Should we play 4 quicks and no spinner in 3rd Test against India?

Should we go into the 3rd test match with 4 quicks and no spinner?

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  • Yes

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mattymac

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#51
can't see it happening tbh. both clarke and arthur are firmly on the record saying they don't like the idea of going in without a spinner. plus we have a recent history of kacking it up when we've gone for 4 quicks. i think harris will play in perth but as a rotation for one of the other quicks. should definitely play in adelaide for obvious reasons
 

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gbatman

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#52
No, this never works for us. Lyon has had one innefective game, which was against the Indians on a wicket unfriendly to spin. Big deal! The SCG will turn after the first day or so at least. The 4 quicks thing has never worked for us. Harris is a great bowler but will always be injured on and off and we should cut our losses.

There are 2 innings in test cricket, we have to get them out twice, don't select a team for the first day or two, it's dumb.

We don't have a spin all rounder in the team that is decent but we have an alright medium pace all rounder in Hussey so this is not on.

Lyon must play, it's a no brainer.
 
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#53
the pitch will be quick and bouncy, there will be generous amounts of grass in it as well im thinking. not tipped to go below 30 deg for the next week or so. the curator will have to keep in shape with plenty of water and grass.

last years WACA track was fast and it showed, steepling bounce and not the tennis ball style bounce the MCG was getting.

4 quicks is the way to go, despite recent memories (4 years ago and the sth africa test some time ago) the WACA test track has got a lot of pace and bounce back.

though lyon should be able to cash in on the sea breeze in the afternoon but since the test is being played after xmas, its not uncommon for the sea breeze to stay away until very late and not have much force behind it.

even if lyon was dropped for the test, i dont think it would affect his mind set that much, he looks very vacant upstairs, someone might have to knock on his head for a while to tell him.
 

roostersgal4eva

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#54
No, this never works for us. Lyon has had one innefective game, which was against the Indians on a wicket unfriendly to spin. Big deal! The SCG will turn after the first day or so at least. The 4 quicks thing has never worked for us. Harris is a great bowler but will always be injured on and off and we should cut our losses.

There are 2 innings in test cricket, we have to get them out twice, don't select a team for the first day or two, it's dumb.

We don't have a spin all rounder in the team that is decent but we have an alright medium pace all rounder in Hussey so this is not on.

Lyon must play, it's a no brainer.
Exactly

It would of been easy to believe the hype and not stick with him even if he does get carted - I'm still standing firm that he didn't do a bad job last test - because finally they have decided on a spinner and are sticking with him not doing this spinning rotation BB they been on for the last 2 years...

Regardless of what happens this test, he will benefit from the experience long term.
 

frankrizzo

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#55
Hopefully lyon stays now for all 4 tests, he's not going to be the decisive factor against india(what spinner is?) but i don't think that means he should be dumped, warne was a complete flop against india over many test series but even on green decks he still played.

With regards to the waca having plenty of pace and bounce, if it has that much 3 quicks should get the job done anyway and if it's quick and bouncy that should offer help to a spinner like lyon who is willing to flight the ball.
 

aussierulesrules

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#57
Pace has ripped through India once again, they will be hoping and praying we pick Lyon in Perth, on that wicket, I expect.
As for those that say "playing 4 quicks never works for us", again I say, how did it work for us the last time we did it, at the WACA, 12 months ago? In the games before and after that match, we LOST by an INNINGS, but in that game we thrashed them with our "quicks" kicking ass. It did and can work for us, especially since we have 4 good pace options right now and are playing a team that are getting ripped apart by pace. I know I'm making far too much sense here, but that's too bad.
 

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#58
Definitely NO.

Finger spinners have a much better record on the WACA than wrist spinners as they appreciate the extra bounce. I think it would be foolish not to pick Lyon as we need to encourage him and make sure he continues to develop, he is the first spinner we've had for years who has actually continued to look good for more than one or two test matches.

Also still don't trust Harris to stand up to bowling 40-50 overs in a match.
 

Total_Juddshanks

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#61
5 quicks. harris and Watto to come back in.
Disagree, 6 quicks... Peel Pat Cummins off his wheelchair, drop Marsh, Lyon, Warner- Cowan and Watson to open, then Clarke, Ponting, Hussey, Haddin, Siddle, Patto, H'Haus, Harris, Cummins. If any of the remaining batsmen show signs of a form slump, replace them with the highest ranked domestic quick. :D

It's actually quite a tough call. Just in terms of getting 10 indian wickets for not many runs, i think it's clear that 4 quicks would be better than the current configuration- both the tail and the Indian top order are completely at sea against bounce and swing, but you can't bowl 3 quicks perpetually, and you can see India noticeably relax and start to score runs every time Lyon comes on. If we had Harris for this test, we would have knocked over India for about 150.

