Should we stop celebrating Capt James Cook?

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madmug said:
The rewrite that he didn't actually 'discover' Australia? The fact that it wasn't terra nullius with Aboriginals being here for maybe 50k years before he turned up? Also that other Europeans (Hartog, Tasman etc,) as well as other Asians had been here earlier.

Don't conflate that with some 'hate the whitey' BS. Its about facts. Not just the history of the power of one nationality.

26th January represents British Colonisation. Australia really became a nation on 1st January 1901. Thats the real Australia day, when it ceased to be just a collection of British colonies. The actual date for a BBQ & piss up to celebrate our actual nationhood can be any date really. Any except 26th January that is.
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Yes, Cook didn't discover "Australia." He discovered NSW and the Eastern Coast of Australia for Europeans. No one had been to that part of the world bar the original inhabitant's for thousands of years . The east coast is the part in the world where most Australians have lived since the 1800's. This was the start of a tide of change on this land which it hadn't seen and can never reverse. Something came out this expedition, unlike past Asian/European expeditions of Tasman or the hundreds of Dutch sailors who went a bit too far east on their trip to Indonesia. Without Cooks voyage and more importantly, Joesph Banks, Australia and the first fleet would have a different founding. It is why Cook is important to Australian history. It is why Cook is remembered in Hawaii/NZ(first contact there) as well. First contact and an unchangeable, redefining event.

I have mentioned this before but Australian history existed before 1901. Australian history didnt take a break over 1788-1901. There is a lot of stuff between those years, some good, some bad and an awful lot of grey. Federation is just that- a Federation of the states into a single Commonwealth- Australia. Australians didn't just suddenly turn up. Australians were the ones who voted for Federation after all. Sure, their "passport" might have said British, Tasmanian or Victorian, but that Australian identity was always around in the background. Is Ned Kelly an Australian, a Brit/Irish, or Victorian?

Australia didn't just suddenly stop being a British colony after 1901 vote. Same would say we still are, some would say 1984 or 1942, others 1915 or 1901. I think we don't have a "date" of independence because it is some damn hard to find one when it occurred over naturally over hundreds of years. It is why it is hard to find an alternative to Australia Day. Personally, I want to barf whenever I hear someone suggest that May 8(as in Mate) as a new Australia day. How cringy.
 
BobbyMorri said:
Yes, Cook didn't discover "Australia." He discovered NSW and the Eastern Coast of Australia for Europeans. No one had been to that part of the world bar the original inhabitant's for thousands of years . The east coast is the part in the world where most Australians have lived since the 1800's. This was the start of a tide of change on this land which it hadn't seen and can never reverse. Something came out this expedition, unlike past Asian/European expeditions of Tasman or the hundreds of Dutch sailors who went a bit too far east on their trip to Indonesia. Without Cooks voyage and more importantly, Joesph Banks, Australia and the first fleet would have a different founding. It is why Cook is important to Australian history. It is why Cook is remembered in Hawaii/NZ(first contact there) as well. First contact and an unchangeable, redefining event.

I have mentioned this before but Australian history existed before 1901. Australian history didnt take a break over 1788-1901. There is a lot of stuff between those years, some good, some bad and an awful lot of grey. Federation is just that- a Federation of the states into a single Commonwealth- Australia. Australians didn't just suddenly turn up. Australians were the ones who voted for Federation after all. Sure, their "passport" might have said British, Tasmanian or Victorian, but that Australian identity was always around in the background. Is Ned Kelly an Australian, a Brit/Irish, or Victorian?

Australia didn't just suddenly stop being a British colony after 1901 vote. Same would say we still are, some would say 1984 or 1942, others 1915 or 1901. I think we don't have a "date" of independence because it is some damn hard to find one when it occurred over naturally over hundreds of years. It is why it is hard to find an alternative to Australia Day. Personally, I want to barf whenever I hear someone suggest that May 8(as in Mate) as a new Australia day. How cringy.
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May 8, very clever. :)

If you have to pick a date it really should be the creation of a nation, not just one landing on a beach in Botany bay.
 

