Since 1995 We have had 11 premiers

[Herne Hill Hammer]

Treading water is far better than being demoted. Relegation would destroy some teams. Corporate and fan support weakened, the best players gone once the fragile salary cap and drafting rules are smashed right open...every sporting comp in the world with P/R is filled with a majority of teams who are basically f###ed unless they can find a Russian billionaire...a stupid system with no redeeming features...

Conferences would be far better, and once you tap into the essence of sport, the very reason why we all watch - the grudges and rivalries - then you have a powerful set up. Thing is, the AFL has officially rejected the notion. Not sure why, but their accounting nous is a bit better than mine, so there must be issues that bin it...[/quote]

Amongst other reasons, I think this is half the point of the new teams being in Western Sydney and the Gold Coast. In their developing years they'll be trying to nurture the logical rivalries with Sydney and Brisbane respectively to fast track the interest and growth. Brisbane and Gold Coast already have competitive games, hopefully it won't be too long before GWS and Sydney games follow suit.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Since when does evenness of the competition mean the AFL is working. In fact having a competition that is too even is just as bad as having one that is too one sided. We need championship teams just as much as much as we need evenness.

That's wrong IMO. That only works in the NBA because there are so many casual viewers and they love to see winners/champions and happy to follow players rather then teams

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

That's wrong IMO. That only works in the NBA because there are so many casual viewers and they love to see winners/champions and happy to follow players rather then teams

I'm pretty rapt that I got to witness the 3Peat Lions, Hawthorn from the mid 70s until '91, the current Geelong side, West Coast of the early to mid 90s, North with Carey during the 90s, Carlton in '79, '81 and '82 and also north in the mid to late 70s.

Much, much tougher now with the travel, salary cap and draft, that's why when a side comes along that dominates for a few years I can appreciate them so much more.

Regardless of what draft picks a club receives, it's no good if they can't hold onto them and develop them to somewhere near their full capabilities. Pre-draft days you could just spend money on all the best talent and mould them into a team, these days draft selection and development are the most important things.

 

[Seeds]

That's wrong IMO. That only works in the NBA because there are so many casual viewers and they love to see winners/champions and happy to follow players rather then teams

What a load of crap. The whole notion of following sport is so you can hope that your team will prevail. If you have a truly even competition then every team wins a premiership once every 18 years and no one has anything to celebrate. Premierships are worthless if you don't have to overcome challenges and odds to win them and beat great sides. We need our great teams as well as our great individuals. Without them sport is nothing. This doesn't mean we go down the path of the money driven EPL however, that is just as worthless for the complete opposite reasons. Salary caps are needed. Drafts that have orders based on how badly you perform we do not need.

 

[SBYM]

For me it isn't about the ability for all teams to win, which is undeniably good, however you can't rest on your laurels - for example off-field spend for the big clubs has sky-rocketed plus the Free Trade effect. Tweaking the system should fix that.

This. Things can always be done better, and I'm not talking about the indiscriminate change the AFL seems to have made its mantra of late.

If, for example, the purported evenness of the competition rests on an inherently unfair fixture, then that evenness is just a facade.

 

[Scotland]

11 premiers, how many asterisks?

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Since when does evenness of the competition mean the AFL is working. In fact having a competition that is too even is just as bad as having one that is too one sided. We need championship teams just as much as much as we need evenness.

Brisbane 2001-2004 and Geelong 2007- are two of the five best teams in history.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Which is also why Over the top drafting concessions for start-up franchises in response to previous under-support, may affect the integrity of the competition in years to come. I've spoken to a few visiting US sports fans recently, and their response to the first round draft concessions for GC and GWS has been WTF? But anyway, probably for a different thread.

Do they understand that our draft is far more hit and miss compared to US varieties due to the drafting age being 18 and players not having gone through the college systems?

 

[final fight]

Salary cap and draft still need to be scrapped.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

Do they understand that our draft is far more hit and miss compared to US varieties due to the drafting age being 18 and players not having gone through the college systems?

Well the number of top 15 misses in recent drafts are far outweighed by the hits. Judging by this thread, I may well be in a minority with my views about the concessions given.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

How does that follow? The AFL messed with the game every five minutes during 1995-2012. Key rules like Priority Draft Picks and even the Finals System were given multiple overhauls. How you can you point to that period as evidence for things working fine when left alone?

