Discussion Should we go after Alastair "Brick Bandit" Clarkson?

[StCicatriz]

Finals or bust.

I don’t buy that expectations were us not playing finals.

My expectations were based on 2020 (making finals) rather than 2021. Bassett also said our window starts this year.

Constant shifting of the goal posts to excuse failure (which our club is great at) is a sign of a poor organisation.

After failed rebuilds since 2012, we just need to shut up and start winning games of football. Nothing else matters.

Knowing he’s available, getting the greatest coach in history (who happens to be a hard arse with high standards) down to our club would be a good start on the winning matches front and the club have to move heaven and earth to get it done.

100% this

the president said at the end of 2020 we would challenge and look to go another step in 2021. when this didnt happen he told everyone it would be 2022.

so i'm not sure why we are now saying finals were not an expectation. its an out and out mistruth.

 

[StCicatriz]

So a finals win for you?

lets concentrate on making finals first!!!! that gets ratts in consideration for an extension.

 

[gringo2011]

For those that want Ratts sacked what is a pass mark from here? 12 wins missing finals? Finals but get flogged? Finals but a narrow loss? Finals win? Prelim? Flag?

Let's also keep in mind expectations going into the season that we weren't a finals team. Expectations changed because we exceeded them.

Finals. We got promised that after last year, we’re in challenge mode with a finals ready list and not many injuries.

 

[George]

Finals or bust.

I don’t buy that expectations were us not playing finals.

My expectations were based on 2020 (making finals) rather than 2021. Bassett also said our window starts this year.

Constant shifting of the goal posts to excuse failure (which our club is great at) is a sign of a poor organisation.

After failed rebuilds since 2012, we just need to shut up and start winning games of football. Nothing else matters.

Knowing he’s available, getting the greatest coach in history (who happens to be a hard arse with high standards) down to our club would be a good start on the winning matches front and the club have to move heaven and earth to get it done.

I feel the same way regarding expectation. Finals is the absolute minimum expectation for me. With the start we had, anything but finals would be a pretty significant failure in my eyes.

I can't quite agree with you on the coach however. I mean I can but I can't. In a perfect world we wait until the end of the season, find out if we made the eight or not, and then make a decision. I would love if we could do that but history suggests coaching decisions are made well before that point in a season and if they haven't been made by that point in a season the coach is generally out the door. We are in a tricky situation of having an OOC coach who will be told of his future in the next couple of weeks coupled with it happening during a time that we've been playing poorly. It's a bigger perceived risk to re-sign him now because of the form we're in. Does the club trust the first half of the year was legitimate improvement/form or not.

I completely understand where you guys are coming from with wanting to wait, again I'm in that boat too but I'm looking at how the industry operates, waiting like that never happens.

There's also the standard practice of giving a coach a minimum offer of 2 years. So if we do re-sign Ratten, most likely he is contracted until at least the end of 2024. I think regardless of how well we are going, if we were 14-0 or 8-6, I think everyone here wants 2 years and 2 years only. Anything beyond that would apply if he took us to a preliminary final at the least.

I won't be frustrated or angry if we re-sign Ratten in the next couple of weeks to a 2 year deal, knowing how the industry usually operates and the history of coaches that have re-signed prior to Ratten. I guess I'll just be worried, especially if this downward trend continues.

There's also the internal divide that hasn't really been mentioned in this discussion. If we end up waiting until end of season and Ratten turns the ship around and takes us to the finals, perhaps winning one, where does that leave Ratten's relationship with the football club? It shows a level of distrust from the club to Ratten IMO and I can easily see how that dynamic could sour the relationship which then has the possibility of seeping through to the other areas of the football department and by that point things slowly begin to unravel. These are the risks you take when you hold off until the last minute to put your faith in someone.

If that scenario ends up playing out, be it privately or publicly, the industry will know about it. Anyone we are looking to bring into the football club (in a coaching capacity or not) will see how we have treated how employees and if that brings about concern around their own job security or not. They must ask themselves if they want to work for someone who thinks very little of their employees job security. If that person is sought after enough, aren't they likely to just look elsewhere?

It's easy to just say we can wait to find out then make a decision but there's other circumstances in play that will indirectly influence other areas of the football club. We either tell Ratten in the next couple weeks he is staying or we tell him he's going. We need to make a decision.

Personally I believe he's probably already signed a new deal anyway but if he hasn't it's coming and it's coming soon.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

We massively over complicate things at this club.

2022 should have been really simple: in fact we were in a great position when you think about it.

We either made finals under Ratts which was obviously a win.