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Gough said:
The British Empire committed wholesale genocide for a hundred years, it was what it was, and was a product of a time, but they should certainly stop pointing the fingers at Germans who have acknowledged the gross violations of human decency committed in the name of their forefathers in a way that we as a product of that genocide ever have.
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What an absolutely load of cobblers.

As for wholesale genocide, what other sort is there?

We as a product of genocide???? FFS.
 
Maggie5 said:
But not uninhabited land!


Sad but true.
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No the land was not uninhabited of course, but to the ideas of people at that time inhabited meant established villages and towns and farming , farming started the beginnings of humans staying in one place.
The indigenous people were hunter gatherers and had come here over thousands of years and this is a bloody big continent , so they were far spread out, by the time Cook ever saw one , can you imagine your own thoughts in those times.
Do you remember when the first white man saw a Gorrilla , they thought it was some kind of human being, their education did not allow for them to think like the people of today who want to condemn a Sailor, who actually did land on an area of the east coast of this continent, no excuse of course for the later handling of the first people, but lots and lots of people try to improve the situation all the time.
Why doesn't it work for everyone of them, not just some, even the stolen generation was acutely wrong and has caused hatred, but even the misled fools that began that did it I suppose to move children away from what the white authorities perceived as a way to bring them into a new world.
This is not excuse making for the bastards that enjoyed what they did to Aboriginal people, there always was and always will be mongrels in this world who enjoy others misery, but the majority were trying to work out a way to have these first people fit in, because Australia, once the invasion came , was never going to go back to what it was. Must have been harrowing to see white sails , soldiers and a pack of convict crims.
Only answer was join in. Some perhaps just can't. But thats been history of people from before we can remember.
 
JoondalupJ said:
No the land was not uninhabited of course, but to the ideas of people at that time inhabited meant established villages and towns and farming , farming started the beginnings of humans staying in one place.
The indigenous people were hunter gatherers and had come here over thousands of years and this is a bloody big continent , so they were far spread out, by the time Cook ever saw one , can you imagine your own thoughts in those times.
Do you remember when the first white man saw a Gorrilla , they thought it was some kind of human being, their education did not allow for them to think like the people of today who want to condemn a Sailor, who actually did land on an area of the east coast of this continent, no excuse of course for the later handling of the first people, but lots and lots of people try to improve the situation all the time.
Why doesn't it work for everyone of them, not just some, even the stolen generation was acutely wrong and has caused hatred, but even the misled fools that began that did it I suppose to move children away from what the white authorities perceived as a way to bring them into a new world.
This is not excuse making for the bastards that enjoyed what they did to Aboriginal people, there always was and always will be mongrels in this world who enjoy others misery, but the majority were trying to work out a way to have these first people fit in, because Australia, once the invasion came , was never going to go back to what it was. Must have been harrowing to see white sails , soldiers and a pack of convict crims.
Only answer was join in. Some perhaps just can't. But thats been history of people from before we can remember.
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You post assumes and excuses too much.
 
Maggie5 said:
You post assumes and excuses too much.
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No it doesn't , it just says what was and is.
But its NOW , as of now, why not stop bringing up old battles and try and fix it up.

By using a tactic called everyone tries?

Instead of chips on the shoulder , everyone, should , do!!!!!! something!!!!! Like Kanga Kennedy said.

We get an outcome. Still we're all effing human so how can we.....right???
 
Maggie5 said:
Thanks!
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Also a question on your TRUMP , village IDIOT , commentary signature.
The kick the Trump joke is getting old.
But I'd like to know how you reckon the world has been getting on since George senior
and Bill Clinton, George Dubbya, Barrack Obama, all of them but one (George Bush senior 4 years) are 8 year two term Presidents.
Trump has had 6 months .
I think the bashing, jealousy , FoxNews like, trampling on him, and his family is in the end going to help him more, because its getting ridiculous the hatred and vitriol, by Dems, by media and by celebrity and the opposite side is quite vile makes them look terrible, a bit like your line .
Trump can appear as bit of a knob , yes , doesn't make him some evil dictator.
So seeing as you have a brightly coloured comment under your posts, can you actually describe the wrong doings and detail of why you , would , describe him as the village idiot. What do you know he's done besides winning an election. Hope you have an answer for making comments because he's not even in our country.
I find the Trump bashing nonsense , because he has been barely given a chance to be President, he tried to make friends with the Russians, instead of fight them, he mouths off ,back to an idiot in North Korea , I suspect to give Kim Jong Un a bit of his own back hah.
So I'm really curious as to why you dislike this President? Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees and follow like sheep!
 
