Similarities to the early Taylor years?

DaRick

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Having watched this side over the last few Tests, I've begun to wonder about the similarities between this side and Mark Taylor's side circa 1994/95 (i.e - his captaincy induction). Of course, there are some important differences: there is no Shane Warne in our current side, our current wicketkeeper is nowhere near the brilliant Healy and our fielding, whilst much improved, is not quite at that standard yet.

However, there are quite a few similarities:
- A tactically astute captain (Clarke vs Taylor) replacing a more combative, standard-setting but less tactically sound captain (Ponting vs Border)
- A mixed pace bowling attack comprising an aged but powerful stalwart (Harris vs McDermott) talented youngsters (Pattinson, Starc and Cummins vs McGrath and Fleming), former journeymen who took their game to a new level (Hilfenhaus and Siddle vs Reiffel), useful fringe bowlers (Copeland vs Angel) and finished former stalwarts (Johnson vs Hughes)
- Useful wicketkeepers waiting in the wings, with the difference being that our incumbent arguably doesn't deserve his place over them (Wade/Paine/Nevill/Hartley vs Emery/Berry/Seccombe)
- A decent but brittle batting line-up prone to collapses with some old stalwarts (Ponting vs Boon), some established players (Clarke vs the Waugh's) and a useful tail (Siddle/Hilfenhaus/Pattinson vs McDermott/Fleming/Reiffel)

I must add that, whilst he is no Shane Warne, Lyon is reasonably talented. Unlike most of the 11 spinners we've tried since Warne's retirement (excluding a by-then finished MacGill), he's not afraid to flight the ball and he's done reasonably well when conditions have suited (Sri Lanka) and sometimes even when they haven't (New Zealand). He's still not the finished article; Ashley Mallet believes he doesn't use the crease effectively enough, whilst he's yet to turn the ball like a Jason Krejza, but he's exhibited more control than anybody bar Nathan Hauritz (who bowls flatter).

I'm not saying that this team is as good as that Taylor side of 1994/95 (it's not quite there), but there are a number of similarities. This is occasionally disquieting (regarding the batting line-up's consistency), but more often encouraging (the pace attack, the captain and the keeping reserves). Although things can change drastically from here (with injuries, personal problems, stupid selections etc.), these similarities make me believe that at least we're on the right track for the time being.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?
 

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dan warna

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#2
Taylor was handed a built team by border. and In my opinion taylor let standards slide. Steve Waugh turned a strong team into steel.

Under taylor our fielding slipped, fitness dropped off as did discipline.

He was an adequate captain with an adequate batting line up and a great attack.

won many series, but lost 'dead rubbers'

IMO steve waugh SHOULD be remembered as the best of recent captains.
 

Jimthegreat

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#3
Taylor was handed a built team by border. and In my opinion taylor let standards slide. Steve Waugh turned a strong team into steel.

Under taylor our fielding slipped, fitness dropped off as did discipline.

He was an adequate captain with an adequate batting line up and a great attack.

won many series, but lost 'dead rubbers'

IMO steve waugh SHOULD be remembered as the best of recent captains.
Taylor was the best captain we had since Ian Chappell. Let's not make any mistake about that. Tactical nous was brilliant. Fielding, bowling and batting standards improved until we became a super side, which Waugh took over in it's prime.


Waugh was a great leader by example and certainly had a very committed unit but an extremely rigid one dimensional captain. Never thought he was a great tactical captain. Had a super side but the few Tests we lost in the time were often down to his captaincy. Ponting got the same results with the same side then got found out when the big guns retired.
 
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#4
Taylor was the best captain we had since Ian Chappell. Let's not make any mistake about that. Tactical nous was brilliant. Fielding, bowling and batting standards improved until we became a super side, which Waugh took over in it's prime.


Waugh was a great leader by example and certainly had a very committed unit but an extremely rigid one dimensional captain. Never thought he was a great tactical captain. Had a super side but the few Tests we lost in the time were often down to his captaincy. Ponting got the same results with the same side then got found out when the big guns retired.
Absolutely correct.:thumbsu::thumbsu::thumbsu::thumbsu:
 
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#5
Agree with the last couple of posts. Although I think Waugh was perfect for the sort of side we had. He took a very good side and made them ruthless.
 

