List Mgmt. Should We Add A Mature Age Ruckman To Our List?

[shewho]

At the time of this poll we have Ryder, Frampton and Ladhams* as our real ruckmen with possible support from Westhoff, Howard, Dixon and Watts.

Opinion seems divided as to whether this is all that we need in the Post-Richmond (use Grigg or Rioli) era, with some suggesting a "break-glass" ruckman will stifle Frampton's development. Then there's the "2016 never again camp" who never want to see a repeat of a season when a key position player has to lead the line.

I'm firmly of the latter camp. I consider a mature age ruckman as our top priority before lists are finalised. Let's not let a premiership tilt be derailed by repeating the errors of only 2 years ago.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Yes, on the proviso that a) it’s the rookie list and b) the ruckman in question accepts that he’s going to be behind both Ryder and Frampton in the pecking order.

Currie or Spencer would be my picks.

 

[StuMan]

What's the deal with Spencer? I thought he looked fairly serviceable from the JLT games I saw him play. Injuries, or do Melbourne have better back ups?
Seems like a decent rookie list back up ruck.

 

[Fizzler]

I'd go for Nick Meese (maybe because I like Williamstown though)
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2017-09-20/why-isnt-vfl-ruck-star-nick-meese-playing-afl

 

[Forzaport]

Find me a mature ruck that isn’t a list clogging spud and that will offer more than the combined efforts of Westhoff/Watts/Dixon if Ryder & Frampton are unavailable and I’ll consider it.

If there’s another Nankervis out there that’s free I’m game, otherwise it’s a solid no.

 

[Launchpad McQuack]

Opened thread expecting a poll.

No Jack Watts option, left disappointed.

 

[Nemisis]

Iv'e vote YES - equal rights and all that...

 

[Fade to Gray]

It depends on where the club views Frampton/Ladhams. (As a ruck I'm not so keen on Frampton, despite Limited opportunities, I like what I have seen from Ladhams)

If we draft a Mature age Ruckman, then they are just going to affect the development of both Frampton and Ladhams. The mature age Ruck will take valuable SANFL ruck minutes from both Frampton and Ladhams. Lobbe took a lot of the ruck time away from Frampton and Ladhams this year. Ladhams barely had a run in the ruck at all.

Frampton is approaching his 4th year on the list, if he doesn't get a go soon, then he will be delist material or may seek opportunity elsewhere.

While, not ideal we have a few other players capable of playing some ruck minutes (Dixon, Howard, Watts, Westhoff). If Ryder is out for a week or two, we can probably cover it. If he is out for a long time, I can't see someone like Clarke/Spencer/Currie helpting much.

 

[TeeKray]

I think the concerns re stifling William Frampton's development come from the realisation that a Spencer or a Clarke type would actually be a better ruck option in 2018 than Frampton. That's a fair enough concern but somewhat less of a concern in the 2018 Port Adelaide world of loading up for a right here, right now premiership tilt. Yes from me.

 

[Portology]

As a rookie, yes. As DFA, probably no.


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[RussellEbertHandball]

We should always have 6 proper rucks on a list of 47. 4 genuine rucks in a list of 44, 3 which are ready to go ie they are at least 21 and an AFL ready body which allows for injuries and insurance and at training you have enough to test the squad and you have different types, the athletic bugger, the big huge monster and the in betweener and 1 developing from being a skinny kid into having an AFL body. You also have 2 big bastard Category B players 205cm/110kg types from Basketball, Volleyball USA, China etc and keep turning them over if need be until you find a gem like Brogan or a solid bloke like Barnaby French or a foreigner like Mike Pyke or Jim Stynes.

The bloke I want to consider this year is Scott Jones, the 22 year old from East Perth, so he has been training with the WCE guys and is better than Giles but was forced to play 2nd fiddle to him at East perth. He was highly rated as a 17 year old kid, had an AIS-AFL scholarship. Broke his ankle at the start of his U/18 year in 2013 and was ignored in the draft as he plummet down the ranks. Did his shoulder in 2015 and missed a big chunk of that season. He is 204cm and 109kgs so we don't have to feed him and develop his body.

When we play Adelaide, if we get him, Ryder rucks against him for at least 3 hours a day every second day so he gets used to having to jump over a big bastard like he will against Jacobs. Ryder hasn't beaten Jacobs in his time at Port so extra practice against a monster wont hurt. Jones can also be used to practice against Ryder in the lead up to finals so you don't have the rubbish of Vardy and Petrie double teaming Ryder to completely nullify him. You play how you train isn't a clique for no reason. No point having a paper thin ruck list to train nothing like you are going to face on game day.

