Politics So I guess when the sh*t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

iBeng

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Out of curiosity, how do you feel about the BLM protests in Melbourne and Sydney when COVID was still in its 'ambiguity' phase?
And the BLM protests in the US?
(My apologies in advance if you've posted about these issues elsewhere - happy for you to reply with just a link to an older post.)
Apples and oranges to a degree. One was a protest to bring to light criminal injustice and corruption in a section of society that is charged with maintaining law and order. The other was protesting that measures to combat a serious flu pandemic were dictatorial.

Could the BLM protested non physically? Probably. So could the anti covid restriction ones, although understandably they saw the other protests and decided their concerns were on the same level as police killing civilians.
 

Run n Spread

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Apples and oranges to a degree. One was a protest to bring to light criminal injustice and corruption in a section of society that is charged with maintaining law and order. The other was protesting that measures to combat a serious flu pandemic were dictatorial.

Could the BLM protested non physically? Probably. So could the anti covid restriction ones, although understandably they saw the other protests and decided their concerns were on the same level as police killing civilians.
To a degree you can't have it both ways. You argue the government on the weekend cracked down on an event that could spread a virus threatening lives.
But so could BLM or are you suggesting a virus can tell the difference? People gathering is people gathering.
I would say the protesters were arguing against police and government over reach.
Suspension of assembly is very serious. Don't see how you allow one gathering and not the other when the objective of banning gathering was the same
 
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Run n Spread

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Australia isnt America, and even in America you have free speech but you DO NOT have protections to the CONSEQUENCES of your free speech.
That's true if you threaten for example or willfully mislead for gain profit fraud etc comes under fraud and misrepresentation.
But freedom of expression or a reasonably held opinion should not be censored.
Any democracy is a contest of ideas perspective and policy. Undermining freedom of speech undermines that
 

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Gough

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This government is certainly very socialist when it comes to the energy market, and they're not even backing a winner. They're looking after their mates and donors, electricity prices will rise and sooner rather than later we'll be left with a hugely expensive, government funded white elephant. Gas led recovery my arse.
 

Run n Spread

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She was organizing an event that would increase the change of death in her fellow people...You are defending her right to help hasten the spread of a virus that has proven to kill and cause long term effects in people. Not everyone you'll say, and its a low rate, but its STILL A VALID THREAT.

You CANNOT have free speech that NEGATIVELY IMPACTS OTHERS WELFARE.
A BLM protest also increases the chance of death in fellow protesters. And those they associate with. A gathering is a gathering. In any case the BLM protests had a greater number and added to the threat. And I have no issue with BLM (a noble cause and yeah it was based in the US but nothing wrong with the sentiment). I just don't see how you allow that form of protest but then say to smaller gatherings nah you have no rights because we disagree with your opinion but agree with the former.

That is what people are shitty about imo.

Also of course the rate matters. Otherwise rights would be always suspended. We live with viral and other threats all the time. Of course the degree matters.
 

iBeng

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To a degree you can't have it both ways. You argue the government on the weekend cracked down on an event that could spread a virus threatening lives.
But so could BLM or are you suggesting a virus can tell the difference? People gathering is people gathering.
I would say the protesters were arguing against police and government over reach.
Suspension of assembly is very serious. Don't see how you allow one gathering and not the other when the objective of banning gathering was the same
So the answer is either lock everyone up or let everyone freely choose how they react? Spread or stay at home, peoples choice? And then when all hell breaks loose and the virus goes rampant, we can sit back and blame the government for not acting?

What do you want?
 

Run n Spread

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So the answer is either lock everyone up or let everyone freely choose how they react? Spread or stay at home, peoples choice? And then when all hell breaks loose and the virus goes rampant, we can sit back and blame the government for not acting?

What do you want?
It's you that has the all or nothing approach. Yet you allow exemptions because apparently the virus can tell the difference between one form of protest but not another.

What do I want?
A common sense approach based on a reasonable summary of medical opinion not a closeted lock down lock down based on the running of a select few.
Some common sense proportional measures in public spaces to minimise risk.
The government not to interfere with the private lives of its citizens with outrageous over reach.

And answers to the following would be nice:

What is the overall long term strategy the government is pursuing?
Why has public advice on long term medical practices i.e. Masks and their effectiveness in containing viral spread been so contradictory since the start of the year? (Masks were not advisable no suddenly compulsory)
Why are the health implications of Covid been such a narrow focus and not the health effects from such sever lockdowns?
Given Australia has not any excess deaths in total in any state and nursing home deaths in Victoria have been less than last year to this point what is the scientific evidence behind such lockdowns?
What is the threshold been used for positive tests? Would this viral load pose a risk of wide spread contagion?

Given this is the first disease I have ever heard of with asymptomatic spread (especially when a number of cases are unknown to the carrier) could you detail the medical advice that renders the need to quarantine healthy individuals? (Something that has never been wide spread practice in medicine before?)
Why are police behaving so heavy handed when previous protests at the height of the pandemic were allowed to go ahead?
What legal advice has been sought to the Constitutional legality of border closures?
Is the government in breach of the Australian Human Rights Act: Article 22 (Australia is a signatory)?