MisterMarcus

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#6
One difference, in the early Taylor era you had a bunch of blokes like Langer, Lehmann, Hayden and Martyn absolutely smashing the door down in domestic cricket. When the likes of Boon and Border retired, other guys were ready to just slip in.

At the moment, do we really have that?
 

laminex

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#7
Taylor was handed a built team by border. and In my opinion taylor let standards slide. Steve Waugh turned a strong team into steel.

Under taylor our fielding slipped, fitness dropped off as did discipline.

He was an adequate captain with an adequate batting line up and a great attack.

won many series, but lost 'dead rubbers'

IMO steve waugh SHOULD be remembered as the best of recent captains.
Border built a team to draw every match it could and hope to win some along the way. Taylor said I would rather lose than play for a draw and he made us win, he made us back our self and go for the win. Taylor was the start of the greatest cricket side ever. Ponting and CA made sure it ended with a rather typical blue blood approach that keeps cricket small.
 

laminex

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#8
Agree with the last couple of posts. Although I think Waugh was perfect for the sort of side we had. He took a very good side and made them ruthless.
Yes he did, he did it because all the ground work had been done by Taylor and of course the leader's in that group. He was a great captain and a fearless leader. I only wish Ponting had half the balls Waugh had.
 

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#9
Yes he did, he did it because all the ground work had been done by Taylor and of course the leader's in that group. He was a great captain and a fearless leader. I only wish Ponting had half the balls Waugh had.
I've always thought Waugh was a lead by example, he inherited an unbelievable side which really didn't need a strong captain and was full of players who were ruthless. The likes of Warne, McGrath, Gilchrist, Hayden all loved to smash opposition sides in submittion. This wasn't taught by Waugh and is not the sort of thing that can be taught by anyone.

Taylor was a great captain who changed the way we played cricket. He instilled more discipline into the side than ever existed under Border. Made it mandatory to wear the baggy green for the first session in the field for each test. The players trusted Taylor to make the right calls and were happy to play under him.

Admittedly in fairness to Border his captaincy was bred out of a need to try and draw games to stop be embarassed. He inherited a team on the decline and then lost even more players to the rebel tours of SA.

Clarke is rebuilding a side and like Taylor seems to have the complete backing & trust of the dressing room. Bowlers don't feel that there are favourites (unlike under Ponting) who get to mop up the tail to make their figures look better than they are (Johnson).
 

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Watching Clarke, I think he seems to be the most natural captain we have had since Taylor, both Waugh and Ponting were good captains, with amazing records in charge of unbelievable teams, but they didn't strike me as natural leaders in the way that Taylor was and Clarke seems to be.
 

Slattery_20

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One difference, in the early Taylor era you had a bunch of blokes like Langer, Lehmann, Hayden and Martyn absolutely smashing the door down in domestic cricket. When the likes of Boon and Border retired, other guys were ready to just slip in.

At the moment, do we really have that?
How the hell would we know with the amount of state cricket (not) being played??
Khawaja, Hughes & Watson (swap Marsh soon enough) are waiting in the wings. Christian, Wade &/or Paine, too, a bit lower down.

Not fantastic, but there's half the order sorted out.
 

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MisterMarcus

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#12
I've always thought Waugh was a lead by example, he inherited an unbelievable side which really didn't need a strong captain and was full of players who were ruthless. The likes of Warne, McGrath, Gilchrist, Hayden all loved to smash opposition sides in submittion. This wasn't taught by Waugh and is not the sort of thing that can be taught by anyone.
Waugh had a HUGE input into guys like Hayden, Langer, Katich, etc...all of whom were regarded as not quite good enough during the 90's.

When Waugh took over Hayden was regarded as a flat-track Shield bully who averaged 24 in Test cricket. Justin Langer was allegedly too limited and too stodgy. Waugh publicly backed these guys at every opportunity and they thrived under his leadership into skilled, tough, uncompromising cricketers. Ditto Katich, who went to another level when he moved to NSW under Waugh's captaincy.

Even Gilchrist, who was insecure and scratching around down the order in the ODI team until Waugh had the idea to open with him.
 

sherb

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#13
Taylor was the best captain we had since Ian Chappell. Let's not make any mistake about that. Tactical nous was brilliant. Fielding, bowling and batting standards improved until we became a super side, which Waugh took over in it's prime.

