So, how did we do in the Draft?

Turky

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We made a decision to go against choosing higher rated players to choose a lower rated player for some, as yet, unexplained reason.

Collingwood took the exact opposition position.

There is a measurable here and that is the outcome of those choices for both sides.

Assuming there is no death or disability; Aish, Schareberg & Sheed will be AFL players if, say, Aish becomes a star and Sheed a plodder we cocked up ....
We also managed to completely take home sickness out of the equation, it doesn't matter how good that player is if he goes to another club there's no use . And we probably did not expect Aisha and Scharenberg to drop out of the top 5. And last time I checked I believe Sheed won the Larke medal where Aish and Scharenberg did not. And perhaps it was a tactical decision for the future structural integrity of the squad that a pure outside midfielder (Aish) and a swing man (Scharenberg) cannot. There's a lot of aspects regarding what the right choice was. So it's almost impossible to judge how now. Although Aish and Scharenberg may enjoy Victoria and Brisbane who's to say they wouldn't absolutely hate Perth? My whole extended family (grandparents, uncles and cousins) absolutely HATE W.A. But quite enjoy Queensland and other places (ironically they are also South Aussies). It's almost impossible to choose who was a better pick either way, so even if one player does then out better it could be because they are more of a structural necessity to their club or their home sickness varies.


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We also managed to completely take home sickness out of the equation, it doesn't matter how good that player is if he goes to another club there's no use . And we probably did not expect Aisha and Scharenberg to drop out of the top 5. And last time I checked I believe Sheed won the Larke medal where Aish and Scharenberg did not. And perhaps it was a tactical decision for the future structural integrity of the squad that a pure outside midfielder (Aish) and a swing man (Scharenberg) cannot. There's a lot of aspects regarding what the right choice was. So it's almost impossible to judge how now. Although Aish and Scharenberg may enjoy Victoria and Brisbane who's to say they wouldn't absolutely hate Perth? My whole extended family (grandparents, uncles and cousins) absolutely HATE W.A. But quite enjoy Queensland and other places (ironically they are also South Aussies). It's almost impossible to choose who was a better pick either way, so even if one player does then out better it could be because they are more of a structural necessity to their club or their home sickness varies.


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I agree Turky. A player may turn out to be the best player of his draft, but it was not necessarily a mistake for a club to overlook drafting him in favour of another player if the other player provides skills/attributes/qualities that are more needed by the club at that point in time. If he goes on to have a successful career, and strengthens the team's overall performance, then I think it would be fair to say the club made a smart drafting choice, even if the other player overlooked has a better individual career.

There are also other things that clubs would take into consideration, such as character and attitude, and potential go home factors, and I would imagine that some selections would be made in favour of a very good player with a great character and attitude, over a great player with questionable attitude. So, I think it is a bit simplistic to think that it is always the right thing to take the best rated player.

These ratings are very subjective anyway, and as you point out Sheed won the Larke Medal playing against others who were drafted higher than him. I saw one ranking of the top 50 draft candidates that rated Sheed as No 2, so if that assessment holds good, we actually drafted very cleverly and got a real steal. At this point though it is way too soon to make any definitive assessment of this year's draft, when they have not even played a game.
 

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I agree Turky. A player may turn out to be the best player of his draft, but it was not necessarily a mistake for a club to overlook drafting him in favour of another player if the other player provides skills/attributes/qualities that are more needed by the club at that point in time. If he goes on to have a successful career, and strengthens the team's overall performance, then I think it would be fair to say the club made a smart drafting choice, even if the other player overlooked has a better individual career.

There are also other things that clubs would take into consideration, such as character and attitude, and potential go home factors, and I would imagine that some selections would be made in favour of a very good player with a great character and attitude, over a great player with questionable attitude. So, I think it is a bit simplistic to think that it is always the right thing to take the best rated player.

These ratings are very subjective anyway, and as you point out Sheed won the Larke Medal playing against others who were drafted higher than him. I saw one ranking of the top 50 draft candidates that rated Sheed as No 2, so if that assessment holds good, we actually drafted very cleverly and got a real steal. At this point though it is way too soon to make any definitive assessment of this year's draft, when they have not even played a game.
People are seriously using the Larke Medal as the basis for anything?

