paid.

 

[Bokonon_]

Majority of players drafted out of SA are private school kids, these schools will not allow their students to play outside of the school system except on may 3 or 4 occasions throughout the year.

I think most would be happy if the AFL took on the responsbility of running an acadamey in SA or forming a team to play in Victoria, like I said they wouldnt get the private school kids for the majority of the seasons those schools simply wont allow it.

Would the AFL want to commit to that, There already are issues with finances in the AFL, currently the players want more, the clubs definatly want more distribution as someone are really really struggling, then you have the Queensland money pit, the NEAFL suck funds and millions

If the AFL did such a thing for SA, WA must have that allocated also

The thing the AFL like about both the SANFL and WAFL it is run largly by volunteers as people have links to these community clubs, for teh AFL to run anything in SA or WA , that will cost as people will not volunteer they will expect to be paid.

Fair point
Dont younthink the AFL clubs might do a better job than the AFL could do though? I'm thinking long term with the Northern clubs advantages. The NEAFL is fundamentally different to the SANFL with the AFL funding and running it so it fits academies a whole lot better, becuase of the defferent perception of itself.
Just curious

 

[marty36]

Fair point
Dont younthink the AFL clubs might do a better job than the AFL could do though? I'm thinking long term with the Northern clubs advantages. The NEAFL is fundamentally different to the SANFL with the AFL funding and running it so it fits academies a whole lot better, becuase of the defferent perception of itself.
Just curious

I think the clubs would run it better, but I simpy cant imagine the Victorian clubs in particular giving SA and WA the pick of the talent from those football states to be divided up between two clubs. And if those clubs arent benefited in running it they wont do it

 

[Bokonon_]

I think the clubs would run it better, but I simpy cant imagine the Victorian clubs in particular giving SA and WA the pick of the talent from those football states to be divided up between two clubs. And if those clubs arent benefited in running it they wont do it

Tks
Was curious about the perspective you have. It will be interesting see where academies go. I kinda get the reaction from Vics they're not interested in returning to a failed zone system.

 

[marty36]

Tks
Was curious about the perspective you have. It will be interesting see where academies go. I kinda get the reaction from Vics they're not interested in returning to a failed zone system.

The zone system seems defunct with obvioulsy the national draft in place. It actually seems unfair on Victorian teams by handing out academies when there are 10 Victorian clubs having to share in the state, I suppose you could hand the NT or Tassie to them aswell, but they would be at a disadvantage, and although we saw 9 NSW kids drafted and only 6 SA kids in the national draft that was media hype on those kids. SA came second in the championship and NSW cant even put a stand alone team in the comp ass they simply arent strong enough, SA flogged the allies which is a combine team, imagine what they would have done to NSW, yet we saw a comparison of 9 to 6. A few clubs might be asking about the quality of the draftees in a few years.

 

[madmug]

So flying kids all over the country is possibly good for what reason? The cost would be huge, the value would be, ???

If the SANFL, WAFL & maybe VFL are effectively cut out of elite development, what is the future of those clubs? What do we fall back onto if we suddenly need these clubs to revamp development if the above plan fails?

Where do the late developers & overseas recruits go for a decent professional standard of game?

No I think the state leagues have a place & should be a strong part of the system.