Snoops 2016 List Management, Trade and Draft thoughts

[DrMike]

Here's a link to a points table put together by DrMike.
Completely un-emotional, (which is a good thing) analysis.
Draw your own conclusions...
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/2016-nominal-afl-draft-order.1136636/page-6#post-47493346

Just for clarity, wasn't me it was Fly

 

[Bay Pie]

The direction of the club is pretty clear to me. Get rid of all the poor ball users. Irrespective of stats provided at the fan forum, way too many of our backline butchered the ball, that lead to easy scores for the opposition. That was our major issue, IMO. As I've mentioned before, I can't recall a time in the last 20 years, that we've had so few bull-butchers on our list. If your kicking it to a teammate, the opposition doesn't have the ball. I think this'll suit more how Bucks wants us to play. As many have mentioned, I don't think any player we've lost makes our best 22 a worse team in 2017. It hurts our depth.

Most of the good teams have moved to a mobile backline, with many undersized mediums playing KD. Forward lines of many of the good sides play just the 2 talls, with one of those the back up ruck.

Our depth in the tall department has taken a hit, no doubt but Keeffe, IMO, will easily replace Brown or Frost in time. IMO, Dunn, will be an upgrade on both. Query a still on what Marsh does, but Goldy hardly played this year, so there's another 3rd tall depth player. Really hoping to see Scharenberg hit the ground running. If he can find his feet quickly, he'll be straight into the best 22.

Up forward, I think we'll play Darcy and Mayne with one of Cox/White as the 3rd tall/back up ruck with 3 smalls, hopefully a fit Elliott, Fasolo and WHE. Little to no depth in the tall forward/ruck stocks, so any injury will see a need to play a slightly different style. I'm quite bullish on WHE. GWS would hate trading with us because outside of Golds (appeared part of the Treloar deal), Adams, WHE and Treloar all appeared to be required players, hence the rice we paid. Marchbank to carlton in the same boat but of the others GWS appear to have just punted guys they no longer wanted.

While I would have liked to have done better in each trade, my only real disappointment for the trade period was not being able to upgrade pick 28 to an early 20's pick and taking the f/s bid right out of the equation. As it stands, I think pick 28 will end up being used at pick 29 because GWS will want Setterfield and Perryman who'll both go before our pick but they only have pick 15. If we can pick up one of Snoops KD types (Brennan Cox or Jordan Ridley) for pick 28/29, that'll give us that developing KD.

 

[Anzacday]

Just for clarity, wasn't me it was Fly

Oops sorry Fly

 

[Snoop Dog]

Aside from one of Brown/Frost none of the players who have departed will help us going forward, but our depth has been affected. Brown/Frost play a limited, but important role at least in the short term.

My concern as evidenced by getting Dunn at the last minute is we lacked forward planning. None of the departures done much last season either and it seems we left it one year too long to move them on. Buy low, sell high type of thing.

While our best 22 wasn't as known last offseason and Cox and Smith came on more than expected the club should have been more prepared to back in the likes of Ramsay and Moore locking in a core group and cutting deeper outside of that. For example I thought at the time Frost should have been moved on. I understand we tried to trade Witts and he refused, but a first for Cloke and a second or third for Williams basically would have equaled Treloar and this greater ruthlessness would have placed us in stronger trade/draft position and given more direction to last season as we wouldn't have spent the year trying to find and settle on our best 22.

Dont get me started I got howled down for suggesting Witts be traded last year(and the year before). He was always going to lose currency this year. Re Cloke it was a dumb move. Club should have asked him to renegotiate the deal in line with what he did with Dogs and persisted for one more year. The $250k wouldnt have been a salary cap issue. More likely to get a game with us then the Dogs. If he can get a game / play well at Dogs and not us its a sad indictment on Buckley and Co.

 

[Lore]

Oops sorry Fly

No worries guys. DrMike

 

[Snoop Dog]

Unfortunately you missed the future second they got back from GWS. If we were to base the entire deal on 2016 ladder positions they landed the three players players for the equivalent of pick 18 which was huge unders, IMO, considering we effectively gave up a slightly worse pick for WHE...

FWIW its also worth remembering they got that Geelong first effectively for Touhy which is just brilliant work for mine!

spot on

 

[Snoop Dog]

The direction is the worry. I can buy that we wanted to cut the backline butchers at any price, I'm fine with that. We can all see the real lack of talls on our list, but you get the feeling Dekka is just as likely to use #28 on a bullocking inside mid. Yet another one. If it is used on anything other than a key position prospect, then the whole place has gone mad.