JoondalupJ said:
Also a question on your TRUMP , village IDIOT , commentary signature.
The kick the Trump joke is getting old.
But I'd like to know how you reckon the world has been getting on since George senior
and Bill Clinton, George Dubbya, Barrack Obama, all of them but one (George Bush senior 4 years) are 8 year two term Presidents.
Trump has had 6 months .
I think the bashing, jealousy , FoxNews like, trampling on him, and his family is in the end going to help him more, because its getting ridiculous the hatred and vitriol, by Dems, by media and by celebrity and the opposite side is quite vile makes them look terrible, a bit like your line .
Trump can appear as bit of a knob , yes , doesn't make him some evil dictator.
So seeing as you have a brightly coloured comment under your posts, can you actually describe the wrong doings and detail of why you , would , describe him as the village idiot. What do you know he's done besides winning an election. Hope you have an answer for making comments because he's not even in our country.
I find the Trump bashing nonsense , because he has been barely given a chance to be President, he tried to make friends with the Russians, instead of fight them, he mouths off ,back to an idiot in North Korea , I suspect to give Kim Jong Un a bit of his own back hah.
So I'm really curious as to why you dislike this President? Sometimes people can't see the forest for the trees and follow like sheep!
Click to expand...
Good for you but wrong thread!
 

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JoondalupJ said:
No it doesn't , it just says what was and is.
But its NOW , as of now, why not stop bringing up old battles and try and fix it up.

By using a tactic called everyone tries?

Instead of chips on the shoulder , everyone, should , do!!!!!! something!!!!! Like Kanga Kennedy said.

We get an outcome. Still we're all effing human so how can we.....right???
Click to expand...
It's much easier to say 'let's move on' when you don't bear the scars of the past. What seems to you like a pointless old battle is actually part of the journey that has led to indigenous people living in third world conditions.
 
JackOutback said:
It's much easier to say 'let's move on' when you don't bear the scars of the past. What seems to you like a pointless old battle is actually part of the journey that has led to indigenous people living in third world conditions.[/QUOTE

But we have to move on. Because the situation won't change or get better if we keep arguing about everything that's happened.
If we have people hurt and carrying a chip on their shoulders I am not sure how they can be changed by others , only them selves can do that. What happened happened .

Don't you think Australians know that these days, and know it was wrong.

But IT HAPPENED, its finished as far as happening , but as you say people still live in third world conditions , and some people carry scars , so whats the answer.

Saying the logical thing about the History of a down trodden people is simply making a statement about what every one knows these days it happened.

Got to get passed that ,and sometimes people also have to help themselves as well as be helped.

This may sound a bit petty for an analogy but its pure.
If you break your little finger when your 20 years old and it heals 20 years later , if you are still complaining about it when your ninety , then you still have a broken finger!

What about a few ideas, and some co operation, and I don't mean bulldust white fella trips to the bush by bloody Ray Bullshit Martin either, patronising rubbish that was.

This problem belongs to all of us Australians, I mean both ends black or white . Statue vandalising means stuff all!!!
Click to expand...
 
madmug said:
May 8, very clever. :)

If you have to pick a date it really should be the creation of a nation, not just one landing on a beach in Botany bay.
Click to expand...

May 8 sounds like a sketch off the paul hogan show
 
JoondalupJ said:
Why doesn't it work for everyone of them, not just some, even the stolen generation was acutely wrong and has caused hatred, but even the misled fools that began that did it I suppose to move children away from what the white authorities perceived as a way to bring them into a new world.
This is not excuse making for the bastards that enjoyed what they did to Aboriginal people, there always was and always will be mongrels in this world who enjoy others misery, but the majority were trying to work out a way to have these first people fit in, because Australia, once the invasion came , was never going to go back to what it was. Must have been harrowing to see white sails , soldiers and a pack of convict crims.
Only answer was join in. Some perhaps just can't. But thats been history of people from before we can remember.
Click to expand...