However, its not just about this series. As has been said, we've gone through crazy numbers of potential spinners, if Lyon is the best option (and he has bowled well in patches in previous series) then stick with him, and get him some experience bowling to a side which includes some of the best players of spin in the world. We will need a decent spinner when we go touring or for the next Ashes, so we had best get some Tests into him now. For the first time, we actually have the luxury of a really scary looking pace attack, which means we can afford to carry Lyon in the test team as a development prospect.

Only possible situation which might lead to a rethink would be if India managed to pull off a win in this current test- then all bets are off and we need to select the side which is most capable of winning in Perth- so in Harris, out Lyon.
 

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PykeDream

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#62
It's actually quite a tough call. Just in terms of getting 10 indian wickets for not many runs, I think it's clear that 4 quicks would be better than the current configuration - both the tail and the Indian top order are completely at sea against bounce and swing, but you can't bowl 3 quicks perpetually, and you can see India noticeably relax and start to score runs every time Lyon comes on. If we had Harris for this test, we would have knocked over India for about 150.

However, its not just about this series. As has been said, we've gone through crazy numbers of potential spinners, if Lyon is the best option (and he has bowled well in patches in previous series) then stick with him, and get him some experience bowling to a side which includes some of the best players of spin in the world. We will need a decent spinner when we go touring or for the next Ashes, so we had best get some Tests into him now. For the first time, we actually have the luxury of a really scary looking pace attack, which means we can afford to carry Lyon in the test team as a development prospect.

Only possible situation which might lead to a rethink would be if India managed to pull off a win in this current test - then all bets are off and we need to select the side which is most capable of winning in Perth - so in Harris, out Lyon.
Agree with this. It isn't a problem having Lyon in the team, he is hardly a liability, and this series will likely have a substantial effect on his development. however, if we lose this match, or we feel as though the next is going to be marginal and Harris will be a much better option, then by all means go into the next test with four quicks so we can take every chance at winning we have.

For what's it worth, I'm still not convinced Harris is durable enough to play many test. Maybe rotations would be ideal (as well as for Cummins, Pattinson, possibly Hazelwood and our other bowlers to a lesser extent).
 

DaRick

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#64
What makes me reluctant to recommend the four quicks is the thorny 'over rates' issue, which probably went a long way to costing us the 2008 Perth Test (bowling Clarke/Symonds longer than was desirable because Tait struggled to land it).

I can obviously see a case for it (Lyon not causing the Indian batsmen any real problems plus the WACA's traditional hostility to spinners) but I'm still uncertain.
 

aussierulesrules

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#65
5 quicks. harris and Watto to come back in.
We've got to give India some chance!

Seriously though, Harris looked to get through another game OK tonight (his 5th competitive game back now), bowled lots of good balls and motored around in the outfield like a bull on the charge. (For those with short memories, or who aren't aware of it, Harris took 15 wickets in his last 5 test innings for Australia, at 16.9, against Sri Lanka, in Sri Lanka and Sth Africa, in Sth Africa- a similar average to Patto's recent test average. That's how well he was going.).

If he's fit enough, then we'd be nuts to not pick him in Perth (where he took 9 wickets last year, at 11.8), IMO and then hopefully we'll have the series wrapped up after that game and Lyon can come back in for Adelaide (to help with this development so many are worried about, etc).

If we happen to be up 3-0 by then, it will also give us the chance to give Patto the rest he probably needs and maybe Siddle, too (Starc, or maybe better still Hazlewood, could come in for that final match, along with Lyon, if we have the series wrapped up by then and want to rest Patto and Siddle).

On the other hand, they may want to rest either Patto, or Siddle, for the Perth game (as they've both played 4 in a row), with the other one rested for the Adelaide game, meaning Lyon would play both, relieving the stress for all those who seem to think the world will end if he ever misses a game. :thumbsu:
 

Blue and Gold Blood

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Thread starter #66
Well all the points I made in the OP still stand, and Michael Clark has now got as many wickets as Lyon after 4 innings.

