Politics So I guess when the sh*t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

Carringbush2010

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Just a pity it took the biggest economic crisis since the Great Depression to finally spur them into action.

And a further pity that as we ease some restrictions and look for a way forward, early signs are they haven’t leaned a damn thing from it.
Hard to say, there are some good things from this quasi socialism situation. I'll agree our capitalist model has been 'hijacked' for want of a better word but for mine I'd still rather our democratic liberal society we had previous to covid.

And yes it seems as restrictions easy political discussion has lost its bipartisanship.
 

Gethelred

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I'm willing to bet we'll return to the society pre covid, hopefully with some perspective and some efficiency (for want of a better word).
But what does that look like to you? Does it feature the increased levels of Newstart? How much imposition over our freedom of movement will make sense to you, if a vaccine isn't found?

Simply a return to the status quo may not be possible. Outline precisely what you want to have happen, and what you'd be willing to exchange to get there. If it's freedom of action and movement but the coronavirus outbreak worldwide isn't fixed, will you accept higher prices for products based on isolationist policies and a declining economy in exchange for increased freedoms within Australia's bounds?

This is the sort of question I'm posing to you, and yes I can be long winded. But this stuff is important, I can't see the world the way you do unless you tell me how you see it.
 

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Carringbush2010

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Places like Woolworths and Coles are hiring, because they're busier than normal.


So you're agreeing socialism is common sense then?
ALL models are 'common sense' in theory, problem is individuals or small groups that take advantage of the model at the expense of the greater.
 

Carringbush2010

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But what does that look like to you? Does it feature the increased levels of Newstart? How much imposition over our freedom of movement will make sense to you, if a vaccine isn't found?

Simply a return to the status quo may not be possible. Outline precisely what you want to have happen, and what you'd be willing to exchange to get there. If it's freedom of action and movement but the coronavirus outbreak worldwide isn't fixed, will you accept higher prices for products based on isolationist policies and a declining economy in exchange for increased freedoms within Australia's bounds?

This is the sort of question I'm posing to you, and yes I can be long winded. But this stuff is important, I can't see the world the way you do unless you tell me how you see it.
Gee, that's some task you've set. And really it's not what I want but more what has by and large worked well for most. My view is that by and large the society we've had previously works best for most even given all it's faults.

There'll be obvious necessary change because they're necessary, probably a somewhere in between. How it all applies to all manner of things will vary widely for also obvious reasons.

For a detailed answer you ask, would take a very long post. That would take time for me to research and think about before replying that.
 

Gethelred

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Gee, that's some task you've set. And really it's not what I want but more what has by and large worked well for most. My view is that by and large the society we've had previously works best for most even given all it's faults.

There'll be obvious necessary change because they're necessary, probably a somewhere in between. How it all applies to all manner of things will vary widely for also obvious reasons.

For a detailed answer you ask, would take a very long post. That would take time for me to research and think about before replying that.
That's fair. If you're ever in search of something to do, shoot me a pm, but otherwise no sweat.
 

Ants

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ALL models are 'common sense' in theory, problem is individuals or small groups that take advantage of the model at the expense of the greater.
No, this is wrong. For example, trickle down economics fails both in real life but also in the theory. The Laffer curve may work in theory, but not in the way it is applied by the right. The way they want to apply tax laws and justify it via the Laffer curve doesn't hold up in theory or practice.

Similarly, in the modern world I think most people would argue that PURE capitalism or communism has also been debunked as theories (beyond some sillies at either end of the spectrum believing in them).

I mean, if what you were saying is true then the neo-liberalism model should be holding up fine right now, right? If not, then that means it has flaws, and isn't based in common sense. If austerity was common sense, the countries who imposed it after the GFC would have done alright, correct?

So the idea that because something works and was obvious to put in place suddenly means "all models are common sense in theory" is just hogwash.
 

Carringbush2010

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No, this is wrong. For example, trickle down economics fails both in real life but also in the theory. The Laffer curve may work in theory, but not in the way it is applied by the right. The way they want to apply tax laws and justify it via the Laffer curve doesn't hold up in theory or practice.

