Discussion Should we go after Alastair "Brick Bandit" Clarkson?

[StCicatriz]

i didn't know May & June was August....

 

[UnfinishedBusiness]

Thing is, for all we know we sounded out Clarkson 3 months ago and he politely declined. It’s not like the club can come out and say “we tried to get Clarkson but he said no so we are sticking with Ratts”. And, as a friend of Ratten, it’s not like Clarkson would share that news necessarily either!


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[George]

But isn't that exactly what Geelong did at the end of 2006?

You could do it in 2006. There wasn't an AFLCA recommendation backed by the AFL to let out of contract coaches know of a decision early. Clubs had the ability to wait it out, but since 2009 that has changed.

Have a read of my other post after the one you quoted, it's explained there in more detail.

 

[Longmembrey]

SEN running a petition - Would you sign Ratten now ? 100 votes in now, 67% are saying NO.

Petition? Where do I sign...

 

[Sun Ra]

Petition? Where do I sign...

Sounds like it's too late.....two year deal will be announced in a day or two.........sigh...............

 

[Longmembrey]

I've got to say as well, I am bloody worried. The pessimist in me is expecting it to just spiral out of control from here but I've got to view it objectively and at least look at some facts (around the details of his contract). Would be great if there was a world in which we just put him on a PAYG set up. Give him game-to-game or multiple game deals. Sign him to a 5 game contract, if he performs there then extend him for more games. Like combat sport.

Didn't Carlton have coaches (maybe Bolton) on as Staff, instead of a fixed contract? So your contract timeline can be avoided.

Also, Geelong and Chris Scott have an agreement that either party can terminate at any time if either party feel that it is no longer working.

Thirdly, if we really are forced to make a decision on Ratts before August, I would look him dead in the eye and say "we are keeping the position open, but we want you to re-apply". Gets done at the exec level all the time. He needs us more than we need him. If our hand is forced then we keep our options open. He simply hasn't made the job his like a Bevo / Hardwick / Goodwin

 

[The Punter]

Didn't Carlton have coaches (maybe Bolton) on as Staff, instead of a fixed contract? So your contract timeline can be avoided.

Also, Geelong and Chris Scott have an agreement that either party can terminate at any time if either party feel that it is no longer working.

Thirdly, if we really are forced to make a decision on Ratts before August, I would look him dead in the eye and say "we are keeping the position open, but we want you to re-apply". Gets done at the exec level all the time. He needs us more than we need him. If our hand is forced then we keep our options open. He simply hasn't made the job his like a Bevo / Hardwick / Goodwin

Geelong and Carlton aren't on AFL assistance. It relates to the contracts clubs on AFL assistance can enter in to.

To be fair, its probably why Clarko wouldn't come anyway. He could only get a six month payout if sacked.

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

Judging by Lethers comments on radio yesterday it seems we have. I also think it's too late anyway as I think Ratten has already signed. It would be perfect to slot Clarko into a footy GM type of role to ease him back into the thick of things and then if if all goes **** up it's much easier to move him into the head coaching position, and if it goes well then we're laughing. I think that would be a genuine win for us. Obviously dependant on Clarkson and his desire to jump straight back into a senior coaching position or not, but it would be nice. With soft cap spend it'd be difficult because Clarkson would probably demand a lot (not him but his standing) but I would be all for that.

Ratten’s re-signing is all just bad timing really. Currently in poor form but with a deadline looming. We will be taking a punt if we let him go or keep him, risks involved in everything. Does club value 11 weeks of work over 3, do the nature of the wins outweigh the nature of the losses. Are we seeing improvement in the players. Lots to look at. I think within the next 2 weeks he'll get a 2 year deal. They'll announce it when we run into form again. The potential silver lining here is that the recent performances may have bumped a 3 year offer down to 2. Luckily for us he isn't on much which means we've still got money in the soft cap to keep beefing up the football department. Personally I think we've done an enormous job of improving the football department. Rate all the ex Hawthorn guys and Enright has been a revelation for many of the players this year. If Ratts stays on at least we know we have the money there to improve the support around him.