Surely not. Already have to many inside mids on the list. Thomas, Sier, Wills and Greenwood are all outside my 22. Granted Wills should be in but they have so many. Has to be a key defender or forward.

 

[Scodog10]

Nah they passed on that future second straight to Hawthorn for their third and fourth rounders plus some later picks.

So effectively they swapped Geelongs future first plus their own third fourth rounders for Marchbank and Pickett plus Hawthorns later third and fourth rounds

They're seperate deals that make up one big movement.

No matter which way you cut it they traded out Touhy and their 2017 2nd round pick and with the associated moves brought in the following players.

Pickett, Marchbank, Smedts and Palmer which is a huge win v WHE for 2017 2nd. I hate seeing Carlton walk away well from a trade perspective, but damn I have to hand it to them on this one!

 

[4#Didak#4]

Dont get me started I got howled down for suggesting Witts be traded last year(and the year before). He was always going to lose currency this year. Re Cloke it was a dumb move. Club should have asked him to renegotiate the deal in line with what he did with Dogs and persisted for one more year. The $250k wouldnt have been a salary cap issue. More likely to get a game with us then the Dogs. If he can get a game / play well at Dogs and not us its a sad indictment on Buckley and Co.

With Cloke and renegotiating his contract, that is good in theory but can you imagine how those negotiations would have been like. There is no way he would have halved his contract and stayed (not on David's watch anyway!). The only time reducing his contract came up was when he realised it was an obstacle to leaving.

I think he has been given a bit of a shock as to how devalued he has become internally and externally. I do not think there was a chance of him playing for less dollars for us. The club really needed to decide whether they wanted a $500k* player with that output or use that elsewhere, Cloke voiding his contract was an opportunity too good to refuse.

In reality he is not going to be the difference between a flag or not in 2017. He would have left for nothing as FA at the end of 2017 anyway, so why spend $500k on that if you don't have to.

Having said that it was handled poorly by both Cloke (his management at least) & the club. It could have been managed better so that he went to a club where he will get opportunities & dollars and we get better trade value. However it all went to poo pretty quickly and I am disappointed how it was handled.



*$500k is purely a guess

 

[dunno4]

I actually think the comments on the AFL website in the sliding doors article sums up our trade period perfectly. You trade some OK players out, you trade some OK players in, you've had an OK trade period.

 

[good4footy]

I actually think the comments on the AFL website in the sliding doors article sums up our trade period perfectly. You trade some OK players out, you trade some OK players in, you've had an OK trade period.

We traded two players in (Wells & WHE) that I believe are better than any of the ones we traded out. The issue for us is the value we got for those we traded out that prevented us moving ourselves into the first round of the draft.

Forget the players that have gone as they were adding nearly nothing going forward, unfortunately they also added nothing on the way out (the draft) and that is what hurts.

 

[Lethal06]

It is ironic that Nathan Buckley, one of the greatest kickers of a footy of all time, has been hamstrung with a list clogged up with blokes who either can't hit the side of a barn or can't kick over a jam tin. A coach will naturally want to shape a team to his own style/philosophy but the combo in horrible kicks and a cursed run of injuries has largely denied Bucks that opportunity. This off-season we have finally, belatedly, hit the list reset button. Two years late but better late than never. The departures of Cloke, Toovey, Macaffer, Brown, Williams, Goodyear, Gault and Frost won't hurt us one iota. Some of them might have been much-loved but realistically all are has-beens or ball-butchers. That's eight list-cloggers all gone! Hopefully Blair doesn't put pen to paper and we can add him to the list of departures too. Mayne, Greenwood and Crisp can all play his role to a much higher standard. WHE is a gem. Much more upside than Aish, IMO. He can run the ball like Treloar. Everyone coming into the squad can actually kick a football properly! Hallelujah!

The dead-wood has been aggressively pruned out and we now have the highest skilled list in a long, long time. Importantly, its now a list that Bucks should be able to get to implement his preferred fast, skillful, high-pressure game plan. Exciting times!

 

[DaVe86]

The direction is the worry. I can buy that we wanted to cut the backline butchers at any price, I'm fine with that. We can all see the real lack of talls on our list, but you get the feeling Dekka is just as likely to use #28 on a bullocking inside mid. Yet another one. If it is used on anything other than a key position prospect, then the whole place has gone mad.

There probably isn't going to be a lot available at 28, although Snoop will be better placed to comment.

I think we'll ultimately go best available.

 

[Apex36]

Yeah in my 30 I have Cox upgraded so if you upgrade Keefe as well that is 31. Add WHE, Mayne, Dunn and Wells gets us 35. From there I think we will add 4 from the National Draft to get to 39 and have 5 on the rookie list. 3 of those rookie spots will be Smith, Thomas and at this stage Gault but surely Gault goes doesnt he?