Waugh was a great leader by example and certainly had a very committed unit but an extremely rigid one dimensional captain. Never thought he was a great tactical captain. Had a super side but the few Tests we lost in the time were often down to his captaincy. Ponting got the same results with the same side then got found out when the big guns retired.
To say Ponting got "found out" when he lost the name players is ludicrous. The captain has to have the players, tactical nous or leadership skills can only compensate so much for not having a gun side.

How do you reckon Waugh or Taylor would have gone with no McGrath, Warne, Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Gilchrist, Lee, Gillespie, etc?
 

laminex

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To say Ponting got "found out" when he lost the name players is ludicrous. The captain has to have the players, tactical nous or leadership skills can only compensate so much for not having a gun side.

How do you reckon Waugh or Taylor would have gone with no McGrath, Warne, Hayden, Langer, Martyn, Gilchrist, Lee, Gillespie, etc?
Punter had them and still lost the ashes, because he did not have the balls or sight to go for win. He captained out of fear. He also said that he did not want to be known as the captain that lost the ashes and that it was the team that lost it with there input, that in it self shows how weak minded he is. If you are the Boss the blame is always on you and you alone, every time no matter what.
 
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Punter had them and still lost the ashes, because he did not have the balls or sight to go for win. He captained out of fear. He also said that he did not want to be known as the captain that lost the ashes and that it was the team that lost it with there input, that in it self shows how weak minded he is. If you are the Boss the blame is always on you and you alone, every time no matter what.
Ponting was backed up by some inept selectors (Hilditch at the forefront) and some inept coaches (Cooley, Langer).

Along with changing the captain to Clarke, Cricket Australia at least has had the wisdom to eject the old selectors and one of the coaches. How Langer still survives amazes me, but Rome wasn't built in a day.
 

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#16
Waugh was a great leader by example and certainly had a very committed unit but an extremely rigid one dimensional captain. Never thought he was a great tactical captain. Had a super side but the few Tests we lost in the time were often down to his captaincy. Ponting got the same results with the same side then got found out when the big guns retired.
Waugh and Punter were very much the lead from the front captains who did their best talking with the bat.

Remember Pup Clarke has already led a team to 47 all out, hardly the mark of a future great
 

MisterMarcus

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#17
Have people forgotten Sydney last year?

When Clarke captained the same bunch of nuffies that got thrashed by an Innings in Melbourne.....they still got thrashed by an innings.

You need to have the players; now Clarke has some young guns coming through (Warner, Patto, Cummings, maybe Marsh, maybe Khawaja) and some rejuvinated and injury-free older blokes (Hilfy, Siddle, Harris, Ponting, Hussey) he's going great guns.

I bet if Clarke still had Hughes and Steve Smith and Johnson, a short-shit Siddle, an injured Hilfy and a rustier-than-a-bag-of-hammers Bollinger in the team....we'd be going as shit as we were under Ponting.
 
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The jury is still very much out on Clarke. There is nothing in the results yet that are better than Punter could have mustered regardless of whether or not we think he looks the better captain.

He got pumped in his only test against England which is the real test.

Beat SL 1-0 and this is a Lankan team stripped of Malinga, Vaas and Murali. Punter had more emphatic victories against them.

Drew with South Africa over there which is our worst result post-isolation and that was against a team which hadn't played first class cricket since Jan. Let's also not forget that it featured two debutant bowlers.

Lost the first test to NZ on home soil in over twenty years.

Has beaten the Indians emphatically but this ageing, dispirited team has only offered token resistance.

The worrying thing is that twice when chasing wins Clarke was dismissed cheaply and that is coming in down the order after failing at #4. They were in Hobart and Joburg.

For all the criticism that Border and Punter received at times about their captaincy, they never hid down the order and invariably led from the front.

Of course though the NSW propagadana is putting the Aussie renaissance down to Clarke despite the meekness of the opposition.

In all honesty, apart from England, who the hell is there who's much chop in world cricket?

Perhaps Australia's fall from grace was over exaggerated as there's actually not much competition around.
 

DIG

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#20
Waugh had a HUGE input into guys like Hayden, Langer, Katich, etc...all of whom were regarded as not quite good enough during the 90's.

When Waugh took over Hayden was regarded as a flat-track Shield bully who averaged 24 in Test cricket. Justin Langer was allegedly too limited and too stodgy. Waugh publicly backed these guys at every opportunity and they thrived under his leadership into skilled, tough, uncompromising cricketers. Ditto Katich, who went to another level when he moved to NSW under Waugh's captaincy.