6 months worth of $500k is $250k which isn't so bad imo.

Besides.... not like the Prince Charles donation hasn't happened before

 

[Longmembrey]

Geelong and Carlton aren't on AFL assistance. It relates to the contracts clubs on AFL assistance can enter in to.

To be fair, its probably why Clarko wouldn't come anyway. He could only get a six month payout if sacked.

Lol what? That doesn't address my points at all. Those clubs have a higher level of protection than the 6 month payout clause - so it suits our club (afl assistance) even better. Fact is, it can be done and our hand does not have to be forced by an arbitrary timeline of a mediocre coach's contract.

Its a moot point anyway, sounds like the extension is all but done

 

[NarklesHelmet]

Lol what? That doesn't address my points at all. Those clubs have a higher level of protection than the 6 month payout clause - so it suits our club (afl assistance) even better. Fact is, it can be done and our hand does not have to be forced by an arbitrary timeline of a mediocre coach's contract.

Its a moot point anyway, sounds like the extension is all but done

All the contract talk is obfuscation.

If Bassett is fair dinkum about getting Clarko, Ratts and his contract is, as Hyman Roth would say, “small potatoes”.

6 months payout in the scheme of things?

Who gives a s**t. Look at Hawthorn’s finances and the way they turned around pre-Clarko to post Clarko.

They went from almost merged to a powerhouse.

 

[George]

Didn't Carlton have coaches (maybe Bolton) on as Staff, instead of a fixed contract? So your contract timeline can be avoided.

Also, Geelong and Chris Scott have an agreement that either party can terminate at any time if either party feel that it is no longer working.

Thirdly, if we really are forced to make a decision on Ratts before August, I would look him dead in the eye and say "we are keeping the position open, but we want you to re-apply". Gets done at the exec level all the time. He needs us more than we need him. If our hand is forced then we keep our options open. He simply hasn't made the job his like a Bevo / Hardwick / Goodwin

Well, there's a lot to unpack here and I'll try my best haha. For the record I actually agree with you. One side of me is the Saints supporter who wants to put everyone on rolling 1 year contracts but you've got to also look at it as objectively as you can because some things are just what they are.

I will say that as any head coaching contract there are certain parameters but at the end of the day if both parties agree to it then I don't see a reason it can't be facilitated. Ratts could agree to a rolling 6 month deal or do what Bolton did at the Blues but I think we need to remember these are extreme scenarios and really not the "norm" or the standard when a club works through a contract with a coach and his manager.

Regarding Scott and Geelong, I think that clause is true of all contracts. Before the AFLCA and AFL introduced the 6 month max payout in 2020, poorly run clubs were getting reamed by paying out the entirety of a coaches contract or an amount determined by both parties. Usually it was a lot more than just 6 months worth of salary. So to keep poorly run clubs from siphoning more cash the AFL introduced this clause, which to be honest is horrendous for coaches for obvious reasons but it protects AFL clubs and more broadly the game itself. So if any coach is terminated before their contract expires the payout is only ever 6 months and nothing more.

I would say forced is the wrong word, I'd say that's just the reality of the contract. It's standard across the league that all coaches and assistants need to be told one way or another by August 1 at the latest. Some of them agree with their clubs to tell them earlier (July) but usually the norm is Aug 1. Keeping the position open and reapplying is a good idea I reckon. You've got to probably weigh up the body of work and if the 11 weeks we had prior to the form slump hold more weight than what we've seen lately. We must accept the fact there's going to be risk associated with signing or sacking him. We are in the unfortunate position of not knowing how the rest of 2022 will play out before we need to make a decision. But this happens all the time to all clubs. Risk involved everywhere.

I would disagree with you on your last point mainly for Hardwick and Goodwin. They both were under scrutiny to perform in the years that they were out of contract. Granted they did show that they could get their respective teams to perform but I wouldn't say that either of them made the job theirs. Buckley was similar IIRC. I think Goodwin made the job his own last year really. Coming out of nowhere to win the flag. Hardwick and Buckley similar, made the job theirs in the year after the contract scrutiny IMO. But that's just an opinion.