Perhaps the argument being made is "We've messed with the game plenty, but that's enough, it's now working fine, let's leave it be for a while and just enjoy the fruits of all that fine-tuning"

 

[imadodgyumpire]

I can't believe people knock the EPL. It's probably the easiest comp for minor clubs to win, even if on the surface, it doesn't appear that way. Not too many comps where rabbles like Mancity and Chelsea can become powerhouses. These possibilities are still left to other clubs. Compared to the AFL, where there are many restrictions, and any advantage possibly gained is hard to generate.

 

[bomberswarm2]

This is the reason we should NOT change our game, the game works fine. Roo made comments in the paper the other day about conferences. While the idea sounds cute, its not an issue.

If you look to the NBA, they have 30 teams, and over the last 30 years, they've managed to find only 8 different championship winners.

13 out of the 16 teams have been involved in a grand final. (not including GWS and Gold Coast)

Fremantle, Richmond and Bulldogs haven't made the GF, however the Bulldogs have at least made a number of prelim finals.

Leaving just Freo and Richmond to have been the only clubs to have really failed to have a genuine chance at a premiership.

Those two teams interestingly have a genuine chance in the next 3 years.

Leave the game as it is.

Between 2000 and 2008, every team made the Preliminary Finals at least once.

4: Brisbane, Port Adelaide
3: Adelaide, Collingwood, Geelong, St. Kilda, Sydney
2: Essendon, Hawthorn, North Melbourne, West Coast
1: Carlton, Fremantle, Melbourne, Richmond, Western Bulldogs

The last 4 years from 2009-2012 though:

4: Collingwood
3: Geelong
2: St. Kilda, Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs
1: Adelaide, Sydney, West Coast
0: Brisbane, Carlton, Essendon, Fremantle, Melbourne, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Richmond

8 of the 16 clubs have played in a Preliminary Final, compared to 11 from 2000 to 2003.
Is the game becoming less fair? Seeing as only 2 teams over 9 years who made 4 Prelimenary Finals, and over 4 years there is one who made 4 and one who made 3 already, it would seem it is becoming a bigger gap between the good and bad teams.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Well the number of top 15 misses in recent drafts are far outweighed by the hits. Judging by this thread, I may well be in a minority with my views about the concessions given.

The draft is overrated. Look at some of the top 2 or 3 picks over the last 10 years only some good-average players and players who are picked up in the 30's being just as solid best-22 types.

 

[Buzz/Sticks/bryce]

The draft is overrated. Look at some of the top 2 or 3 picks over the last 10 years only some good-average players and players who are picked up in the 30's being just as solid best-22 types.

2009

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1 Tom Scully Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Melbourne
2 Jack Trengove Sturt SANFL Melbourne
3 Dustin Martin Bendigo Pioneers TAC Cup Richmond
4 Anthony Morabito Peel WAFL Fremantle
5 Ben Cunnington Geelong Falcons TAC Cup North Melbourne
6 Gary Rohan Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Sydney
7 Brad Sheppard East Fremantle WAFL West Coast
8 John Butcher Gippsland Power TAC Cup Port Adelaide
9 Andrew Moore Eastern Ranges TAC Cup Port Adelaide
10 Jake Melksham Calder Cannons TAC Cup Essendon
11 Jordan Gysberts Eastern Ranges TAC Cup Melbourne
12 Kane Lucas East Fremantle WAFL Carlton
13 Daniel Talia Calder Cannons TAC Cup Adelaide
14 Lewis Jetta Swan Districts WAFL Sydney
15 Christian Howard Glenelg SANFL
Western Bulldogs



2010

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1 David Swallow East Fremantle WAFL Gold Coast
2 Harley Bennell Peel Thunder WAFL Gold Coast
3 Sam Day Sturt SANFL Gold Coast
4 Andrew Gaff Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup West Coast
5 Jared Polec Woodville-West Torrens SANFL Brisbane Lions
6 Reece Conca Perth WAFL Richmond
7 Josh Caddy Northern Knights TAC Cup Gold Coast
8 Dyson Heppell Gippsland Power TAC Cup Essendon
9 Dion Prestia Calder Cannons TAC Cup Gold Coast
10 Daniel Gorringe Norwood SANFL Gold Coast
11 Thomas Lynch Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Gold Coast
12 Lucas Cook North Ballarat Rebels TAC Cup Melbourne
13 Seb Tape Glenelg SANFL Gold Coast
14 Brodie Smith Woodville-West Torrens SANFL Adelaide
15 Billie Smedts Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Geelong

