Since 2006 we have Stayed the Same

[DWil6]

so he was allowed to change it to ****wit?

Ahh Opti. It's always entertaining to see when you unleash on the unsuspecting posters.

 

[Markfs]

i would have thought that the biggest change in the last 4 years is that the club has learnt how to recruit and develop players.

The title of this thread is plainly ridiculous.

 

[Gone Critical]

Grumpy, lets take the hypothetical and imagine against your belief that MM snags a flag in the next 2 years

Do you think there is a chance you could enjoy such an event or do you think the bitter twisted state you are in would render that impossible?

 

[Markfs]

Malthouse generally gets the best of the players at his disposal. His weakness maybe his adherence to playing "finals footy" which is man-on-man strong defensive footy. The numbers will show that this style generally wins grand finals..... and it was Geelong that won the man-on-man battles this year.

However, there are years when new strategies can pinch a premiership. Hawthorn is an example and Malthouse's stubborness with staying with the same game plan probably meant that we have been slow to deal with zoning. Every ball game in the world has zoning and it works sometimes but he didnt want to address it.... I think he acknowledged zoning as being here to stay this year..

Another example is Sydney, I think, that played swarming football with a committed midfield and a couple of real stars. It was something different and lot of teams had, and some still have, problems dealing with that strategy. Malthouse hasn't been one of them.

I think Malthouse, himself, has said in the past that he would like to have more time during the season to evaluate new things... I dont think its one of his strong suits.

Hopefully, Bucks will be an improvement in the strategies area but I dont think he could ever improve on Malthouse's ability to get the most out of the players. If we arent up to scratch, question the recruiting boys who have been absolutely crap until the last 3 or 4 years.

 

[DaisysHair]

Wow, you are beyond a Grumpy Bum, what did you think of the Tony Shaw era then?

 

[MarkT2]

Some interesting “facts” and observations in this thread. I honestly think some people feel it is their duty to make illogical arguments out of a sense of loyalty. We may or may not have advanced since 2006. To argue one way or the other definitively is silly. It just isn’t that clear cut. That is beside the point though. The point is that after a decade you HAVE to be winning flags to be deemed a success. We aren’t so we aren’t. I defy anyone to honestly say they would have accepted a decade of no flags without moving on the coach when we signed Malthouse in late 1999 let alone rated us as successful.

No one lasts a decade without a flag and this is a club with all the resources you could ask for. Tom Hafey got MUCH better results and lasted half the time. I can’t see how Malthouse can be rated a success at Collingwood and I can’t see how the President can therefore be rated a success when he hasn’t moved him on. The president’s job is to win flags no matter how much people say he can’t get a kick on the weekend. The prime minister does need teaching experience but he sure as hell has to be responsible for the health of the school system.

It is staggering how we redefine success to what we achieve. Do people think it is coincidence that we don’t win premierships? What would the odds be on that sort of coincidence?

 

[Pie eyed]

Some interesting “facts” and observations in this thread. I honestly think some people feel it is their duty to make illogical arguments out of a sense of loyalty. We may or may not have advanced since 2006. To argue one way or the other definitively is silly. It just isn’t that clear cut. That is beside the point though. The point is that after a decade you HAVE to be winning flags to be deemed a success. We aren’t so we aren’t. I defy anyone to honestly say they would have accepted a decade of no flags without moving on the coach when we signed Malthouse in late 1999 let alone rated us as successful.

No one lasts a decade without a flag and this is a club with all the resources you could ask for. Tom Hafey got MUCH better results and lasted half the time. I can’t see how Malthouse can be rated a success at Collingwood and I can’t see how the President can therefore be rated a success when he hasn’t moved him on. The president’s job is to win flags no matter how much people say he can’t get a kick on the weekend. The prime minister does need teaching experience but he sure as hell has to be responsible for the health of the school system.

It is staggering how we redefine success to what we achieve. Do people think it is coincidence that we don’t win premierships? What would the odds be on that sort of coincidence?

I'm not having a go at your post but this;

The prime minister does need teaching experience but he sure as hell has to be responsible for the health of the school system.

is not the ideal example to get what I think was your point across as consectutive Governements and Prime Ministers have been nowhere near "winning a flag" in these areas.