Similarly, in the modern world I think most people would argue that PURE capitalism or communism has also been debunked as theories (beyond some sillies at either end of the spectrum believing in them).

I mean, if what you were saying is true then the neo-liberalism model should be holding up fine right now, right? If not, then that means it has flaws, and isn't based in common sense. If austerity was common sense, the countries who imposed it after the GFC would have done alright, correct?

So the idea that because something works and was obvious to put in place suddenly means "all models are common sense in theory" is just hogwash.
If you look deeper the intent, of any model, whatever it is will have flaws. That's ONLY because of human nature...................... there's always going to be someone(s) who exploit whatever rule or societal model is put in front of them.

PURE capitalism or communism was designed for the greater in mind but it's impossible, coz people.

The models maybe flawed but the intent of the model is not.

Yell at the people, not the intent of the model. So yeah at the beginning of thought of any model is common sense but only in theory.
 

Number37

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I doubt that.
You think people would prefer that there was no social security (Jobseeker/Jobkeeper) and no stimulus and no RB intervention?
You think we would be better off by just letting millions lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands of businesses shutting down with no govt intervention?

You either have no clue or your ideology is so f'd up it is dangerous.
 

Carringbush2010

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You think people would prefer that there was no social security (Jobseeker/Jobkeeper) and no stimulus and no RB intervention?
You think we would be better off by just letting millions lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands of businesses shutting down with no govt intervention?

You either have no clue or your ideology is so f'd up it is dangerous.
I don't know what makes you think that I think:

'You think people would prefer that there was no social security (Jobseeker/Jobkeeper) and no stimulus and no RB intervention?
You think we would be better off by just letting millions lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands of businesses shutting down with no govt intervention'

I stated, clearly, that I would think our society would return as it was before - never said exactly the same , Only a dullard would think it's going to be exact. That's captain obvious thinking.

Of course there's going to be changes, and to be honest we've never had a 'totally' socialist type restrictive lock down. Nor we've ever had an unrestrained free reign capitalist society either.

I have repeatedly stated there'll be changes, but it's clear we won't be locking down forever and the keeper and seeker payments may change. Taxes and prices will go up for the consumer and business to recoup.

You need a cuppa and lie down 37.
 

Number37

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I don't know what makes you think that I think:

'You think people would prefer that there was no social security (Jobseeker/Jobkeeper) and no stimulus and no RB intervention?
You think we would be better off by just letting millions lose their jobs and hundreds of thousands of businesses shutting down with no govt intervention'

I stated, clearly, that I would think our society would return as it was before - never said exactly the same , Only a dullard would think it's going to be exact. That's captain obvious thinking.

Of course there's going to be changes, and to be honest we've never had a 'totally' socialist type restrictive lock down. Nor we've ever had an unrestrained free reign capitalist society either.

I have repeatedly stated there'll be changes, but it's clear we won't be locking down forever and the keeper and seeker payments may change. Taxes and prices will go up for the consumer and business to recoup.

You need a cuppa and lie down 37.
Errrm, you railed against the 'socialism', I said 95% would prefer it to the alternative, which is no 'socialism'...now you want to pretend that's not what you said.

Only a dullard, alright.
 

Carringbush2010

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Errrm, you railed against the 'socialism', I said 95% would prefer it to the alternative, which is no 'socialism'...now you want to pretend that's not what you said.

Only a dullard, alright.
Ok, keep it in the schoolyard....................... I'll be exact for you then.......................

I doubt anyone would want to continue under house lock down by authoritarian measures, which by definition socialism has similarities more so than the society we were in previously.

Is that good enough for you? Take off your ideological battle and look at the discussion in context instead of pot shotting and accusing me of things which you clearly have wrong.
 

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Number37

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Ok, keep it in the schoolyard....................... I'll be exact for you then.......................

I doubt anyone would want to continue under house lock down by authoritarian measures, which by definition socialism has similarities more so than the society we were in previously.

Is that good enough for you? Take off your ideological battle and look at the discussion in context instead of pot shotting and accusing me of things which you clearly have wrong.
Oh deary me.