Or we don’t and we have a very good chance to pick up the greatest coach of the modern era and maybe all time.

Somehow we are managing to shank it.

And the way we are shanking it is pretty unforgivable.

Why’s that your ask? Well, because we are making the exact same mistake we as a club made back in 2017 by re-signing a coach based on a good first half of a season.

Of all the mistakes we could make, the above one is unfathomable.

I’m generally an optimist and think it’s not too late to back out of the Ratt’s deal and make a proper play at Clarko.

But if we do manage to * this up, I have no doubt there’ll be pitchforks out at Moorabbin looking for blood to be spilled from the board. Our fans will have had enough and who can blame them after our dreadful decade since 2012.

 

[lewdogs]

People need to realise that it's more nuanced than just "make finals and he stays, miss and he's out". If it was that simple then that would be fantastic but it's not.

There'd be other factors going into the decision. Have we moved in the direction that we are wanting? Are we getting improvement out of the players? Are there factors (some we may not even know about) that have potentially held us back this season?

I just think people need to realise that it's not necessarily some epic failure of the club to stick with a guy even though he may not have met the expectations yet. Maybe we miss finals this year but then race up the ladder next year under Ratten, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Everyone seems to want it to be simple but it's just not.

Melbourne spent two years out of the finals before a flag. Richmond lost elimination finals three years running and then finished 13th before they won it, you can bet their supporters were wanting Hardwick's head.

A lot of our supporters are basically setting themselves up for a summer of rants about the incompetence of the club for not just sacking Ratts and grabbing a shiny toy like Clarkson, but shiny toys don't necessarily win flags, and if you look at recent history the teddy bear missing an eye that you've got in your hand has actually proven to be more valuable.

If we miss the finals then I'll be bloody disappointed as I'm sure the entire club will be but I still don't think that necessarily warrants sacking Ratts.

 

[gringo2011]

People need to realise that it's more nuanced than just "make finals and he stays, miss and he's out". If it was that simple then that would be fantastic but it's not.

There'd be other factors going into the decision. Have we moved in the direction that we are wanting? Are we getting improvement out of the players? Are there factors (some we may not even know about) that have potentially held us back this season?

I just think people need to realise that it's not necessarily some epic failure of the club to stick with a guy even though he may not have met the expectations yet. Maybe we miss finals this year but then race up the ladder next year under Ratten, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Everyone seems to want it to be simple but it's just not.

Melbourne spent two years out of the finals before a flag. Richmond lost elimination finals three years running and then finished 13th before they won it, you can bet their supporters were wanting Hardwick's head.

A lot of our supporters are basically setting themselves up for a summer of rants about the incompetence of the club for not just sacking Ratts and grabbing a shiny toy like Clarkson, but shiny toys don't necessarily win flags, and if you look at recent history the teddy bear missing an eye that you've got in your hand has actually proven to be more valuable.

If we miss the finals then I'll be bloody disappointed as I'm sure the entire club will be but I still don't think that necessarily warrants sacking Ratts.

Pretty the same people who said the same about Richo at the same point. Our longest serving coach who holds the record for most coached games without a final.

 

[NarklesHelmet]

People need to realise that it's more nuanced than just "make finals and he stays, miss and he's out". If it was that simple then that would be fantastic but it's not.

There'd be other factors going into the decision. Have we moved in the direction that we are wanting? Are we getting improvement out of the players? Are there factors (some we may not even know about) that have potentially held us back this season?

I just think people need to realise that it's not necessarily some epic failure of the club to stick with a guy even though he may not have met the expectations yet. Maybe we miss finals this year but then race up the ladder next year under Ratten, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Everyone seems to want it to be simple but it's just not.

Melbourne spent two years out of the finals before a flag. Richmond lost elimination finals three years running and then finished 13th before they won it, you can bet their supporters were wanting Hardwick's head.

A lot of our supporters are basically setting themselves up for a summer of rants about the incompetence of the club for not just sacking Ratts and grabbing a shiny toy like Clarkson, but shiny toys don't necessarily win flags, and if you look at recent history the teddy bear missing an eye that you've got in your hand has actually proven to be more valuable.

If we miss the finals then I'll be bloody disappointed as I'm sure the entire club will be but I still don't think that necessarily warrants sacking Ratts.

Again, it’s over complicating things comparing us to Richmond or Melbourne and the situations are nothing like ours.

We are almost making excuses how NOT to be successful when success through hiring Clarko is staring us in the face.