Also wonder if Oxley goes.

Wouldn't even be surprised if we ran with 38 seniors. pick 28, Brown and Daicos. 6 Rookies. It would fit in withthe narrative that Collingwood is banking space in their TPP this year to go after a big target next year.

 

[Roverjg]

I calmed down a bit overnight and resolved my real frustration lay in the trading strategy and not the players shown the door.

None of the players we released / quit bar Jono Marsh were that important to us. Marsh is undoubtedly a loss.

Witts - Pies were offered an early 2nd round pick last year for him and turned it down. This year effectively pick 37. From previous trade examples you can slice it whichever way you want but its a poor return for probably the best ruck not getting a senior game in the AFL. That pick 26 should have been targetted and required us to give something back if need be.

Frost - Not a best 22 player and some real flaws in his game. In effect we got pick 47. For mine thats low and previous examples tend to support. Would have much rathered trade our 28 for their 22. Picks value wise better for Brisbane, we go higher in the draft and its a pick we know wont be used on the F/S boys. Lions had the wood on us as could get him in PSD but thats an issue in itself.

Brown - Cant intercept mark and he cant kick or provide run but to not even some how organise a trade for him was odd. Not sure what happened clearly wanted to do the right thing by him but strange he is in the leadership group and it ends the way it did.

Williams was behind Sinclair, Ramsay and Smith and hangs out with the wrong crowd and the coach doesnt like it. But seriously pick 105? Just delist the bloke. Clearly Pies were going to delist him anyway and obviously just said 'have him'. 2 years ago this guy was flying.

Cloke I am still a bit sore about. Word is Collingwood were offered a top 15 pick for him last year and turned it back. If he was prepared to go to Dogs and a harder outfit to get into then staggered he wouldnt have said to Pies that he would give up last year of his contract for a 2-3 year deal with Pies on low money and incentives. He obviously just wanted out / club wanted him out. Along with Brown its sad the good clubmen got punted. To be fair once Lewis went for pick 50 or whatever it was it reduced Clokes value enormously so probably cant complain.

Hoskin-Elliott was staggered that was a 2nd round. We took the blokes salary on and paid a Rd 2 for a kid that barely got a game this last 2 years. Compare that to what we got for Frost and Witts. Should have been a 3rd round.

Dunn. If we are prepared to just offer up Williams for a nothing pick then why would we actually pay 'points' for Dunn. Staggering......


So all in in all you really only lose Marsh from your best 22 and you get in 2 blokes who definately slot in and 2 that are on the fringes. I guess from that angle ok but I really think it should have been better than what it was.

Just curious Snoop. But how much (if any) do you think Eddie's negative comments throughout the year about Brisbane, Sydney, and wanting to ban GWS from the draft for two years hurt us in this year's draft?
We again got screwed over by GWS, particularly when SOS got multiple players for the cost of admittance to a garage sale. I can't help but feel that animosity towards us and Eddie over Treloar trade last year and Eddie's ongoing sniping of the Northern States Teams will continue to be an albatross around our neck.

Personally I am glad Cloke has gone. I wanted to trade him last year whilst he/we still had currency. You can pass one poor year off, but three...

 

[frizzle]

They're seperate deals that make up one big movement.

No matter which way you cut it they traded out Touhy and their 2017 2nd round pick and with the associated moves brought in the following players.

Pickett, Marchbank, Smedts and Palmer which is a huge win v WHE for 2017 2nd. I hate seeing Carlton walk away well from a trade perspective, but damn I have to hand it to them on this one!

Smedts & Palmer are meh, wouldn't want either of them at the Pies. But the other 2 young blokes have plenty of upside.

 

[frizzle]

Just curious Snoop. But how much (if any) do you think Eddie's negative comments throughout the year about Brisbane, Sydney, and wanting to ban GWS from the draft for two years hurt us in this year's draft?
We again got screwed over by GWS, particularly when SOS got multiple players for the cost of admittance to a garage sale. I can't help but feel that animosity towards us and Eddie over Treloar trade last year and Eddie's ongoing sniping of the Northern States Teams will continue to be an albatross around our neck.

Personally I am glad Cloke has gone. I wanted to trade him last year whilst he/we still had currency. You can pass one poor year off, but three...

Certainly doesn't do us any favours does it?

 

[Soups]

Smedts & Palmer are meh, wouldn't want either of them at the Pies. But the other 2 young blokes have plenty of upside.

Both questionable people especially Palmer. I would be furious if we took those two.

