Politics So I guess when the s**t hits the fan, everyone's a socialist

[its free real estate]

If sub saharan Africa embraced liberalism and free marked capitalism, you'd see a very different sub saharan Africa.

Settle down, they have to get past eating albinos to ward off evil spirits first.

 

[Malifice]

Settle down, they have to get past eating albinos to ward off evil spirits first.

Putting aside the racist undertones of your post, that's a consequence of low HDI.

HDI is directly corelated to liberalism and capitalism. All the top nations in the world (measured by HDI and median income etc) are liberal capitalist democracies.

But yeah nah. It was the Mongols and Opium.

 

[its free real estate]

And yet you repeatedly argue just such racialist theories yourself.

Ironic.

There’s no irony. The superior Western position you assume as being based in the political framework you favour is in fact based on Westerner’s historical belief in being inherently superior. Or do you think the people in the 19th century who marched Native Americans to their death were “liberal”?

 

[its free real estate]

Putting aside the racist undertones of your post, that's a consequence of low HDI.

HDI is directly corelated to liberalism and capitalism. All the top nations in the world (measured by HDI and median income etc) are liberal capitalist democracies.

But yeah nah. It was the Mongols and Opium.

Lol. The Aztecs were higher HDI than Europeans when Cortes encountered them, but they still skinned children alive to satisfy their rain god.

 

[Mofra]

If sub saharan Africa embraced liberalism and free marked capitalism, you'd see a very different sub saharan Africa.

Colonial subjugation is a result of capitalism, not a vanguard to warn against critiquing it.

 

[Malifice]

The superior Western position you assume as being based in the political framework you favour is in fact based on Westerner’s historical belief in being inherently superior.

Huh?

No I assert liberal democracies with a capitalist economy to be superior. To every other form of government, including other 'western' ones (Fascism, Communism, Dictatorships, Monarchies, etc etc)

 

[Malifice]

Lol. The Aztecs were higher HDI than Europeans when Cortes encountered them.

By what metric?

Were the Aztecs liberal capitalist democracies by any chance?

 

[its free real estate]

Huh?

No I assert liberal democracies with a capitalist economy to be superior. To every other form of government, including other 'western' ones (Fascism, Communism, Dictatorships, Monarchies, etc etc)

I’m sure the Chinese, Native Americans, etc of the 19th century all felt very warm and humbled to be in the presence of “liberal capitalism”.

 

[its free real estate]

By what metric?

Were the Aztecs liberal capitalist democracies by any chance?

They were wealthier, better fed, healthier, etc than the people of Europe. Even the Conquistadors were in awe of their society, as much as they were disgusted by its practices.

 

[Malifice]

Colonial subjugation is a result of capitalism

Tell that to the Romans or any other Empire that was not capitalist.

 

[Malifice]

They were wealthier, better fed, healthier, etc than the people of Europe.

Source?

 

[Mofra]

Tell that to the Romans or any other Empire that was not capitalist.

Despite Romans inventing the concept of a corporation, you had to go back to the pre-capitalist era to defend a critique of modern capitalism?

Let's try United Fruit Company then.

 

[its free real estate]

Source?

Cortes’s own accounts as well as numerous studies done on the health and well-being of Native American populations, including the Aztecs.

Did you know that when white people were captured to live with Native Americans, when freed they didn’t want to return to settled society?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Colonial subjugation is a result of capitalism, not a vanguard to warn against critiquing it.

When Bengal went from the wealthiest state on the planet to one of the poorest due to the East India Company, they just weren't liberal or capitalist enough.

Of course, that's not the fault of capitalism or liberalism.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Be honest with yourself - where would you rather live? Bengal or England?

 

[Malifice]

Despite Romans inventing the concept of a corporation, you had to go back to the pre-capitalist era to defend a critique of modern capitalism?

Is your position that Capitalists are the only system that engages in colonialism or imperialism?