 

[jdeezy]

We unquestionably need one. Everyone saying that it will hurt Frampton's development, I strongly disagree. In fact, I'd say the opposite - having Frampton ruck largely on his own (yes we have Ladhams but man he is young and raw), even in just the SANFL, runs the risk of giving him huge fatigue (as noted, Lobbe has shouldered a lot of it recently, its a big step up), but also robs him of chances to play Forward, and our aim is to have him as a Ruck/FWD long term, isn't it? Thats not even beginning to mention what happens if Ryder does an ACL early and Frampton has to play 15-20-odd games as a lead ruck in an AFL team.

Frampton gets first dibs, absolutely, but the Mature Aged ruck, whoever it is (I also like the idea of Spencer) is there to support him and come in if it doesn't work out.

Get one. Definitely get one.

 

[shewho]

I don't get the "No" campaign.

Who rucks if Ryder and Frampton are unavailable? That's hardly an unforeseeable event. What if that event is GF day against the Cows? Jacobs gets 50 + hit outs, marks at will around the ground etc etc.

Even a Currie or Spencer could limit the damage if that were to occur.

 

[VineValerian]

As a rookie, yes. As DFA, probably no.


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Agree. As a break glass should Paddy go down.
Framps and Laddo to do most of the ruckwork in the SANFL. Mature rookie to provide chop outs and spend much of his time in the F50.
Otherwise no.

 

[Magus]

I don't see any logical reason why we wouldn't.

We're stacked for depth in every other position. I don't see why the ruck position should be any different. We're not going to draft a world beater, this is insurance only.

 

[Coobk001]

This is a tough one.

If Frampton learns how to ruck over the preseason then the answer is NO.

If Frampton is still struggling as a ruckman early next year then the answer should've been yes but only with hindsight did we find it out.

He's great around the ground for a ruckman, he's an outstanding around the ground mark and he's shown he is ok up forward, but his ruck craft has been mediocre at best. He often would have 5-10 hitouts across a game compared to his opponents 20-30. If that's happening at SANFL he has a big jump to make to be competitive at AFL level.

I think what tips me over the line and says yes is that we don't have the Trengove backup we did last year. So I think I'd vote for yes, but only as a 1 year stop gap on the rookie list.

 

[Forzaport]

I don't get the "No" campaign.

Who rucks if Ryder and Frampton are unavailable? That's hardly an unforeseeable event. What if that event is GF day against the Cows? Jacobs gets 50 + hit outs, marks at will around the ground etc etc.

Even a Currie or Spencer could limit the damage if that were to occur.

It's quite simple. A Currie or a Spencer would get absolutely destroyed by Jacobs. If we don't have a ruck available that can at least contest, have to find advantages elsewhere and rely on the part timers to carry the ruck.

 

[edgie]

I'd rather another KPP, we know Hoff and Dixon are serviceable chop out rucks but it can leave us short of attacking or tall loose back options. The only reason I can think of for a mature dedicated ruck is injury emergency.

 

[Coobk001]

We should always have 6 proper rucks on a list of 47. 4 genuine rucks in a list of 44, 3 which are ready to go ie they are at least 21 and an AFL ready body which allows for injuries and insurance and at training you have enough to test the squad and you have different types, the athletic bugger, the big huge monster and the in betweener and 1 developing from being a skinny kid into having an AFL body. You also have 2 big bastard Category B players 205cm/110kg types from Basketball, Volleyball USA, China etc and keep turning them over if need be until you find a gem like Brogan or a solid bloke like Barnaby French or a foreigner like Mike Pyke or Jim Stynes.

The bloke I want to consider this year is Scott Jones, the 22 year old from East Perth, so he has been training with the WCE guys and is better than Giles but was forced to play 2nd fiddle to him at East perth. He was highly rated as a 17 year old kid, had an AIS-AFL scholarship. Broke his ankle at the start of his U/18 year in 2013 and was ignored in the draft as he plummet down the ranks. Did his shoulder in 2015 and missed a big chunk of that season. He is 204cm and 109kgs so we don't have to feed him and develop his body.

When we play Adelaide, if we get him, Ryder rucks against him for at least 3 hours a day every second day so he gets used to having to jump over a big bastard like he will against Jacobs. Ryder hasn't beaten Jacobs in his time at Port so extra practice against a monster wont hurt. Jones can also be used to practice against Ryder in the lead up to finals so you don't have the rubbish of Vardy and Petrie double teaming Ryder to completely nullify him. You play how you train isn't a clique for no reason. No point having a paper thin ruck list to train nothing like you are going to face on game day.