2011 AFL National Draft

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1 Jonathon Patton Eastern Ranges TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
2 Stephen Coniglio Swan Districts WAFL Greater Western Sydney
3 Dom Tyson Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
4 Will Hoskin-Elliott Western Jets TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
5 Matt Buntine Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
6 Chad Wingard Sturt SANFL Port Adelaide
7 Nick Haynes Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
8 Billy Longer Northern Knights TAC Cup Brisbane Lions
9 Adam Tomlinson Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
10 Liam Sumner Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
11 Toby Greene Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
12 Sam Docherty Gippsland Power TAC Cup Brisbane Lions
13 Taylor Adams Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
14 Devon Smith Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Greater Western Sydney
1 15 Brandon Ellis Calder Cannons TAC Cup Richmond


I'd be interested in hearing how many of the top 15 from the 09', 10' & 11' drafts are over-rated and not worthy of a spot on a list.

Don't judge draft science as a whole by the results of M.F.C​

 

[Gibbke]

I can't believe people knock the EPL. It's probably the easiest comp for minor clubs to win, even if on the surface, it doesn't appear that way. Not too many comps where rabbles like Mancity and Chelsea can become powerhouses. These possibilities are still left to other clubs. Compared to the AFL, where there are many restrictions, and any advantage possibly gained is hard to generate.

Luring a Russian billionaire to buy the world's best players for you is not exactly in the spirit of rising to the challenge...as soon as that guy is gone, Chelsea will be broke possibly to the point of liquidation...how is this good...?

The EPL is rubbish, as is the structure of every league in Europe. If the best teams in Europe were to break away and form an elite 20 or so team comp, it would become the richest and most popular sporting league in the world, and you can absolutely guarantee, with the money being pumped into it, that there would be no promotion or relegation, with a possibility that they might cap the payments to players...

 

[Franc de Borges]

This is the reason we should NOT change our game, the game works fine. Roo made comments in the paper the other day about conferences. While the idea sounds cute, its not an issue.

If you look to the NBA, they have 30 teams, and over the last 30 years, they've managed to find only 8 different championship winners.

13 out of the 16 teams have been involved in a grand final. (not including GWS and Gold Coast)

Fremantle, Richmond and Bulldogs haven't made the GF, however the Bulldogs have at least made a number of prelim finals.

Leaving just Freo and Richmond to have been the only clubs to have really failed to have a genuine chance at a premiership.

Those two teams interestingly have a genuine chance in the next 3 years.

Leave the game as it is.

Do you mean leave as it is, as in, don't change anymore rules, or do you mean leave it as it is in the sense that you want things to carry on as they have been for the last 20 years?

They are two very different things.

 

[Frank White]

Salary cap and draft still need to be scrapped.

In that case we can buy whoever we like

 

[final fight]

In that case we can buy whoever we like

Exactly, but in a responsible manner. Spending rules like the Bundesliga has. Would make for a much more exciting comp.

 

[imadodgyumpire]

Luring a Russian billionaire to buy the world's best players for you is not exactly in the spirit of rising to the challenge...as soon as that guy is gone, Chelsea will be broke possibly to the point of liquidation...how is this good...?

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It's a fair point. However the point was that it was an open market and the opportunity is there to build yourself up, even if it's artificially.

The EPL is rubbish,

The EPL is alright.

as is the structure of every league in Europe. If the best teams in Europe were to break away and form an elite 20 or so team comp, it would become the richest and most popular sporting league in the world, and you can absolutely guarantee, with the money being pumped into it, that there would be no promotion or relegation, with a possibility that they might cap the payments to players...

Never going to happen under any circumstance.

 

[doppleganger]

Let's extend the season to 82 games then...the game lasts as long as baseball, why not 162...? The EPL has this fairness in the fixture - but absolutely nowhere else, which makes it a moot point if we're talking competitive equity...let's turn Collingwood into Man U by giving them a billion dollars to do with as they please, and then remove the salary cap and drafting for everyone, but make them play every game away...

What the feck are you on about?

The OP was alluding to comments about conferences being a bad idea, and to prove his point he used champions between respective leagues.

Absolute dribble of a comparison.