Victoria: Does this breach the Human Rights of citizens against Victoria's own charter of human rights?
Given the Public Health Act gives control of State of Emergency and State of Disaster control to the Emergency Services Minister why is the Premier and not Lisa Neville calling the shots?
What is Brett Sutton's role? Is he an adviser or as the CHO should he be given full control at the direction of the ES Minister?
 

Nickoo

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It's you that has the all or nothing approach. Yet you allow exemptions because apparently the virus can tell the difference between one form of protest but not another.

What do I want?
A common sense approach based on a reasonable summary of medical opinion not a closeted lock down lock down based on the running of a select few.
Some common sense proportional measures in public spaces to minimise risk.
The government not to interfere with the private lives of its citizens with outrageous over reach.

And answers to the following would be nice:

What is the overall long term strategy the government is pursuing?
Why has public advice on long term medical practices i.e. Masks and their effectiveness in containing viral spread been so contradictory since the start of the year? (Masks were not advisable no suddenly compulsory)
Why are the health implications of Covid been such a narrow focus and not the health effects from such sever lockdowns?
Given Australia has not any excess deaths in total in any state and nursing home deaths in Victoria have been less than last year to this point what is the scientific evidence behind such lockdowns?
What is the threshold been used for positive tests? Would this viral load pose a risk of wide spread contagion?

Given this is the first disease I have ever heard of with asymptomatic spread (especially when a number of cases are unknown to the carrier) could you detail the medical advice that renders the need to quarantine healthy individuals? (Something that has never been wide spread practice in medicine before?)
Why are police behaving so heavy handed when previous protests at the height of the pandemic were allowed to go ahead?
What legal advice has been sought to the Constitutional legality of border closures?
Is the government in breach of the Australian Human Rights Act: Article 22 (Australia is a signatory)?

Victoria: Does this breach the Human Rights of citizens against Victoria's own charter of human rights?
Given the Public Health Act gives control of State of Emergency and State of Disaster control to the Emergency Services Minister why is the Premier and not Lisa Neville calling the shots?
What is Brett Sutton's role? Is he an adviser or as the CHO should he be given full control at the direction of the ES Minister?
Way too many things to go over here but I’ll just add to the contradictory mask wearing notices. Essentially an journal article in the Lancet changed the thinking. The advice hasn’t really changed, it’s just that they thought that if they were made mandatory outside then people wouldn’t forget them and would have them when the real danger occurs where they are inside an enclosed space and cannot distance themselves sufficiently.

Much of what you ask seems sensible but the way its put sounds like a Trumpite.


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Nickoo

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Common sense often gets people killed.
Andrews finally admitted the curfew wasn’t based on advice as he had prior but his ‘common sense’ view of the data except there was no data.


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iBeng

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Andrews finally admitted the curfew wasn’t based on advice as he had prior but his ‘common sense’ view of the data except there was no data.


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And thats the thing, isn't it? When they act based on data people just claim its false or fabricated. When they go off common sense or make a gut call people get angry they didn't go off the data.
 

Austoraisetheurn

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Like what - universal healthcare, support for the unemployed and small business?
It's precisely what governments should do, especially with bond rates so low.
As an ex-financial trader, I always have laughed at how so many people in society have no idea where money comes from. The Australia Government WILL NEVER run out of money. They create the damn stuff.

There are two governments in the world that know this...China and Japan. I'd probably throw America and Trump in there as well.

Japan's infrastructure is the best in the world; they care about their citizens, and they are willing to spend whatever it takes to ensure a decent quality of life is maintained for all.

The Japan Central Bank owns around 50% of gov debt, and this has increased substantially over the last several years, and they will continue to do so. Bond markets haven't and won't collapse; many have tried shorting Japanese Gov bonds - based on fundamental analysis from classical economic theory. Those on the short side have been destroyed.

My gut feel is that the tide is turning against the 'balanced budget' myth that is put forward by too many federal governments and swallowed up by the uneducated and simple folk in the street who think running a government is like running a household.

All we need now is someone in politics who is prepared to truly do some economic form and ensure a better life for all.
 

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iBeng

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As an ex-financial trader, I always have laughed at how so many people in society have no idea where money comes from. The Australia Government WILL NEVER run out of money. They create the damn stuff.

There are two governments in the world that know this...China and Japan. I'd probably throw America and Trump in there as well.

Japan's infrastructure is the best in the world; they care about their citizens, and they are willing to spend whatever it takes to ensure a decent quality of life is maintained for all.

The Japan Central Bank owns around 50% of gov debt, and this has increased substantially over the last several years, and they will continue to do so. Bond markets haven't and won't collapse; many have tried shorting Japanese Gov bonds - based on fundamental analysis from classical economic theory. Those on the short side have been destroyed.

My gut feel is that the tide is turning against the 'balanced budget' myth that is put forward by too many federal governments and swallowed up by the uneducated and simple folk in the street who think running a government is like running a household.

All we need now is someone in politics who is prepared to truly do some economic form and ensure a better life for all.
Capitalism is the hurdle in this. The more the government has a say in fixing social situations the more the uneducated scream socialism and communism. People have been condition to believe that everything can be priced, valued and costed and every should pull themselves up to a livable standard. If they were living in the wild they would purposely cripple their own fellow animals just to keep their heads up.
 