1. Richmond: Clarko wasn’t available. This is the big one. They’d also played final’s footy consistently.

2. Melbourne: Clarko wasn’t available. They were stuck with a lame duck coach like we are and went radical getting in two blokes to assist who were/are good enough to coach in their own right. Then went on to win it straight away with a completely different structure and game plan.

The greatest coach of all time who has done it all (started from nothing, reinvented teams both tactically and list wise to win again and again and again) is available.

We are a team and organisation who are crying out for standards to be set across the board.

Clarkson just happens to be someone not too old that would likely love the challenge of getting a club like ours over the line.

I also have a strong suspicion he’d love to show Jeff Kennett that he has/had plenty of fuel left in the tank.

We will have a motivated Clarko putting us in our rightful place of being THE powerful club in the south of the City. The Hawks and Kennett will be run out of Dingley once Clarko is done with us.

 

[lewdogs]

Pretty the same people who said the same about Richo at the same point. Our longest serving coach who holds the record for most coached games without a final.

There's the lack of nuance right there. You're basically saying because of Richo we should sack any coach that doesn't make finals two years in a row.

Also it's not the same people there's a very different group of people at the club now.

 

[StCicatriz]

People need to realise that it's more nuanced than just "make finals and he stays, miss and he's out". If it was that simple then that would be fantastic but it's not.

There'd be other factors going into the decision. Have we moved in the direction that we are wanting? Are we getting improvement out of the players? Are there factors (some we may not even know about) that have potentially held us back this season?

I just think people need to realise that it's not necessarily some epic failure of the club to stick with a guy even though he may not have met the expectations yet. Maybe we miss finals this year but then race up the ladder next year under Ratten, wouldn't that be a good thing?

Everyone seems to want it to be simple but it's just not.

Melbourne spent two years out of the finals before a flag. Richmond lost elimination finals three years running and then finished 13th before they won it, you can bet their supporters were wanting Hardwick's head.

A lot of our supporters are basically setting themselves up for a summer of rants about the incompetence of the club for not just sacking Ratts and grabbing a shiny toy like Clarkson, but shiny toys don't necessarily win flags, and if you look at recent history the teddy bear missing an eye that you've got in your hand has actually proven to be more valuable.

If we miss the finals then I'll be bloody disappointed as I'm sure the entire club will be but I still don't think that necessarily warrants sacking Ratts.

you are massively over complicating it:

• melbourne still made a prelim
• richmond still made finals twice!!!

if ratten made finals twice he would have got an extension like dimma had. if ratten had made a prelim he would have been locked away.

 

[lewdogs]

I

you are massively over complicating it:

• melbourne still made a prelim
• richmond still made finals twice!!!

if ratten made finals twice he would have got an extension like dimma had. if ratten had made a prelim he would have been locked away.

No I think you're over simplifying it. Ratten was one game from a prelim, and you suggested he shouldn't be guaranteed a contract even if he makes finals this year (which would be 2/3). The margins between prelims and semis or even finals appearances are small.

If the rest of the season continues as it has the last two weeks then I think he doesn't deserve a contract but if we were to miss finals by percentage with 12 wins then I think it's naive to just label the season a total failure and sack him. It just doesn't work like that.

 

[StCicatriz]

I

No I think you're over simplifying it. Ratten was one game from a prelim, and you suggested he shouldn't be guaranteed a contract even if he makes finals this year (which would be 2/3). The margins between prelims and semis or even finals appearances are small.

If the rest of the season continues as it has the last two weeks then I think he doesn't deserve a contract but if we were to miss finals by percentage with 12 wins then I think it's naive to just label the season a total failure and sack him. It just doesn't work like that.

in a season the president described as a one off where we had shortened qtrs and had adjusted to hubs better!!!!!

in others when we have a normal season, we havent made finals, when we get the once in 140 year type season, we went ok.

it 100% works like that!!!!!

 

[gringo2011]

Again, it’s over complicating things comparing us to Richmond or Melbourne and the situations are nothing like ours.

We are almost making excuses how NOT to be successful when success through hiring Clarko is staring us in the face.

1. Richmond: Clarko wasn’t available. This is the big one. They’d also played final’s footy consistently.

2. Melbourne: Clarko wasn’t available. They were stuck with a lame duck coach like we are and went radical getting in two blokes to assist who were/are good enough to coach in their own right. Then went on to win it straight away with a completely different structure and game plan.

The greatest coach of all time who has done it all (started from nothing, reinvented teams both tactically and list wise to win again and again and again) is available.

We are a team and organisation who are crying out for standards to be set across the board.

Clarkson just happens to be someone not too old that would likely love the challenge of getting a club like ours over the line.

