Politics So I guess when the s**t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

[Sainteric]

Fascist, I would say. Everyone I talk to seems to want the army deployed to enforce social order.

Very Chinese socialism

 

[its free real estate]

What heavy industry do you think returns to Australia?
We're still exporting raw material for smelting.

When Australia instituted its post war industrial policy, it had two purposes, to create jobs and to ensure we had strategic capabilities in times of crisis. In the relatively benign and peaceful 70 years since then, this was eroded in favour of liberalism. Now we have a crisis on hand and can’t get PPE, other countries can’t get ventilators, etc. When we rebuild the economy, do we do it with baristas or a level of self sufficiency?

Branko Milanovic had a piece on this the other day

The Real Pandemic Danger Is Social Collapse

The world could be witnessing a fundamental shift in the very nature of the global economy.

www.foreignaffairs.com

 

[Gethelred]

Not at all, I like capitalism.
Harsher terms of neoliberalism = the proponents of austerity. Those who argue against universal healthcare. Just look up the IPA wishlist if you like.

Why would you use a term like "freedom of choice"? If you adopt the capability approach (Sen), then the social democratic model of capitalism arguably provides for the greatest freedom of choice for the greatest number of people.

While I agree with you, there is a tendency on forums like this - where we argue against proponents as right wing as we are left, and vice versa (regardless of their and our delusions of our own neutrality/centreness) - to believe that the views of such groups as the IPA are more widely supported than they are.

There has never been much more than niche support of the full IPA agenda, because it's legitimately batshit.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That's your take on it, not mine.
I'd suggest there is more freedom of choice in having an economic safety net than having no safety net.

It's not a 'take', socialism / communism requires regimented state,you do realize that right? There has been measures of economic net in capitalism for as long as we've had capitalism. This is not new.

I'm not convinced you actually know the impacts of socialism / communism.

 

[Mofra]

When Australia instituted its post war industrial policy, it had two purposes, to create jobs and to ensure we had strategic capabilities in times of crisis. In the relatively benign and peaceful 70 years since then, this was eroded in favour of liberalism. Now we have a crisis on hand and can’t get PPE, other countries can’t get ventilators, etc. When we rebuild the economy, do we do it with baristas or a level of self sufficiency?

Branko Milanovic had a piece on this the other day

The Real Pandemic Danger Is Social Collapse

The world could be witnessing a fundamental shift in the very nature of the global economy.

www.foreignaffairs.com

It's an interesting article but scant on detail of what industries a country would feasibly be able to re-start.

The government might start some basic refining and smelting capacity (Geelong/Portland) but it would not meet local demand, nor would global trade be completely halted to require a complete nationalisation of the majority of manufacturing capability.
The US may actually be well placed with the rust belt states, and the shale oil boom around Texas.

Additionally, some countries just don't have the capacity to ramp up domestic production to meet domestic demand i.e. the UK produces ~50% of the food it consumes, and Asian protein production is much lower than the burgeoning middle class demands.

 

[Mofra]

It's not a 'take', socialism / communism requires regimented state,you do realize that right? There has been measures of economic net in capitalism for as long as we've had capitalism. This is not new.

I'm not convinced you actually know the impacts of socialism / communism.

Given you're conflating a socialist approach to economic management through a crisis, with communism, I'm not sure you're even arguing against the OP anyway.

 

[Mofra]

While I agree with you, there is a tendency on forums like this - where we argue against proponents as right wing as we are left, and vice versa (regardless of their and our delusions of our own neutrality/centreness) - to believe that the views of such groups as the IPA are more widely supported than they are.

There has never been much more than niche support of the full IPA agenda, because it's legitimately batshit.

While numerically there may only be niche support for the full suite of IPA measures, their policy influence is profound... or was, up to a month ago.

 

[Gethelred]

While numerically there may only be niche support for the full suite of IPA measures, their policy influence is profound... or was, up to a month ago.

Absolutely, but even the political party they started try to keep quiet the links between them, and works their arse off trying to appease them without implementing the too politically disastrous of their ideas.

 

[Gethelred]

In fact, all this indicates is that ideology is not the primary goal of the Coalition when in government. If it were, the austerity measures advocated by most hardcore neolibs would have been their first port of call, as would complete abandonment of those without private healthcare.

The goal of the Coalition once in power is merely to keep it. If left wing policy is a vote winner - despite ideological opposition - then left wing policy it is, in this particular moment.

 

[Chameleon75]

What heavy industry do you think returns to Australia?
We're still exporting raw material for smelting.

A number of countries have directed automakers to produce ventilators. I think it’s important to retain some sort of manufacturing base that enables you to retool in cases of emergency. Perhaps we end up subsiding some industry knowing it’s inefficient just to provide that capability in emergencies.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Given you're conflating a socialist approach to economic management through a crisis, with communism, I'm not sure you're even arguing against the OP anyway.