Has to be a 4th quick in Perth at the WACA.
 

aussierulesrules

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#67
They were saying on ABC radio yesterday that Clarke seemed to have little confidence in Lyon and that was apparent again earlier today.
They also said in the Herald Sun yesterday that we'll be going with 4 "quicks" in Perth, after Harris was brought immediately back to Sydney after his T20 match the night before and that he has been withdrawn from Brisbane's next Big Bash match, to prepare for Perth. (I'm not sure if they were just making the "4 quicks" assumption, or if they had it as "mail", but they stated it as fact)
The only problem with all that now may be that they may want to rest Patto, after all this bowling (and him looking tired), so that may save Nathan, unless they bring in both Starc and Harris for Perth (which they were also contemplating on radio yesterday).
It's been all well and good to leave Nathan in for his "development", but enough is enough, it's putting too much of a load on the "quicks". This match would probably be over by now if Harris was playing (India 7 down in the 2nd innings at the time I wrote this) and the likes of Patto could be putting their feet up.
If Clarkey's back is OK, he can bowl some spin, if we're desperately needing it. We won with 4 "quicks" in Perth last year and two of them were Siddle and Hilfy, who at the time were struggling big-time for wickets, so we could go even better this time around.
 
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Moderator #68
I originally voted 'no' to the OP, but I sense that the decision to retain N. Lyon is now finely balanced, at best (from Lyon's perspective).

IMO, it will depend on (a) whether Harris is fit to play in Perth, (b) whether the Aussies will look to give Patto a rest (highly doubtful, but he did show some signs of tiredness towards the end of the Sydney test) and (c) whether Mickey Arthur thinks he can coax 15-20 overs of part-time bowling out of Clarke/Hussey/Warner.

I'm leaning towards "yes, Australia should play four quicks" and rely on a part-timer to make up overs.
 

maelcoluim

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#69
It depends on the state of the pitch at the WACA but Lyon has been ineffective in Melbourne and Sydney, and I don't rate him as a long-term spinning option. The 3 incumbents plus Harris should suffice with a few overs from the part-timers. Would be a lot easier to risk playing Lyon if Watson was fully fit.
 

eddiesmith

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#70
Depends if they have 4 quicks, I think Patto needs a rest and toiling away on a WACA road is not the best for him after this test, keeps him nice and fresh for Adelaide
 

aussierulesrules

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#71
I think they did a good job of protecting Patto late in the match and it was quite apparent that they didn't want either he or Siddle bowling, presumably to give them a break, mostly. Hilfy and Lyon bowled over after over (with Hilf getting just a two over break between spells, when Clarke came on) and thankfully they got the job done, so that the other two didn't have to do any more bowling. I'm sure they'll monitor Patto very closely, as the last thing they'll want is to burn him out. If he plays in Perth and we win then they'll surely rest him in Adelaide.
 

aussierulesrules

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#73
Watson will not be ready to do any significant bowling, if at all, so he would only come in for his batting. When you consider he's only averaged something like 25 for the past 12 months, and hasn't played a game of any kind in ages, bringing him in for his batting would be a risk, unless he replaced Marsh, who has made no runs in his 3 innings back (it could also be the beginning of Watto's move down the order.)
At least Harris has played 5 games back and had recent good form (15 wickets at 16.9 in his last 5 test innings). Watson doesn't have either of those things going for him, so there's no great need to rush him back, especially if he's not bowling. Maybe give Marsh one more chance (on his home pitch), before making the call on who Watson will replace.
 

roostersgal4eva

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#74
It's been all well and good to leave Nathan in for his "development", but enough is enough, it's putting too much of a load on the "quicks". This match would probably be over by now if Harris was playing (India 7 down in the 2nd innings at the time I wrote this) and the likes of Patto could be putting their feet up.
If Clarkey's back is OK, he can bowl some spin, if we're desperately needing it. We won with 4 "quicks" in Perth last year and two of them were Siddle and Hilfy, who at the time were struggling big-time for wickets, so we could go even better this time around.
Where are you going to draw the line then...we may as well never have another spinner again with your attitude

since our part timers and our fast bowlers are going so well this is the perfect time to 'carry' Lyon...that's if you want to look long term.

Give Patterson a rest, allow Lyon to ***** develop and both bowlers & the future of Aust cricket will be better for it

How hard is that to ***** grasp
 

Jimthegreat

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#75
Harris in for Lyon, or Watson in for ???

I'd want 4 pacemen in Perth, to ease the workload and be a more effective 4th option than Lyon.

IF Watson comes in it'd certainly be for Marsh I'd say.

4 quicks is a near-cert. Warne never got his best results there so no point playing Lyon, especially if the track is like last year. With the way pitches are prepared this season it's almost certain to be greenish with bounce. 4 quicks and go for the jugular.

If we're 3-0, or 2-0, up then rest Pattinson in the last Test. Don't want him pounding away on a flat Adelaide track yet if we don't have to.
 
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