The reality is we traded down to get a guy that likely was available at 16 or 17 when we could have had guys rated at 2-4....

It MIGHT work out but arguing that we might have taken a guy that might get homesick, maybe, is frankly the height of stupidity ... although I accept after Wooshas management of culture, leading to Judd's departure and his management of Ebert, leading to his departure I somewhat get the concern. But the management cancer is now gone.. So best available should be our approach and we didn't do that per everyone but us ...

But yes, there is no shortage of folk who will ignore logic and will back the club 109% no matter what ... So Yep
 

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I agree Turky. A player may turn out to be the best player of his draft, but it was not necessarily a mistake for a club to overlook drafting him in favour of another player if the other player provides skills/attributes/qualities that are more needed by the club at that point in time. If he goes on to have a successful career, and strengthens the team's overall performance, then I think it would be fair to say the club made a smart drafting choice, even if the other player overlooked has a better individual career.

There are also other things that clubs would take into consideration, such as character and attitude, and potential go home factors, and I would imagine that some selections would be made in favour of a very good player with a great character and attitude, over a great player with questionable attitude. So, I think it is a bit simplistic to think that it is always the right thing to take the best rated player.

These ratings are very subjective anyway, and as you point out Sheed won the Larke Medal playing against others who were drafted higher than him. I saw one ranking of the top 50 draft candidates that rated Sheed as No 2, so if that assessment holds good, we actually drafted very cleverly and got a real steal. At this point though it is way too soon to make any definitive assessment of this year's draft, when they have not even played a game.
People are seriously using the Larke Medal as the basis for anything?

The reality is we traded down to get a guy that likely was available at 16 or 17 when we could have had guys rated at 2-4....

It MIGHT work out but arguing that we might have taken a guy that might get homesick, maybe, is frankly the height of stupidity ... although I accept after Wooshas management of culture, leading to Judd's departure and his management of Ebert, leading to his departure I somewhat get the concern. But the management cancer is now gone.. So best available should be our approach and we didn't do that per everyone but us ...

But yes, there is no shortage of folk who will ignore logic and will back the club 109% no matter what ... So Yep
 

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People are seriously using the Larke Medal as the basis for anything?

The reality is we traded down to get a guy that likely was available at 16 or 17 when we could have had guys rated at 2-4....

It MIGHT work out but arguing that we might have taken a guy that might get homesick, maybe, is frankly the height of stupidity ... although I accept after Wooshas management of culture, leading to Judd's departure and his management of Ebert, leading to his departure I somewhat get the concern. But the management cancer is now gone.. So best available should be our approach and we didn't do that per everyone but us ...

But yes, there is no shortage of folk who will ignore logic and will back the club 109% no matter what ... So Yep
Over a bigfooty troll that says, on a subjective speculative numbering system, we should take the guy with the lowest possible number, ahead of the guy the drafting team thinks is the best player for the club?
 

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Over a bigfooty troll that says, on a subjective speculative numbering system, we should take the guy with the lowest possible number, ahead of the guy the drafting team thinks is the best player for the club?
Tom Boyd was rated 1....

You dispute that?

Per that approach, Aish was 2-4. Scharenberg same.

Sheed wasn't.

Sure our club might have special gifts but based on what? We've been a middling draft side over the journey for some time.

The fact you guys struggle to even concede such obvious stuff is testament to that fact that I'm doing you a favour bothering to indulge your abjectly poor logic and comprehension ...

:)
 

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Over a bigfooty troll that says, on a subjective speculative numbering system, we should take the guy with the lowest possible number, ahead of the guy the drafting team thinks is the best player for the club?
Mate you're online, if you're any sort of substantive human being you'd address being called ....

I will actually require logic and consideration of the facts ... I understand that may be outside your comfort zone :)
 

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People are seriously using the Larke Medal as the basis for anything?
Yet you've parroted on about Aish being a dual SANFL premiership player.

The reality is we traded down to get a guy that likely was available at 16 or 17 when we could have had guys rated at 2-4....
Different clubs have different rankings. Aish or Scharenberg both fell for reasons, and there was no guarantee Sheed would have lasted to 16-17. You're just speculating.