I also have a strong suspicion he’d love to show Jeff Kennett that he has/had plenty of fuel left in the tank.

We will have a motivated Clarko putting us in our rightful place of being THE powerful club in the south of the City. The Hawks and Kennett will be run out of Dingley once Clarko is done with us.

Imagine having a team of coasting lazy shits get a respected drill Sargent in. You would want to extract your fingers very quickly. He’d straighten a few of them up just on reputation. You also get players wanting in. Guys like DeGoey might even want to straighten himself out to get another genuine chance at a flag.

 

[gringo2011]

I

No I think you're over simplifying it. Ratten was one game from a prelim, and you suggested he shouldn't be guaranteed a contract even if he makes finals this year (which would be 2/3). The margins between prelims and semis or even finals appearances are small.

If the rest of the season continues as it has the last two weeks then I think he doesn't deserve a contract but if we were to miss finals by percentage with 12 wins then I think it's naive to just label the season a total failure and sack him. It just doesn't work like that.

He’s definitely got time to start righting the ship but a couple more losses will really throw the cat among the pigeons.

 

[lewdogs]

in a season the president described as a one off where we had shortened qtrs and had adjusted to hubs better!!!!!

in others when we have a normal season, we havent made finals, when we get the once in 140 year type season, we went ok.

it 100% works like that!!!!!

Ok so the season he made finals doesn't count, so two average seasons and he's gone? You're comfortable with that?

 

[gringo2011]

There's the lack of nuance right there. You're basically saying because of Richo we should sack any coach that doesn't make finals two years in a row.

Also it's not the same people there's a very different group of people at the club now.

I was suggesting that the posters that shouted down Richo critics are the same ones still hand wringing.

 

[gringo2011]

Ok so the season he made finals doesn't count, so two average seasons and he's gone? You're comfortable with that?

I think it was an anomalous season. I reckon Richmond won one against the tide because of it too.

 

[lewdogs]

I was suggesting that the posters that shouted down Richo critics are the same ones still hand wringing.

Honestly who cares what posters said at the time? I don't see how that makes any difference.

It's very easy to bang on about how crap the club is all the time, you get to enjoy the wins and then still ride in here on your high horse when we're in a slump (ie now) like you knew how bad we were all along. I'm not sure it's some badge of honour.

 

[gringo2011]

Honestly who cares what posters said at the time? I don't see how that makes any difference.

It's very easy to bang on about how crap the club is all the time, you get to enjoy the wins and then still ride in here on your high horse when we're in a slump (ie now) like you knew how bad we were all along. I'm not sure it's some badge of honour.

As much as being the resident footy club happy-clapper on here is.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Imagine having a team of coasting lazy shits get a respected drill Sargent in. You would want to extract your fingers very quickly. He’d straighten a few of them up just on reputation. You also get players wanting in. Guys like DeGoey might even want to straighten himself out to get another genuine chance at a flag.

Forget Clarko.

We need this bloke

 

[StCicatriz]

Ok so the season he made finals doesn't count, so two average seasons and he's gone? You're comfortable with that?

100% comfortable

lets look at the other option. we dont make finals now, so we re-sign him to 2 years. then he doesnt make finals in 2023 and 2024. we are rightfully going to look like a laughing stock when you add the commentary from everyone to the club over that period as well.

they've said the performance is unacceptable and then they're going to re-sign. it's madness!!!!

 

[AirWinmar]

Ok so the season he made finals doesn't count, so two average seasons and he's gone? You're comfortable with that?

If we didn't make finals this year it would be fairly catastrophic with our list and the trades we have brought in. Hopefully it doesn't come to that. But say we didn't and Ratts got extended for 2 years and isn't able to get the boys up and we miss finals for the next 2, we'd be in some serious strife and needing to bed in a new couch.

The above + what we look like when we're playing and the fact Clarko is available is making this a perfect storm

 

[George]

Do we all understand that clubs don't make decisions on a coaches future at the conclusion of a season?

I keep reiterating it but it seems we're still stuck on us wanting to wait and make a decision once we know if we make finals or not. It doesn't work like that.

 

[lewdogs]

As much as being the resident footy club happy-clapper on here is.

Lol, I criticise the club on things I have a clue about eg performance. You have this insane read on everything from the coaches and their ability to the psyche and personality of the players.

It comes across more like your paranoid fantasy than anything of actual substance, but yes, of course, anyone that tries to understand why we wouldn't sack the coach right now is a happy-clapper.

 

[tomjoad]

Yarp.