 

[George]

6 months worth of $500k is $250k which isn't so bad imo.

Besides.... not like the Prince Charles donation hasn't happened before

See I reckon now we're getting somewhere. Now we need to ask ourselves if the first 11 weeks outweigh the last 3. If yes, sign him on. If no, let him go. It's a pretty simple equation to me and honestly I wouldn't make a knee jerk reaction to the last three weeks even though they have been terrible. I am just worried but that's a little bit of the form but also a lot of what I have lived through as a St.Kilda supporter. It took a lot of resolve to endure two rebuilds. I need to see a bit of sustained success (consecutive years of finals football) before I'm able to stomach another go around. Objectively I don't think we are anywhere near that but there's always the little cretin on your shoulder whispering the world is ending in your ear. Hard to shake after 32 years of heartache.

 

[gringo2011]

Look the point I'm trying to make is none of us have a clue if Ratts is the man or not, even those in charge at the club can't be sure. George made the point above, every coach re-signing is a leap of faith on some level.

Supporters will go on about how crap a coach is after losses, supporters of other clubs are no different. Port fans want Hinkley gone, West Coast want Simpson gone, there are probably half a dozen other fan bases that want their coach sacked right now. Many Cats fans were filthy when they re-signed Scott. And of course going back to the last two premiership coaches their fans wanted them gone.

You support a club you take a leap of faith. We'd all like to believe we know what's best for the club but the reality is we just don't, we go along to watch the team play, curse them when they're s**t and rejoice when they're good (we've seen both this year) that's the life of a football supporter when it boils down to it I'm afraid.

There'll be many more coaches and many many more players, at the end of the day we just pray that it clicks and one day we get that elusive flag.

To me there is a lack of system in the way that we play. Early on Ratts seemed to have a very basic plan that we executed well. Butler out the back, quick transition etc. We got worked out and we have never really been able to regroup in a way that looks as convincing.

Last year was a mess, huge blow outs to ordinary sides, players looking lost, lack of team play etc. This season we had a soft start that was a real opportunity to hit the season with confidence.

Apart from the Hawks and Roos we have never looked convincing this year. I hoped that it was keeping themselves for the business end. It turns out that that was all we had and now we are putting up performances like early last year again. I’ve seen enough to have lost most of the faith that Ratts had earned to this point, it’s looking worrying to me.

At least the Dees just looked like they needed a forward line remodel. Most other areas were sorted. We look like there are questions all over the place.

 

[Diehard Saint]

That’s flawed logic. Just because we have sacked coaches and we’re s**t doesn’t mean keeping coaches will turn our fortunes around. Just as keeping Richo for years didn’t do the same thing Richmond or Melbourne did by holding on to coaches. You have to roll the dice sometimes and playing safe has hardly set us up. To me this is fortuitous timing.

And vice versa, just because we’re not performing at the moment (3 games) doesn’t mean changing coaches will turn our fortunes around.

And there’s the rub….nobody has a clue, so much is down to timing and luck.

We’ve been there, done that with the messiah coach.
As I mentioned before, Thompson, Hardwick, Williams, even Clarko
himself were nearly shown the door, the clubs kept faith and the rest, as they say, is history.

Having said that, I have absolutely no idea which way we should go, but I think it’s already done and dusted we should we should probably close this thread in 3….2….1.

 

[Diehard Saint]

sacking coaches aint our issue... its the hiring of them!

now we've just got a new fetish for extending them!

Well, we’ve done the minimum, so let’s hope there are some KPI’s in the contract.

 

[George]

Geelong and Carlton aren't on AFL assistance. It relates to the contracts clubs on AFL assistance can enter in to.

That's a good point, I didn't factor that in. It would be playing a part.

 

[Sully111]

Look at the difference Voss has made at Carlton.

Yes they have a decent list.... but up until now they've been playing well under where they should have been at.

 

[gringo2011]

Yes... we hung on to Richo for far too long. It hurt us as a club.

I'm not interested in all this life as a St Kilda supporter stuff...or curses... or any of that drivel.