All the talk has been about how even the draft was from around pick 2 to pick 12 or so. There wasn't some clear consensus that West Coast ignored.
 
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People are seriously using the Larke Medal as the basis for anything?

The reality is we traded down to get a guy that likely was available at 16 or 17 when we could have had guys rated at 2-4....

It MIGHT work out but arguing that we might have taken a guy that might get homesick, maybe, is frankly the height of stupidity ... although I accept after Wooshas management of culture, leading to Judd's departure and his management of Ebert, leading to his departure I somewhat get the concern. But the management cancer is now gone.. So best available should be our approach and we didn't do that per everyone but us ...

But yes, there is no shortage of folk who will ignore logic and will back the club 109% no matter what ... So Yep
In time you may well turn out to be correct in your assessment of who is the best player and be vindicated in your belief we chose the wrong player, and yet again you can exalt in your superior knowledge and judgement. However at this point in time it is far from a proven fact and, despite your unequivocal assertions, simply a speculative opinion.

Personally I would be much more willing to consider the merits of your opinion if you could ever express one without the need to simultaneously belittle, insult and/or ridicule those who have the temerity to offer a different opinion to you.
 

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Mate you're online, if you're any sort of substantive human being you'd address being called ....

I will actually require logic and consideration of the facts ... I understand that may be outside your comfort zone :)
Well I note in the Draft Thread that a very considered opinion on both Sheed and Aish that placed Sheed ahead of Aish you chose to ignore.

In fact after I posted these independent quotes you went very silent and chose not to counter any of the points raised. For someone who claims they are so knowledgeable I find it interesting that as soon as someone with a considered opinion challenges yours you go missing.

The reality is no one will know for most likely 2>3 years if anyone one player is better than another so again I say we will just have to wait and see won't we.

Unfortunately I'm sure the first time Sheeds makes a poor kick or makes a poor decision in the preseason cup you will be on here with your 'broken record' opinion bleating on how we should have taken Aish instead.:cool:
 

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happy to get Sheed will be a very good player for wce , his game v vic country was outstanding he stood tall and lead the wa team to a nail biting 3 pt win ..

Aish from reports will be a 200 gamer player and no doubt a very good one but things have fallen into place nicely for Vozza now that the dust has settled..Sheed ,Yeo and Karpany is a winner for me as opposed to just Aish and Yeo if pk 6 trade exchange had not happened ..
 

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Yet you've parroted on about Aish being a dual SANFL premiership player.



Different clubs have different rankings. Aish or Scharenberg both fell for reasons, and there was no guarantee Sheed would have lasted to 16-17. You're just speculating.

All the talk has been about how even the draft was from around pick 2 to pick 12 or so. There wasn't some clear consensus that West Coast ignored.
For a guy who occasionally makes a decent point you talk a fair but of nonsense.

All the talk was that there were 4-5 players that were better than the rest and then a bunch of event rated players. A couple of the evenly rated players were late bolters, as happens from time to time, and a couple of players slipped based on the usual "late mail" involving either injury or over thinking.

Aish & Scharenberg were rated in the 4-5 "better" group by most, including Hine, who traded up to try and get them. We decided the guy we liked would be available at 11 and we took a punt no-one else would take him. Whether he would have lasted past 13 is neither here nor there - the point is he was rated lower by most (all?) clubs than the 2 I mentioned.

I have repeatedly said it MIGHT work out but it's a punt for a lower rated player.

My point on Aish re the Premiership side is he's played v men in 2 SANFL premierships and been in the best on in 1 of those. This was in response to folk like you suggesting he might struggle against AFL players based, in part, on body size. Fairly simple point. Sheed at WAFL level has been less distinguished and, from a Subi supporters perspective, pretty meh...

You can try and reset the Sheed decision on whatever terms you want but it doesn't alter the fact that players more highly rated by most were available at "our" pick 6. Whether we have cocked up will be revealed in time - but those arguing that we've already done good per that trade are hugely premature ....
 

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In time you may well turn out to be correct in your assessment of who is the best player and be vindicated in your belief we chose the wrong player, and yet again you can exalt in your superior knowledge and judgement. However at this point in time it is far from a proven fact and, despite your unequivocal assertions, simply a speculative opinion.