Even Gilchrist, who was insecure and scratching around down the order in the ODI team until Waugh had the idea to open with him.
Spot on. Waugh established a culture of utter ruthlessness, even in dead rubbers. Was a great fit for that side.

Taylor was a brilliant tactician and great captain, but captaincy's more than just bowling changes and setting the field, altho that seems to be the only criteria to a lot of people. Ponting was at his most inspirational when he led with the bat in his prime.

One can only wonder how great a captain Warney could've been, had he not been such a goose off field.
 

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#21
Ponting was just a captain, bordering on being a poor captain. I think we saw this when we finally beat India in India when Gilchrist captained, won every game he captained, ponting came in and we lost. Didn't back his players, didn't put them under pressure and didn't have any nouse or imagination. Ponting never had a plan and if he did I couldn't see it, he didn't have much under his sleve, set a field to stop the runs and just bowl where you like and we will see what happens and maybe get a catch in slips.

Ponting set defensive fields and set fields for bad bowling. Ponting should have placed attacking fields for Johnson until he was constantly going for 100 runs per innings and the selectors finally woke up rather than protecting his shit bowling.

Ponting never used his part timers to break partnerships. Katick, Clarke, Ponting himself and Hussey are all capable bowlers and partnership breakers who rarely bowled under Ponting. Who he bowled and when was predictable and robotically systamatic. Clarke has a better understanding of bowling and tactically getting batsmen out and setting them up. Under Clarke we are seeing a short leg, less players on the leg side and boundry and more players in slips, gully, point and covers. That also has a bit to do with the improvement in bowling which has come down to getting rid of Cooley who did much much more harm than good and no doubt is ruining our future bowlers by being the bowling coach in the center of excellence. Getting rid of Hilditch and his panel of bumbling idiots who have been costing us series since they cost us the 2005 ashes has also made a huge improvement. I wouldn't write Langer off as a bad coach I think he is learning and our batsmen are making improvements but I am not totally convinced. Our new coach is alright too.
 

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#23
Lot of mentions of XXXX captain inheriting a good team from the one before. I tried to find somewhere to see what the first teams of each ones captaincy were (eg what was the team in Mark Taylors first test as Captain) but have not been able to find it. Would be interesting to see I think if anyone can find this.
 

MisterMarcus

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Ponting was just a captain, bordering on being a poor captain. I think we saw this when we finally beat India in India when Gilchrist captained, won every game he captained, ponting came in and we lost. Didn't back his players, didn't put them under pressure and didn't have any nouse or imagination. Ponting never had a plan and if he did I couldn't see it, he didn't have much under his sleve, set a field to stop the runs and just bowl where you like and we will see what happens and maybe get a catch in slips.

Ponting set defensive fields and set fields for bad bowling. Ponting should have placed attacking fields for Johnson until he was constantly going for 100 runs per innings and the selectors finally woke up rather than protecting his shit bowling.

Ponting never used his part timers to break partnerships. Katick, Clarke, Ponting himself and Hussey are all capable bowlers and partnership breakers who rarely bowled under Ponting. Who he bowled and when was predictable and robotically systamatic. Clarke has a better understanding of bowling and tactically getting batsmen out and setting them up. Under Clarke we are seeing a short leg, less players on the leg side and boundry and more players in slips, gully, point and covers. .
Or.....it could just be that Ponting for the last few years didn't have good consistent bowlers that could land it on the spot and keep it tight?

You HAVE to set fields with 4 guys on the fence when Mitch Johnson and Co are sending down a steady diet of long hops on leg stump! I actually felt sorry for Ponting......what else is he supposed to do when the guys can't land 6 balls in the same spot??

Clarke can afford to set attacking fields and "clever" plans because he now has the bowlers who can do the job. As we saw in Sydney last year, when he didn't have the cattle, he looked as directionless as Ponting.
 

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#25
Ponting set defensive fields and set fields for bad bowling. Ponting should have placed attacking fields for Johnson until he was constantly going for 100 runs per innings and the selectors finally woke up rather than protecting his shit bowling.
he had shit bowlers, so he had to set fields for shit bowling, hardly rocket science.

you seriously think a good captain would let a bowler go for 6 an over for 20 overs each innings? you must be out of your mind.
 
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