The AFL could/should investigate a conference system to re-introduce equity and integrity to the fixture, which is something it has thrown out the window in the last few seasons for the pursuit of the $$. The game is as noncompetitive as it has been for ages, and part of the reason is that the fixture is compromised.

The salary and draft are the equalisation mechanisms that see clubs cycle through different phases....but it is a joke that the fixture now impacts on finishing positions on the ladder.

 

[Gibbke]

I'm not quoting the OP, Doppelganger, I'm quoting you.

You're talking about fairness and equity and probably can't give a clear definition of exactly what that is. The vast majority of people here who go on about this say either full home and away, or just cycle through the roster once...as it stands that means a 17 or 34 game season...

If you're talking conferences, though, then it's the Yanks who have the models. You could play everyone else a lot, hence the baseball and basketball comparisons. You'd put a group together of full home and away matches, and then you match up against a certain number of opponents. In the NFL, the closest scenario to us being a football code, you play 13 other teams in the 17 week season, and you won't see the other 19 at all...

Skip to the end. Go back and find the Four Conference Model thread from about ten months ago, for the best possible model of a conference system. Then tell me how fair and equitable it is...at least in the current scenario, you won't find a premier that hasn't deserved their flag. You'd actually be hard pressed to find a team who has really benefitted from the draw in terms of even making the eight, truth be told. It just makes a great conspiracy theory story, which not only doesn't statistically stand up, but is also easly explained by the 100 page book the AFL releases every year detailing what the CLUBS asked for in this draw, and how much of it the AFL was able to accomodate...

 

[Blue1980]

I think only priority picks should go, leave the rest alone.

Free agency will be six of one half dozen of the other, in that it will help lower clubs sometimes, other times hinder.

End of the day there is a salary cap.

 

[RobbieGray17]

What the feck are you on about?

The OP was alluding to comments about conferences being a bad idea, and to prove his point he used champions between respective leagues.

Absolute dribble of a comparison.

The AFL could/should investigate a conference system to re-introduce equity and integrity to the fixture, which is something it has thrown out the window in the last few seasons for the pursuit of the $$. The game is as noncompetitive as it has been for ages, and part of the reason is that the fixture is compromised.

The salary and draft are the equalisation mechanisms that see clubs cycle through different phases....but it is a joke that the fixture now impacts on finishing positions on the ladder.

Every team in the AFL has had a chance to win a flag. The teams that have failed poorly over the last decade have only themselves to blame, due to poor decisions, bad trading etc. Eg Melbourne, Richmond, Carlton and Fremantle. All of those sides are now up and about. with the exception of Melbourne.

We've got a pretty good game here so lets not tamper with it.

 

[RobbieGray17]

Between 2000 and 2008, every team made the Preliminary Finals at least once.

4: Brisbane, Port Adelaide
3: Adelaide, Collingwood, Geelong, St. Kilda, Sydney
2: Essendon, Hawthorn, North Melbourne, West Coast
1: Carlton, Fremantle, Melbourne, Richmond, Western Bulldogs

The last 4 years from 2009-2012 though:

4: Collingwood
3: Geelong
2: St. Kilda, Hawthorn, Western Bulldogs
1: Adelaide, Sydney, West Coast
0: Brisbane, Carlton, Essendon, Fremantle, Melbourne, North Melbourne, Port Adelaide, Richmond

8 of the 16 clubs have played in a Preliminary Final, compared to 11 from 2000 to 2003.
Is the game becoming less fair? Seeing as only 2 teams over 9 years who made 4 Prelimenary Finals, and over 4 years there is one who made 4 and one who made 3 already, it would seem it is becoming a bigger gap between the good and bad teams.

I disagree.
1. Carlton were one game from being top 4 with 17-18 wins from memory, and they've fallen away a little. But they have more than enough superstars to win a flag.
2. Richmond are only starting to come good, again they have more than enough stars to head up a GF in the next few years.
3. Melbourne made some horrible decisions, had they got the trades and decisions right, they may not be in the mess they are in.
4. Essendon should make a huge shot at a GF in the next few years.
4. North Melbourne have a pretty good list. I'd expect them to be contenders in the next few years.
5. Sides like Geelong and Hawthorn and Collingwood have earnt their spots through years of hard work and team rebuilding.

You've also included a very small sample size of a mere 4 years. Extend it over 10-15 years and you might get a better reflection of the state of the AFL.