6!!! I'm guessing you've explained it somewhere before that I haven't read but I can't agree there. I think 4 is more than enough if you're structure is like ours with a lot of mobile tall pinch hitters like Westhoff, Watts and Charlie. That's 1 AFL, 1 backup, 1 developing kid and 1 rookie. Ie. Our balance last year wwas perfect.

Maybe in sides that play 2 rucks we're talking 5, but 6 would be a waste I reckon.

 

[charcolechaddy]

Can Macca give us some choices.

 

[Schulzenfest]

I don't get the "No" campaign.

Who rucks if Ryder and Frampton are unavailable? That's hardly an unforeseeable event. What if that event is GF day against the Cows? Jacobs gets 50 + hit outs, marks at will around the ground etc etc.

Even a Currie or Spencer could limit the damage if that were to occur.

Because some people are looking at this and asking why would we bring in a ruck to compete with Frampton. If that was what we were doing I’d understand the concern, but that’s not what we’re talking about doing. We’re talking about bringing in someone to play if Ryder and Frampton are unavailable.

 

[rumoursofwinter]

It's quite simple. A Currie or a Spencer would get absolutely destroyed by Jacobs. If we don't have a ruck available that can at least contest, have to find advantages elsewhere and rely on the part timers to carry the ruck.

Afl prospectus 2017 edition.

Currie faced four premier ruckman in his short stint in the AFL last season, encountering Todd Goldstein, Max Gawn, Sam Jacobs and Zac Smith in his four games. Despite the quality of his opposition, he still rated above average for hitout win rate and average for hitout to advantage win rate. He had a high contested rate, rating above average for contested possessions but only won 2.8 uncontested possessions per game, the third fewest of the 34 ruckman to play four games.

Disposals 10.0 afl ave 11.8
Retention 75.0 afl ave 69.8
CP 7.8 afl ave 6.9
up 2.8 afl ave 5.2
m 4.0 afl ave 2.8
cm 2.3 afl ave 1.0
ground ball gets 4.5 afl ave 4.0
intercept possession 3.0 afl ave 2.0
Hitouts 30 afl ave 23.8
%win 44.7 afl ave 40.8
hitout to advantage 8.5 afl avr 6.8
%win 12.4 afl ave 11.6

So, against the best rucks in the competition he was above average.

I am swayed by the no argument,that if Ryder is injured, Port might as well close down for the year.

Ryder last played a full season in 2008. Oops. Toumpas for ruck.

With only 44 players able to play on our list it would be irresponsible to have two rucks on our list who could compete as the first rucks for the year. Currie would demand almost one percent of our salary cap. This is untenable.

If we trade Lobbe and Trengove, it would be ridiculous to replace them with one player capable of rucking who would be on a tenth of their combined wage. Billy Frampton would be entitled to storm out of the club if Port replaced two of his competitors for a spot with one backup ruck. Billy Frampton was rated as poor for his ruckwork in his draft year. The club must provide him with no competition for his position. Ryder must never have a break. He did it once ten year ago. Carn. Lets get flankers.

 

[JimmyBeerCans]

Because some people are looking at this and asking why would we bring in a ruck to compete with Frampton. If that was what we were doing I’d understand the concern, but that’s not what we’re talking about doing. We’re talking about bringing in someone to play if Ryder and Frampton are unavailable.

The bizarre notion that if something happens to Ryder the season is over is what gives me the shits it's like some of our illustrious posters have never seen some of these immobile dinosaurs with premiership medals in the last decade.

 

[1954]

Those who voted no have obviously forgotten how Max Gawn absolutely schooled the Power rucks ( which included Lobbe, Trengove and Westhoff ), in that preseason game at the Ponderosa a few seasons ago, that was as big a ruck smashing as you could ever see, and to go into next season without a back up for Ryder in case of a long term injury is in my humble opinion way too risky.

Ladhams is likely to be at least 2 years off becoming AFL quality, and even if Wild Billy is up to the standard ( which is still the big unknown ) he is unlikely to be robust enough to survive the pounding he would get from the AFL big boys without some genuine support.

 

[Schulzenfest]

The bizarre notion that if something happens to Ryder the season is over is what gives me the shits it's like some of our illustrious posters have never seen some of these immobile dinosaurs with premiership medals in the last decade.

I'm sure we'll be able to pick up somebody in the rookie draft at least as good as Brent Renouf, Mark Blake or Aaron Keating.

Even we managed to make a prelim with a bloke who we just traded away for pick 95. Would we have made it that year without him? Probably not.