 

[TW Sherrin]

The direction of the club is pretty clear to me. Get rid of all the poor ball users. Irrespective of stats provided at the fan forum, way too many of our backline butchered the ball, that lead to easy scores for the opposition. That was our major issue, IMO. As I've mentioned before, I can't recall a time in the last 20 years, that we've had so few bull-butchers on our list. If your kicking it to a teammate, the opposition doesn't have the ball. I think this'll suit more how Bucks wants us to play. As many have mentioned, I don't think any player we've lost makes our best 22 a worse team in 2017. It hurts our depth.

Most of the good teams have moved to a mobile backline, with many undersized mediums playing KD. Forward lines of many of the good sides play just the 2 talls, with one of those the back up ruck.

I agree. we bust our ass to win the ball and then turn it over exposing everyone making position. going smaller behind the ball will also help push up and pressure the ball. we are years behind on this strategy.

 

[Snoop Dog]

We traded two players in (Wells & WHE) that I believe are better than any of the ones we traded out. The issue for us is the value we got for those we traded out that prevented us moving ourselves into the first round of the draft.

Forget the players that have gone as they were adding nearly nothing going forward, unfortunately they also added nothing on the way out (the draft) and that is what hurts.

yeah i agree with you.

at the end of the day you dont recruit a player in on the basis you think they will play 10 games. clearly with wells they have done their homework and they think he is fine to play. Also re the contract we dont know how much is fixed and variable and hence speculating on value can be misleading.

You are right re Will and again the club clearly value highly.

Out of the who group they are the two best players.

 

[Snoop Dog]

It is ironic that Nathan Buckley, one of the greatest kickers of a footy of all time, has been hamstrung with a list clogged up with blokes who either can't hit the side of a barn or can't kick over a jam tin. A coach will naturally want to shape a team to his own style/philosophy but the combo in horrible kicks and a cursed run of injuries has largely denied Bucks that opportunity. This off-season we have finally, belatedly, hit the list reset button. Two years late but better late than never. The departures of Cloke, Toovey, Macaffer, Brown, Williams and Frost won't hurt us one iota. They might have been much-loved but realistically all are has-beens or ball-butchers. That's six list-cloggers all gone! Hopefully Blair doesn't put pen to paper and we can add him to the list of departures too. Mayne, Greenwood and Crisp can all play his role to a much higher standard. WHE is a gem. Much more upside than Aish, IMO. He can run the ball like Treloar. Everyone coming into the squad can actually kick a football properly! Hallelujah!

The dead-wood has been aggressively pruned out and we now have the highest skilled list in a long, long time. Importantly, its now a list that Bucks should be able to get to implement his preferred fast, skillful, high-pressure game plan. Exciting times!

Good perspective.

Who on the list do we have now that are;

Average to poor ball users - Greenwood, Sinclair, de Goey, Wills. JDG improving and Sinclair best is fine. Jury still out on Wills for me.

Slow - Greenwood & Langdon. Langdon is a good intercept player though.

Need to win more ball - WHE, Oxley, Aish & Varcoe. This group bar Oxley has some big ticks in other areas though.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Wouldn't even be surprised if we ran with 38 seniors. pick 28, Brown and Daicos. 6 Rookies. It would fit in withthe narrative that Collingwood is banking space in their TPP this year to go after a big target next year.

yeah it would but it would make their drafting even more diabolical.

am told we are into a big KPF for next year.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Just curious Snoop. But how much (if any) do you think Eddie's negative comments throughout the year about Brisbane, Sydney, and wanting to ban GWS from the draft for two years hurt us in this year's draft?
We again got screwed over by GWS, particularly when SOS got multiple players for the cost of admittance to a garage sale. I can't help but feel that animosity towards us and Eddie over Treloar trade last year and Eddie's ongoing sniping of the Northern States Teams will continue to be an albatross around our neck.

Personally I am glad Cloke has gone. I wanted to trade him last year whilst he/we still had currency. You can pass one poor year off, but three...

A huge impact.

 

[good4footy]

yeah i agree with you.

at the end of the day you dont recruit a player in on the basis you think they will play 10 games. clearly with wells they have done their homework and they think he is fine to play. Also re the contract we dont know how much is fixed and variable and hence speculating on value can be misleading.

You are right re Will and again the club clearly value highly.

Out of the who group they are the two best players.

My disappointment is based on what we got for those that went out. I really wanted us to trade up into the first round and what we got with what was going out didn't allow us to do that.

I really don't have a problem with what came in as long as we don't have any salary issues next year if going for high profile KP.

 

[jdpie]

yeah it would but it would make their drafting even more diabolical.

am told we are into a big KPF for next year.

Next year being end of 2017 ??