Personally I would be much more willing to consider the merits of your opinion if you could ever express one without the need to simultaneously belittle, insult and/or ridicule those who have the temerity to offer a different opinion to you.
I'm aware that some rate manners above substance. It's one reason why the world is full of talentless brownnoses in so many important roles.

Your preference for the pleasantly mediocre is noted :)
 

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It would have been interesting if we had kept 6 and drafted Sheed over Aish and seen whether peoples perceptions were different. I suspect the thought of being able to have had Aish is more attractive to some than the 'hurt' they would have felt if we had actually overlooked him for Sheed. The whole 'you always want what you cant have' mentality I think has come into play with some people.

I personally would have taken Sheed over Aish at 6. The WA factor getting him over the line in this age of free agency. I think our recruiters may have felt the same.
 

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Well I note in the Draft Thread that a very considered opinion on both Sheed and Aish that placed Sheed ahead of Aish you chose to ignore.

In fact after I posted these independent quotes you went very silent and chose not to counter any of the points raised. For someone who claims they are so knowledgeable I find it interesting that as soon as someone with a considered opinion challenges yours you go missing.

The reality is no one will know for most likely 2>3 years if anyone one player is better than another so again I say we will just have to wait and see won't we.

Unfortunately I'm sure the first time Sheeds makes a poor kick or makes a poor decision in the preseason cup you will be on here with your 'broken record' opinion bleating on how we should have taken Aish instead.:cool:
What an odd post.

I've vigorously argued why I would have picked Aish. Several have disagreed and expressed counter views. Several have posted the thoughts of others in support of their arguments. I've countered.

The fact I didn't restate the same argument in relation to your post is neither here nor there.

I wish Sheed well and hope we nailed the pick. But if either of the 2 sliders (to 6&7) end up being elite star level talents and Sheed turns into just another player then yes, I'll reserve the right to question our recruiting.

If on the other hand the reverse is true then kudos to our recruiters. The bookies wouldn't have us as favourites to win at this stage though ... We've gambled with the trade down.
 

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It would have been interesting if we had kept 6 and drafted Sheed over Aish and seen whether peoples perceptions were different. I suspect the thought of being able to have had Aish is more attractive to some than the hurt they would feel if we had actually overlooked him for Sheed. The whole 'you always want what you cant have' mentality I think has come into play with some people.

I personally would have taken Sheed over Aish at 6. The WA factor getting him over the line in this age of free agency.
That may be the issue with some. I've argued that the whole trade down strategy is fine provided we don't miss an Aish at 6. The chance of a Rich type slider seemed minimal at trade time but rapidly escalated after that.

If we'd picked Sheed over Aish/Scharenberg having retained 6 we'd be generally viewed as crazy Vozzos who pick WA kids over more talented interstaters ... which is fine IF we get it right...

But Sheed over those two would be "brave" and would rightly be criticised if hindsight proved it foolish bravery ..
 
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I'm aware that some rate manners above substance. It's one reason why the world is full of talentless brownnoses in so many important roles.

Your preference for the pleasantly mediocre is noted :)
I do not think that the two things are mutually exclusive. It is perfectly possible, and even desirable, to offer an opinion of substance without the need to resort to rudeness and disrespect. Conversely because one chooses to express an opposing opinion with courtesy and civility does not necessarily mean that one is brown nosing, or accepting of mediocrity.

The fact that you so often choose to offer your substantial opinions in such a rude and disrespectful manner is merely an indication of your choice to be deliberately provocative and antagonistic for your own enjoyment, rather than of your superiority.
 

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For a guy who occasionally makes a decent point you talk a fair but of nonsense.

All the talk was that there were 4-5 players that were better than the rest and then a bunch of event rated players. A couple of the evenly rated players were late bolters, as happens from time to time, and a couple of players slipped based on the usual "late mail" involving either injury or over thinking.

Aish & Scharenberg were rated in the 4-5 "better" group by most, including Hine, who traded up to try and get them. We decided the guy we liked would be available at 11 and we took a punt no-one else would take him. Whether he would have lasted past 13 is neither here nor there - the point is he was rated lower by most (all?) clubs than the 2 I mentioned.

I have repeatedly said it MIGHT work out but it's a punt for a lower rated player.