Seeds

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As an ex-financial trader, I always have laughed at how so many people in society have no idea where money comes from. The Australia Government WILL NEVER run out of money. They create the damn stuff.

There are two governments in the world that know this...China and Japan. I'd probably throw America and Trump in there as well.

Japan's infrastructure is the best in the world; they care about their citizens, and they are willing to spend whatever it takes to ensure a decent quality of life is maintained for all.

The Japan Central Bank owns around 50% of gov debt, and this has increased substantially over the last several years, and they will continue to do so. Bond markets haven't and won't collapse; many have tried shorting Japanese Gov bonds - based on fundamental analysis from classical economic theory. Those on the short side have been destroyed.

My gut feel is that the tide is turning against the 'balanced budget' myth that is put forward by too many federal governments and swallowed up by the uneducated and simple folk in the street who think running a government is like running a household.

All we need now is someone in politics who is prepared to truly do some economic form and ensure a better life for all.
China and japan have large negative net external debt. All their government debt is just borrowed from local citizens. Australia on the other hand has close to the largest positive net external debt of all developed economies. Our debt is owned by foreigners. If we print too much money we will end up in an exchange rate crisis. Do you understand this?
 

Evolved1

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Apples and oranges to a degree. One was a protest to bring to light criminal injustice and corruption in a section of society that is charged with maintaining law and order. The other was protesting that measures to combat a serious flu pandemic were dictatorial.

Could the BLM protested non physically? Probably. So could the anti covid restriction ones, although understandably they saw the other protests and decided their concerns were on the same level as police killing civilians.
You're arbitrarily judging the legitimacy of each protest from your own vantage point. All protests, for any cause, should be treated equitably irrespective of whether we agree or disagree with them.
 

iBeng

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You're arbitrarily judging the legitimacy of each protest from your own vantage point. All protests, for any cause, should be treated equitably irrespective of whether we agree or disagree with them.
But that would include protesting things that are against the law, right? Like protesting to abolish murder as a crime?
 

iBeng

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If everyone agreed with the status quo, there would be no reason to protest.
But that will never happen because we are individuals, not a hive mind.

Arguably, we shouldnt be living like we do, we dont have the monkey brain to deal with society as it is, its why we see depression, anxiety, suicide etc. We are a small knit family type animal, not millions of us fighting for relevance.
 

Number37

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China and japan have large negative net external debt. All their government debt is just borrowed from local citizens. Australia on the other hand has close to the largest positive net external debt of all developed economies. Our debt is owned by foreigners. If we print too much money we will end up in an exchange rate crisis. Do you understand this?
Why/How would we end up in an exchange rate crisis?
 

Evolved1

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But that will never happen because we are individuals, not a hive mind.

Arguably, we shouldnt be living like we do, we dont have the monkey brain to deal with society as it is, its why we see depression, anxiety, suicide etc. We are a small knit family type animal, not millions of us fighting for relevance.
There's little argument from me against your point that we shouldn't be living like this. It's not ideal even if you ignore 2020.

What would your ideal world look like?
 

Seeds

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Why/How would we end up in an exchange rate crisis?
Because if we were printing money at a faster rate than the usa then our exchange rate would be weakening and this would worry foreign lenders who would start calling on loans (or stop giving new loans) which would then cause the exchange rate to fall further and then this would create a panic as all foriegn investors exit the doors. The rba then would be forced to jack up interest rates to stop the exchange rate crash but this would then kill our mortgage market.

This would not be a problem in japan or china because they are net external lenders. Nor is it a problem in the usa because most debt is denominated in us dollars. It is however a massive problem for australia. We cant print our way out of our problems unless the usa do it even more otherwise we will have exchange rate issues due to our large net external debt.
 
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Number37

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Because if we were printing money at a faster rate then the usa then our exchange rate would be weakening
How? Why?

and this would worry foreign lenders who would start calling on loans (or stop giving new loans)
Why? How?

which would only cause the exchange rate to fall further
Why? How?

and then this would create a panic as all foriegn investors exit the doors.
Why? How?

The rba then would be forced to jack up interest rates to stop the exchange rate crash but this would then kill our mortgage market.
At the start of your argument the RBA is adding money into the economy and at the end of your argument the RBA is taking money out of the economy. :heavycheck:

All the stuff in between is a load of mumbo jumbo.
 

iBeng

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There's little argument from me against your point that we shouldn't be living like this. It's not ideal even if you ignore 2020.

What would your ideal world look like?
Honestly, sometimes I wish I could just go about my life by myself, find something I can do that makes me useful at least but allows as little contact as needed with other people and instead focus on what I want to do. I guess just be selfish, but thats mostly because my experience with people has generally been negative. But Im married and have a daughter so I live outside what Id consider a comfort zone for me.

As far as society as a whole...I know we wont be reverting to village-like society any time soon...Whenever I read scifis that have computer-human overlap the idea of a virtual reality you could permanently exist in is damn appealing. Well beyond my life span though.
 

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