The Stolen Generation wasn't about trying to fit Indigenous people into the modern Australian life, it was about trying to wipe them out.

From Kevin Rudd's apology transcript:

"One of the most notorious examples of this approach was from the Northern Territory Protector of Natives, who stated: "Generally by the fifth and invariably by the sixth generation, all native characteristics of the Australian aborigine are eradicated.

"The problem of our half-castes— to quote the protector— will quickly be eliminated by the complete disappearance of the black race, and the swift submergence of their progeny in the white ... "

The Western Australian Protector of Natives expressed not dissimilar views, expounding them at length in Canberra in 1937 at the first national conference on Indigenous affairs that brought together the Commonwealth and state protectors of natives.

These are uncomfortable things to be brought out into the light. They are not pleasant. They are profoundly disturbing. But we must acknowledge these facts if we are to deal once and for all with the argument that the policy of generic forced separation was somehow well motivated, justified by its historical context and, as a result, unworthy of any apology today."
 
Coolangatta said:
The Stolen Generation wasn't about trying to fit Indigenous people into the modern Australian life, it was about trying to wipe them out.

From Kevin Rudd's apology transcript:

"One of the most notorious examples of this approach was from the Northern Territory Protector of Natives, who stated: "Generally by the fifth and invariably by the sixth generation, all native characteristics of the Australian aborigine are eradicated.

"The problem of our half-castes— to quote the protector— will quickly be eliminated by the complete disappearance of the black race, and the swift submergence of their progeny in the white ... "

The Western Australian Protector of Natives expressed not dissimilar views, expounding them at length in Canberra in 1937 at the first national conference on Indigenous affairs that brought together the Commonwealth and state protectors of natives.

These are uncomfortable things to be brought out into the light. They are not pleasant. They are profoundly disturbing. But we must acknowledge these facts if we are to deal once and for all with the argument that the policy of generic forced separation was somehow well motivated, justified by its historical context and, as a result, unworthy of any apology today."
Click to expand...

Well we know what you just said already and most of us care. As in all humans some don't give a stuff. On both sides.
So what do you think is needed?
And that population though treated abominably, is still here not totally destroyed, what ever the motives were , it changes nothing, fighting over it now makes things worse. Wrecking statues is stupid thats history, as was the white invasion of Australia. It can;t be changed so what is NEEDED??
I take it no apology for you is worth anything, well good luck in reconciliation.

I am no student of Aboriginal history , but I know the things that were done, and I totally disagree that every body who took kids from Aboriginal families was doing it for genocide , what ever some trumped up Protectors of Natives were saying 100 to 200 years ago or even later.
Nothing is ever settled with vengeance and hatred and anger, we have a near world war awaiting us because there is a nut case in North Korea , and a aggro President in the USA , SO MAYBE THEY SHOULD TALK INSTEAD OF THREATEN THE WORLD.
Any way if they do go and fight the Aboriginal situation in this country will pale into insignificance, it shouldn't , but we'll all be pretty well dead?
As this debate seems to be getting.
 
JoondalupJ said:
So what do you think is needed?

Any way if they do go and fight the Aboriginal situation in this country will pale into insignificance, it shouldn't , but we'll all be pretty well dead?
As this debate seems to be getting.
Click to expand...

I posted in another thread about this. Many things are needed, but currently I would (if I could) be undertaking a systematic review of organisations dedicated to closing the gap. Rorting is widespread and the people responsible for this need to be held accountable and sacked, replaced by new people who will hopefully do the right thing and not rip money away from Indigenous communities and put it into their own pockets. So my answer isn't more money, I don't live in a fantasy land where money grows on trees and you can just increase funding for everything without increasing taxes. My answer is more efficient spending.

As for your other point, I don't believe that war between the USA and North Korea (hopefully it doesn't come to that) would result in the death of us all.
 
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