My point on Aish re the Premiership side is he's played v men in 2 SANFL premierships and been in the best on in 1 of those. This was in response to folk like you suggesting he might struggle against AFL players based, in part, on body size. Fairly simple point. Sheed at WAFL level has been less distinguished and, from a Subi supporters perspective, pretty meh...

You can try and reset the Sheed decision on whatever terms you want but it doesn't alter the fact that players more highly rated by most were available at "our" pick 6. Whether we have cocked up will be revealed in time - but those arguing that we've already done good per that trade are hugely premature ....
Head in sand sort of stuff. Numerous recruiters commented on the evenness of the first round and the lack of players proving their distinction. Probably because of the lack of well rounded midfielders and key forwards.

Sheed hasn't had a decent crack at League football. Aish spent two years front running in the premiership side, it wasn't surprise that his disposal count dried up during the 2013 champs. He just can't win his own ball and that's why he fell.

As for Scharenberg he's shown great utility for his age, but he's not a midfielder. Given that taller players tend to develop later it begs the question as to where he'll sit in the scheme of things. Could be a champion of the game given his ability to marshall a defensive unit. Is he a high production match winner. Doubtful.

Bitch about Salem if you're going to bitch about any of the four players we overlooked.
 

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I do not think that the two things are mutually exclusive. It is perfectly possible, and even desirable, to offer an opinion of substance without the need to resort to rudeness and disrespect. Conversely because one chooses to express an opposing opinion with courtesy and civility does not necessarily mean that one is brown nosing, or accepting of mediocrity.

The fact that you so often choose to offer your substantial opinions in such a rude and disrespectful manner is merely an indication of your choice to be deliberately provocative and antagonistic for your own enjoyment, rather than of your superiority.
Or it's just the reasonable response of a person who suffers fools badly ....

That said, in my experience, provoking often gets to the crux of a debate more quickly. :)
 

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Head in sand sort of stuff. Numerous recruiters commented on the evenness of the first round and the lack of players proving their distinction. Probably because of the lack of well rounded midfielders and key forwards.

Sheed hasn't had a decent crack at League football. Aish spent two years front running in the premiership side, it was surprise that his disposal count dried up during the 2013 champs. He just can't win his own ball and that's why he fell.

As for Scharenberg he's shown great utility for his age, but he's not a midfielder. Given that taller players tend to develop later it begs the question as to where he'll sit in the scheme of things. Could be a champion of the game given his ability to marshall a defensive unit. Is he a high production match winner. Doubtful.

Bitch about Salem if you're going to bitch about any of the four players we overlooked.
You're persistent, I'll give you that.

Wrong, missing the point and refusing to concede that those 2 were higher rated despite all the evidence ... although when you agree he was a slider at 7 you're kinda conceding my point about where he was rated.

By comparison Sheed was a marginal reach at 11 ...

In really simple terms Aish was rated higher by most. :)
 
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Or it's just the reasonable response of a person who suffers fools badly ....

That said, in my experience, provoking often gets to the crux of a debate more quickly. :)
I will agree that you appear to suffer those you consider fools badly. Whether or not your rudeness and disrespect is a reasonable response is another question.
 

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I will agree that you appear to suffer those you consider fools badly. Whether or not your rudeness and disrespect is a reasonable response is another question.
So we're back to manners. Awesome.

Have a lovely day.... wear slip-ons they are easier for folk like yourself :)
 

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You're persistent, I'll give you that.

Wrong, missing the point and refusing to concede that those 2 were higher rated despite all the evidence ... although when you agree he was a slider at 7 you're kinda conceding my point about where he was rated.

By comparison Sheed was a marginal reach at 11 ...

In really simple terms Aish was rated higher by most. :)
Just like Rich was rated higher than Sidebottom, Shuey, Redden, Beams, Rockliff, Hannebery, Sloane ect

Hasn't stopped these guys from being higher production players at the highest level.
 

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Just like Rich was rated higher than Sidebottom, Shuey, Redden, Beams, Rockliff, Hannebery, Sloane ect

Hasn't stopped these guys from being higher production players at the highest level.
Again missing the point.

I have said it MIGHT work out. But it's a punt and the odds favour the more highly rated...

Really not that complicated EH ...
 
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