Conflating?! How am I correlating exactly?

This 'socialism' we're about to embark on is not by choice, you are aware of that right? (Would certainly hope so).

When we either A/ defeat the virus or B/ learn to co exist with it, one way or another we will return to what we know: a liberal western democratic society that is based on freedom of enterprise i:e capitalism.

Until this virus has forced regimented state upon us i:e socialism, it seems capitalism was the popular way of life for the overwhelming majority.

It's likely that those who are in favour of socialism will get their wish temporarily and may not like it after experiencing it.

 

[Number37]

Well done to governments taking steps to protect people and the economy.

Quick question.

When Frodo gets to stimulus7 and we're up to $500bn do you think he will stop using the words 'targeted' and 'scalable'?

 

[Present Not Past]

I'm not disputing what you're saying - after your post, I had a look online - merely the frequency of how often you know a prominent member of the opposite side of politics to you is/was a pedophile.

It's uncanny, really really strange. I applaud your depth of knowledge, but it does lead one to question how you know these things.

It's his pet interest - Famous Pedophiles in History.

 

[Present Not Past]

Quick question.

When Frodo gets to stimulus7 and we're up to $500bn do you think he will stop using the words 'targeted' and 'scalable'?

We already know what his "targeted" means - the money's not available.

 

[its free real estate]

A number of countries have directed automakers to produce ventilators. I think it’s important to retain some sort of manufacturing base that enables you to retool in cases of emergency. Perhaps we end up subsiding some industry knowing it’s inefficient just to provide that capability in emergencies.

That’s basically why we had a car industry in the first place, as a means to manufacture in a crisis (mostly for war, but any crisis might apply).

 

[Seeds]

Will countries be as keen to offshore all their manufacturing after this crisis, or will there be a return to onshoring?

Your bring home manufacturing revolution wont happen because of the virus except in maybe hospital ventilators. Although a better solution is just to buy more ventilator stock during the good times so you are prepared for virus outbreaks. Having more doctors and hospital beds would be ideal too.

are you still happy for commodity trade being a western australian? Or should we stop that too for national security reasons?

 

[Cooldude]

Beg and cry for help from others when times are hard, but hog and hoard everything for themselves when the times are good. Capitalism 101

 

[its free real estate]

Your bring home manufacturing revolution wont happen because of the virus except in maybe hospital ventilators. Although a better solution is just to buy more ventilator stock during the good times so you are prepared for virus outbreaks. Having more doctors and hospital beds would be ideal too.

Maginot line thinking. If the next crisis is a war those ventilators will be useless.

are you still happy for commodity trade being a western australian? Or should we stop that too for national security reasons?

Why would we stop it?

 

[FireKrakouer]

Beg and cry for help from others when times are hard, but hog and hoard everything for themselves when the times are good. Capitalism 101

That's it. It really grinds my gears, all these right wing banker types like herculez09 hoarding resources!

 

[Present Not Past]

That's it. It really grinds my gears, all these right wing banker types like herculez09 hoarding resources!

Monopoly Capitalism - procure all the resources, create artificial shortages and resell at inflated prices.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Self-explanatory title. Given the massive stimulus measures taken by governments around the world in response to this pandemic and the measures taken during the GFC, can we finally put the nail in the coffin for hard-line neoliberal economic rationalism that some still pretend is in force?

Well done to governments taking steps to protect people and the economy.

Something something invisible hand

 

[Marcel Proust]

The fact that you can find a way to reduce an incredible amount of subjects to whether or not the person in question was a pedophile is a) a remarkable feat of memory, given the sheer number of times you assert this stuff, b) bullshit of the highest order, that you insert here and there to shock people, or c) an obsession of yours to discover how many historical figures were pedophiles.

In any case, it's disconcerting, doesn't add much to the discussion, and isn't entirely healthy.

It's mor concerning not worrying about influential types being that way inclined

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...n-trafficking-scandals.1234474/#post-64400293

 

[Seeds]

Maginot line thinking. If the next crisis is a war those ventilators will be useless.

Why would we stop it?

Again we wont have wars if the world is highly linked through trade. No countries can survive a war if they need goods and resources from others. No countries want war if their leaders profits are tied to other people. Plus tourism and trade makes people more trusting of others. we stop thinking if ithers countries as aliens and cockroaches when we trade with them and travel to their lands. we do not want to go back to a world of little trade.

 

[its free real estate]

Again we wont have wars if the world is highly linked through trade

Lmao

 

[nylexbandit]

Quick question.

When Frodo gets to stimulus7 and we're up to $500bn do you think he will stop using the words 'targeted' and 'scalable'?

Cant wait for the Murdoch rags to:
- attack the response of this government and demand a royal commission (pink batts 4 deaths / mismanagement here how many);
- work out that dead people will have received handouts and cry ‘dead people got it’