Would people have preferred being under lockdown or would they have preferred the alternative?

I would suggest to you, again, that 95% of people would prefer lockdown.
Anyone can understand that despite lockdown being an extreme measure, the alternative was worse.

We can infer from the actions that people took, ie obeying lockdown measures, that they preferred that to the alternative.

Ideological f-wits will continue to bleat because they're trapped by their ideological BS.

The giveaway of ideological f-wits being trapped by their ideology is that they can only view the actions of others through a prism of ideology.
When that doesn't work their only recourse is to double-down on their ideology.
Those policies were socialism, the current policies are socialism, those policies will be socialm.

People will continue to accept lockdown as long as it serves the purpose for which it was introduced.
Ideological f-wits can't understand that the purpose of lockdowns is not ideology but practicality.
 

sdfc

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Employment numbers are bullshit. Definitions are skewed as fu** since Howard.
That's a nice story but the 1 hour standard came in well before Howard and is the international definition. Consistency and the trend are the the key. The monthly numbers are a lottery but the 300k figure is odd.
 

Ants

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300k? It's a small sample so maybe they randomly came across a cluster of people who'd just gained employment.
The company I'm with still recruited their normal people for this time of year, because we're not effected by coronavirus. A number of others might be in the same way. Plus some like Coles/Woolworths, bunnings, etc. Remember, the real loss of jobs was a lot worse than 900,000 when lost hours are included.
 

sdfc

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The company I'm with still recruited their normal people for this time of year, because we're not effected by coronavirus. A number of others might be in the same way. Plus some like Coles/Woolworths, bunnings, etc. Remember, the real loss of jobs was a lot worse than 900,000 when lost hours are included.
300k is about average. Seems an odd figure given the conditions.
 

Carringbush2010

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Oh deary me.

Would people have preferred being under lockdown or would they have preferred the alternative?

I would suggest to you, again, that 95% of people would prefer lockdown.
Anyone can understand that despite lockdown being an extreme measure, the alternative was worse.

We can infer from the actions that people took, ie obeying lockdown measures, that they preferred that to the alternative.

Ideological f-wits will continue to bleat because they're trapped by their ideological BS.

The giveaway of ideological f-wits being trapped by their ideology is that they can only view the actions of others through a prism of ideology.
When that doesn't work their only recourse is to double-down on their ideology.
Those policies were socialism, the current policies are socialism, those policies will be socialm.

People will continue to accept lockdown as long as it serves the purpose for which it was introduced.
Ideological f-wits can't understand that the purpose of lockdowns is not ideology but practicality.
OK why don't you put it to a poll?

Just remember people are accepting lockdown out of necessity .

Oh and try not to be so dramatic, you'll live longer. Seems you haven't had your lie down, bit a green tea should do the trick.
 

Evolved1

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Oh deary me.

Would people have preferred being under lockdown or would they have preferred the alternative?

I would suggest to you, again, that 95% of people would prefer lockdown.
Anyone can understand that despite lockdown being an extreme measure, the alternative was worse.

We can infer from the actions that people took, ie obeying lockdown measures, that they preferred that to the alternative.

Ideological f-wits will continue to bleat because they're trapped by their ideological BS.

The giveaway of ideological f-wits being trapped by their ideology is that they can only view the actions of others through a prism of ideology.
When that doesn't work their only recourse is to double-down on their ideology.
Those policies were socialism, the current policies are socialism, those policies will be socialm.

People will continue to accept lockdown as long as it serves the purpose for which it was introduced.
Ideological f-wits can't understand that the purpose of lockdowns is not ideology but practicality.
You just reminded me why I put you on ignore. You're an ideological whinging f-wit with no self-awareness. Good for a laugh though.
 

CatFan79

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Something like 90% of Covid hospitalisations are people with underlying conditions who've largely chosen unhealthy lifestyles (obesity/high blood pressure/diabetes etc). There needs to be more commentary around personal responsibility but we all know the truth offends people these days.

Covid is not going away anytime soon and most people's response is to drink alcohol, eat more and exercise less.

Unhealthy people already cost this country way too much as it is.
 

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