What exactly do you think the (Communist) Russians were doing with Eastern Europe and the USSR?

 

[Mofra]

Is your position that Capitalists are the only system that engages in colonialism or imperialism?

What exactly do you think the (Communist) Russians were doing with Eastern Europe and the USSR?

Not at all, but the infer that capitalism would help the people of sub-saharan Africa ignores the underlying causes of their current predicament.

We have a myriad of examples where there are negative impacts on the imposition of the capitalism system 'in style at the time' on other nations - the Chicago schoolers in South America in the 70s as an example.

 

[its free real estate]

Tell that to the Romans or any other Empire that was not capitalist.

What I would do is tell the triumphant Romans who, after defeating the Gauls, thought that Roman Republicanism was the most successful form of society in 50AD, that it would all be over in 30 years and a “republic” as a concept wouldn’t return again in any significant form for nearly 2000 years.

 

[Malifice]

Not at all, but the infer that capitalism would help the people of sub-saharan Africa ignores the underlying causes of their current predicament.

Fair point, and I am not trying to underplay the negative effects of colonialism and European interference in Africa.

The flip side is of course, that of those African nations that are doing the best (in terms of HDI and median income and so forth) are the ones with relatively stable liberal, capitalist States.

 

[Malifice]

What I would do is tell the triumphant Romans who, after defeating the Gauls, thought that Roman Republicanism was the most successful form of society in 50AD, that it would all be over in 30 years and a “republic” as a concept wouldn’t return again in any significant form for nearly 2000 years.

Remind me again what happened to the Romans?

If only Caesar hadnt crossed the Rubicon.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

It's undeniable that capitalism can produce countries that are great to live in.

It's also pretty undeniable that these great capitalist nations still require poorer countries to exploit for resources and cheap labour. Without these, our capitalist societies would collapse and suddenly not look so great.

Exploitation is still exploitation no matter how it's dressed up.

 

[its free real estate]

When Bengal went from the wealthiest state on the planet to one of the poorest due to the East India Company, they just weren't liberal or capitalist enough.

Of course, that's not the fault of capitalism or liberalism.

Mal’s thinking is so hilariously confined to the prevailing post WW2 / end of history paradigm, which fewer people believe in as the battles of that time recede into history.

When Western Europe and the US were the richest parts of the world no one ever thought it was “liberal capitalism” that was the cause. This is a post-1945 invention.

 

[Mofra]

Fair point, and I am not trying to underplay the negative effects of colonialism and European interference in Africa.

The flip side is of course, that of those African nations that are doing the best (in terms of HDI and median income and so forth) are the ones with relatively stable liberal, capitalist States.

Sadly I'm not even sure that's entirely correct - Equatorial Guinea is arguably the richest state in African (GDP) and they climbed there by banishing free and fair elections (after the first) and cozying up to communist states - then of course cronyism after oil was discovered.

Gabon is probably the best example for a capitalist model (after tourist-island states). If anything, arguably the strongest correlation between African wealth and any other factor is population size.

 

[Malifice]

It's undeniable that capitalism can produce countries that are great to live in.

It's also pretty undeniable that these great capitalist nations still require poorer countries to exploit for resources and cheap labour. Without these, our capitalist societies would collapse and suddenly not look so great.

Exploitation is still exploitation no matter how it's dressed up.

And as a consequence of that 'exploitation', you're seeing previously third world countries (Thailand as an example) see sudden and rapid rises in HDI and median income, and a surge of growth in the middle classes from poverty.

 

[Malifice]

Sadly I'm not even sure that's entirely correct - Equatorial Guinea is arguably the richest state in African (GDP) and they climbed there by banishing free and fair elections (after the first) and cozying up to communist states - then of course cronyism after oil was discovered.

Gabon is probably the best example for a capitalist model (after tourist-island states). If anything, arguably the strongest correlation between African wealth and any other factor is population size.

South Africa?