 

[MarkT2]

I agree. Succesive governments have been ordinary in many areas and all too often let politics get in the way. Political agendas aside though the real issue with politicians is they aren't generally the cream of the crop.

They are, however, responsible for a great many things they do not do well at/in.

To carry the analogy further:
Governments have to balance a lot of agendas and have limited resources. The current administration started with latent resouces and did a great job of rebuilding a wreck. The OP was about progress though and IMO we stalled a long time ago. Stalled is perhaps an exageration but until we measure succces as flags we wont see it. That is particularly so given our current circumstances.

 

[Pie eyed]

I agree. Succesive governments have been ordinary in many areas and all too often let politics get in the way. Political agendas aside though the real issue with politicians is they aren't generally the cream of the crop.

They are, however, responsible for a great many things they do not do well at/in.

To carry the analogy further:
Governments have to balance a lot of agendas and have limited resources. The current administration started with latent resouces and did a great job of rebuilding a wreck. The OP was about progress though and IMO we stalled a long time ago. Stalled is perhaps an exageration but until we measure succces as flags we wont see it. That is particularly so given our current circumstances.

Granted we stalled after 2004 and it was obvious that the club had to take clear action. We had reached the peak of that sides abilities and success, unfortunately, without a flag.
I would consider 2005 15th, as most would, our bottoming out period and the first the club experienced since the priority pick was added to the draft system. Since that year we rapidly improved our list, with Maxwell, Cloke and Rusling already at the club from the 2004 draft and picking up Thomas, Pendles, Jack Anthony, Fat Cox (yes I know but there is still hope) and of course the cult legend Toovey (Rookied).
You'd agree mostly important players now.
2006 we added Medders via trade, our best trade for a long time, Ben Reid, Nathan Brown, Chris Dawes, Brad Dick and Tyson Goldsack.
This probably our single best two year drafting period since the inception, certainly on numbers of better than serviceable players picked up and only possibly bettered in a single draft year in 1988 where we got Tony Francis, Scotty Russell. Of course the greatest single trade we've made in recent history was Bucks.
Presti 1995, Rocca (Trade) 1996, Scotty Burns 1992. also notable inclusion pre Malty.

2007 we traded for Wood and picked up Barham and Toby Thoolen wih exceptionally crap picks.
2008 Sidey and Beams (who could turn out to rival Francis and Russell selection...please) Blight and Rounds (who I know very little about but are very highly rated by VFL watchers) and of course the much maligned by more than useful Leigh Brown.

Add to these recent educated selections, Jolly a much needed tap ruckman, possibly Ball, fingers crossed, and a youngster maybe.


All the recent choices in selection have been at the very least AFL standard players and at best exceptionally good players.

It all points to improvement.
Placing a single accomplishment as the only defining yardstick for success or even improvement without taking into account circumstance.

We are the second most successful club in the competition over the 100+ years and still have only managed 14 flags....16 is not that much better statistically. Proof that it is not that easy to win one. Swans waited 71 years? Geelong?
A flag is the confluence of the right players, with the right coaching staff, at the right time backed by the right administration. Throw in some luck with both injuries and circumstance and you have the recipe. A very difficult recipe to repeat from decade to decade.

The best chance of getting a flag is to know what you are trying to achieve and find a way through or over the hurdles all the while remaining in a position to be there in the last game if the opportunity presents.

All this under the artificial pressures imposed by both the draft and the salary cap specifically designed to trim the tall poppies and redistribute the talent.

It just is not as simple as demanding success.

Besides if it were so easy it would never be as sweet.

The last 3 years and the 4-5 to come are the most exciting I can remember in my 36 years as a cognisant Collingwood supporter.
The OP may be right, but only in that we have stayed proud and competitive, with the chance to go all the way.

Many other clubs supporters would swap our last 3-4 years for theirs without hesitation.

 

[Rippednew1]

Because we just get flogged every year by the best teams. Its not as if we have come out the next year and done a Hawthorn or a geelong is it?

making the finals is only part of the equation, we never progress any further than making up the numbers. That is why your argument of improvement under malthouse is flawed, we havent improved, we have gone backwards since 2007.