Why have Geelong managed to stay relevant since we played them in 2009 while we've gone to sh*t? Because the people in charge have done a better job than the people in charge of our club.

Accountability. It's all about accountability. That's how people and organisations that get sh*t done operate. Our team looks dreadful. The coach is accountable.

"Come on guys let's stay positive" after the rubbish we've served up doesn't cut it.

Someone needs to roll through this club like a steam train.

We lost 3 games up to the bye. Unlucky against Port, Pies jumped us and the Dees made us look reactive early. Back from the bye we have lost to the Lions 10.18 to 8.9 which looks okay on paper but then demolished by the Bombers -again their poor conversion flattered us because we barely put up a fight and then not even in the same league as Sydney a side who on paper should be around our level. They could have kicked straight and buried us by 100 points as well.

There are signs that not just the wheels are falling off but we have some seriously rusted chassis rails and a broken drive shaft. Unless there is a fundamental change soon we could struggle to win another match this year. I don’t know how they are going to regroup but if they can’t Ratts is going to have to be lucky to be coach next year.

 

[gringo2011]

Geelong and Carlton aren't on AFL assistance. It relates to the contracts clubs on AFL assistance can enter in to.

To be fair, its probably why Clarko wouldn't come anyway. He could only get a six month payout if sacked.

His options are getting thin.

 

[70s sainter]

Effort , skill and game plan are what wins games of footy .
Plenty of commentators are saying we don’t have that much skill in the side . There’s not a lot rattan can do about that .
But going hard at the ball has dropped off over the last 2 weeks and we don’t seem to have any type of plan B that covers our arse for a couple of weeks.
That’s the worry for me . Teams have worked us out but we’re unable to adapt our game plan to counter punch .

 

[Sun Ra]

Effort , skill and game plan are what wins games of footy .
Plenty of commentators are saying we don’t have that much skill in the side . There’s not a lot rattan can do about that .
But going hard at the ball has dropped off over the last 2 weeks and we don’t seem to have any type of plan B that covers our arse for a couple of weeks.
That’s the worry for me . Teams have worked us out but we’re unable to adapt our game plan to counter punch .

I thought the counterpunch or Plan B was to move Membery back ?

 

[gringo2011]

And vice versa, just because we’re not performing at the moment (3 games) doesn’t mean changing coaches will turn our fortunes around.

And there’s the rub….nobody has a clue, so much is down to timing and luck.

We’ve been there, done that with the messiah coach.
As I mentioned before, Thompson, Hardwick, Williams, even Clarko
himself were nearly shown the door, the clubs kept faith and the rest, as they say, is history.

Having said that, I have absolutely no idea which way we should go, but I think it’s already done and dusted we should we should probably close this thread in 3….2….1.

We have last year, even the wins this year and now a huge collapse in form. To me if we were a racehorse we’d be ready for the knackery. This isn’t a side at the bottom of a rebuild. This is the core with a few tweaks. It won’t be long before we need to rebuild again. We can’t afford the wait and hope.

 

[gringo2011]

Effort , skill and game plan are what wins games of footy .
Plenty of commentators are saying we don’t have that much skill in the side . There’s not a lot rattan can do about that .
But going hard at the ball has dropped off over the last 2 weeks and we don’t seem to have any type of plan B that covers our arse for a couple of weeks.
That’s the worry for me . Teams have worked us out but we’re unable to adapt our game plan to counter punch .

Plenty of sides have workrate that makes up for skill deficiencies. We have neither. We don’t have a brand or an obvious game plan. Both absolute fundamental pieces of a good side. Even Richo had his brand and obvious game plan no matter how s**t it was.

 

[Mowman]

SEN running a petition - Would you sign Ratten now ? 100 votes in now, 67% are saying NO.

That’s pretty F:;KIng rank by SEN DISGUSTING

They will run adds and segments on mental health but do that to Ratts

 

[Sun Ra]

That’s pretty F:;KIng rank by SEN DISGUSTING

They will run adds and segments on mental health but do that to Ratts

Calm down, it was only Kane Cornes.