Politics So I guess when the s**t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

[DaRick]

Sadly I'm not even sure that's entirely correct - Equatorial Guinea is arguably the richest state in African (GDP) and they climbed there by banishing free and fair elections (after the first) and cozying up to communist states - then of course cronyism after oil was discovered.

Gabon is probably the best example for a capitalist model (after tourist-island states). If anything, arguably the strongest correlation between African wealth and any other factor is population size.

Also Gaddafi's Libya.

Like Gabon, an authoritarian petrostate with a relatively small population.

 

[Mofra]

South Africa?

GDP per capita:

• Equatorial Guinea ($34,865)
• Seychelles ($28,172)
• Mauritius ($21,628)
• Gabon ($19,266)
• Botswana ($18,146)

Then down to:

South Africa $13,403

Source here: https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/richest-african-countries/

 

[its free real estate]

Remind me again what happened to the Romans?

If only Caesar hadnt crossed the Rubicon.

The Roman Empire was functioning pretty well until the Antonine and Cyprian plagues each wiped out 20-30% of the population in the space of 70 years. But it was probably because they weren’t liberal and capitalist enough.

 

[Number37]

Generally speaking capitalism tends to oppose concentrated economic power (most obviously by favouring competitive markets), which assists in the maintenance of democracy.

How does capitalism 'favour competitive markets'?

 

[DaRick]

How does capitalism 'favour competitive markets'?

The idea is that in capitalist societies, private concerns own more and the government has a monopoly on fewer things (banks, airlines etc.), thus resulting in more competition.

In practice, that ideal is somewhat complicated by monopolisation.

 

[Bombermania]

The idea that western Europe went past China because of liberalism is eurocentric and frankly, racist.

I thought most people were able to now connect the devastating impact that the Khans had on the more learned areas of the world during the medieval period i.e. China, Japan and the Islamic areas with Europe gradually becoming more powerful.

It is not racist because the western world did go past China for a few centuries and it has only been in recent decades that China has closed the gap and China is still classed as a developing country.

 

[QuietB]

How does capitalism 'favour competitive markets'?

The idea is that in capitalist societies, private concerns own more and the government has a monopoly on fewer things (banks, airlines etc.), thus resulting in more competition.

In practice, that ideal is somewhat complicated by monopolisation.

Isn't the whole idea that capitalism incentivises innovation by rewarding success in a competitive environment.

The imbalance in the west seems to be two fold to me;

1. We over emphasise and over reward individual success
2. We assume everything can be resolved through this model when clearly it cannot.

 

[Caesar]

How does capitalism 'favour competitive markets'?

Competition is a pillar of capitalism.

 

[Number37]

The idea is that in capitalist societies, private concerns own more and the government has a monopoly on fewer things (banks, airlines etc.), thus resulting in more competition.

In practice, that ideal is somewhat complicated by monopolisation.

If capitalism was permitted to run its course then it would result in monopolies in every industry.

Single party tyrannical illiberal States (Communism and Fascism) are stagnant, lack innovation, tyrannical, and show a propensity for reduced personal freedoms and human rights. Thats just a consequence of the State controlling the means of production, something they have no business doing.

I'd wouldn't mind seeing some substantiation for some of those claims.

 

[Mofra]

If capitalism was permitted to run its course then it would result in monopolies in every industry.

It's almost like... the state has a role to play in regulating corporate behaviour.

 

[Malifice]

If capitalism was permitted to run its course then it would result in monopolies in every industry.

Adam Smith predicted the same.

That's why he advocated for Government intervention to stop that from happening.

I'd wouldn't mind seeing some substantiation for some of those claims.

Name a Communist State that wasnt a single party tyranny.

Cambodia (Khmer Rouge), China (Mao), Russia/ USSR (Stalin), North Korea (the Kims), Cuba (Castro) etc.

Seriously, name one.

 

[Number37]

Competition is a pillar of capitalism.

Isn't the whole idea that capitalism incentivises innovation by rewarding success in a competitive environment.

The imbalance in the west seems to be two fold to me;

1. We over emphasise and over reward individual success
2. We assume everything can be resolved through this model when clearly it cannot.

If you take capitalism to its natural conclusion it results in monopolies.
Best explained by poker tournaments, where it's only a matter of time until one dude walks away with everything.

Competition/free markets are premised on ceteris paribus, which almost never holds true.
It is capitalism which destroys the ceteris paribus part of the equation.

No point having pocket aces if you're short stacked.

 

[Bleeeeeeeeep]

Looks like we will have two nationalised airlines.

Redirect Notice

www.google.com.au

 

[Malifice]

It's almost like... the state has a role to play in regulating corporate behaviour.

Exactly.

Smith himself foresaw monopolies and cartels forming and thoroughly repudiated them. He asserted in WoN that the State has a role in slapping down such practices to ensure the market remains free. Its the basis for such things as the ACCC and Australian Consumer Law (which combined stop practices like price fixing and so forth).

Adam Smith advocated for State intervention in the economy to prevent harm (monopolies and unfair trade practices). Which is perfectly in line with liberalism.

 

[Malifice]

If you take capitalism to its natural conclusion it results in monopolies.

Thats where liberalism kicks in. The (liberal) State legislates to stop that sort of thing.

Which is what they're there to do. Stop harm and people messing with other people.

 

[Number37]

Adam Smith predicted the same.

That's why he advocated for Government intervention to stop that from happening.



Name a Communist State that wasnt a single party tyranny.

Cambodia (Khmer Rouge), China (Mao), Russia/ USSR (Stalin), North Korea (the Kims), Cuba (Castro) etc.

Seriously, name one.

You rattled off some claims, in particular, I wouldn't mind seeing your substantiation for your lack of innovation claim.

 

[Number37]

Thats where liberalism kicks in. The (liberal) State legislates to stop that sort of thing.

Which is what they're there to do. Stop harm and people messing with other people.

Liberalism is a load of crap used conveniently, as you have done, to neatly explain things.
We're supposed to believe that "liberalism" is the reason that we haven't descended into chaos as a result of people like Bezos turning industry after industry into monopolies?

 

[Malifice]

Liberalism is a load of crap used conveniently, as you have done, to neatly explain things.

Explain to me what Liberalism is.

 

[Number37]

Explain to me what Liberalism is.

Wishy-washy nonsense that allows people to pick and choose which parts of a govt system they like or don't like.

I'll have some free speech (whatever that means) & free markets (whatever that means) & small govt (whatever that means)
But I'll pass on safety nets & other govt intervention in sectors like education and health.

 

[Number37]

It's almost like... the state has a role to play in regulating corporate behaviour.

Yes, because?

 

[Malifice]

Wishy-washy nonsense that allows people to pick and choose which parts of a govt system they like or don't like.

I see. So you have no idea what it is.

 

[Number37]

I see. So you have no idea what it is.

Damn straight, because it is wishy-washy nonsense.
Explain it to me like I'm a liberalism.

 

[Caesar]

If you take capitalism to its natural conclusion it results in monopolies.

Are you in any danger of making a point any time soon?

 

[QuietB]

Explain to me what Liberalism is.

Apparently it is the government should stay the hell out of my life except to keep the brown people away until the s**t completely hits the fan in which case I am no longer a liberal

 

[Number37]

Are you in any danger of making a point any time soon?

When in Rome...

Despite the many claims to the contrary, it isn't one thing that magically results in liberalism/capitalist utopia.

We've got more millionaires than ICU beds.
Are we really better off than the socialists?