North had these concerns bigtime in 2006 about Laidley. Lot of people wanted his head, fast forward a few years and most again wanted him out asap. Even though Laidley never had the 18 mcg games or high altitude facilities his stifling of the list and gameplan never improved. Laidley seemed to want to be a part of the side and ensured there were a number of worker bees floating around mostly just pawns in his fantasy world. The Scrap heap dog always took the credit for wins and sprayed players after losses. Scott hopefully wont bring a ceiling of pre lims as both Pie sides this year were beaten well come finals. What you say might get a few more ticks if MM wasn't on the plank already.

 

[MarkT2]

Pye Eyed, we want the same thing. We differ as to how to get it in some respects. As I said earlier you can't really say definitely whether we have progressed - at least until you can use hindsight. What gets me is how we still fail at the same time for the same reasons. Marginal progress is well and truely less than what I would find acceptable. We have been discussing this amrgin progress on and off for 50 years. Well at least our parents have been and we contnue the tradition. We are nothing if not traditional at Collingwood.

 

[Pie eyed]

Pye Eyed, we want the same thing. We differ as to how to get it in some respects. As I said earlier you can't really say definitely whether we have progressed - at least until you can use hindsight. What gets me is how we still fail at the same time for the same reasons. Marginal progress is well and truely less than what I would find acceptable. We have been discussing this amrgin progress on and off for 50 years. Well at least our parents have been and we contnue the tradition. We are nothing if not traditional at Collingwood.

I was not aiming too much of that at you personally per se.
Slightly off track but relavent...did you realise this is the club ethos?

Photographed at Victoria Park.

 

[Grumpy Bum]

Wow, you are beyond a Grumpy Bum, what did you think of the Tony Shaw era then?

As a coach, no flags, a failure, much like Malthouse, no flags, has failed to achieve the one thing he was employed to bring to the club.

No matter how you dress is up, talking up nonsense points about team building and list development, if you dont win a flag in 10 years at the club as the main influence for all onfield matters, be it drafting, list development , game plan and anything else, then you have FAILED!!!!

Because in 10 years you should have had all that nailed down in the first 3 years. Malthouse has gone backwards in the last 2 seasons against the benchmarks of the competition. Being 4th means nothing when you get beaten by 10 goals last year and 13 goals this year against the very best in the comp. Might as well be 12th and get the benefits of better drafting, for all that finishing 4th meant to us this year.

 

[Hva sher a]

Geez that is one of the worst theories I have come across!

could not agree more! in 07 we played above ourselves and had a great finals series but it turned out to be the last hurrah for Clement, Bucks (and in a way, Pebs). This time, we have better kids, more depth and better rucks.

Of course we've improved - its just that Geel and Sants have improved more.

 

[Pie eyed]

Same line.....ad nauseum.

We don't buy it so stop selling it.

 

[Grumpy Bum]

Same line.....ad nauseum.

We don't buy it so stop selling it.

same results from malthouse, yet you lap that crap up, in fact you revel in us not winning flags and derive some joy from falling short. Go figure.

Maybe you should send a suggestion into Eddie and get them to put 'near enough is good enough' as the club motto.

Thank god there are still some who wont accept mediocrity.

 

[Optimax]

same results from malthouse, yet you lap that crap up, in fact you revel in us not winning flags and derive some joy from falling short. Go figure.

Maybe you should send a suggestion into Eddie and get them to put 'near enough is good enough' as the club motto.

Thank god there are still some who wont accept mediocrity.

 

[Grumpy Bum]

Ah yes Optimax, another too scared to go against the flow, too afraid to question, will blindly follow other sheep into the abyss of mediocrity.

'lets never question eddie', after all, he has delivered half of what he promised.

Where's the premiership he has talked about in 1999, after 2002 and at the beginning of this year? Now you wouldn't want to be seen to be questioning him on that, as long as he turns a dollar, you are happy.

Maybe if you weren't so intent on yours and others palms, you might take them out of your pockets and use your hands for better use other than self gratification from eddies money making prowess.

P.S. that was pretty much how most Collingwood supporters looked as Ablett cut holes thru us in the prelim.