Society/Culture So what is so wrong with 'Nationalism'?

[Gethelred]

This is a good distinction that I hadn't really considered. If you divorce partisan political agendas from nationalism you get patriotism as its own distinct thing.

From first page of googling patriotism Vs nationalism found this interesting article "Patriotism" vs. "Nationalism": What's The Difference?

The gist I get from it is that the main distinction is that nationalism, in terms of connotation and usage, is more associated with the idea of superiority of a nation and its attributes and the inferiority of other nations and attributes, whereas patriotism is more just about appreciation of aspects of a country without that comparative competitive aspect.

I'd like to take credit, but when Ohitsthatguy made his thread which was merged with this one I remembered this thread existed and reread it.

That particular conflation was pointed out numerous times by other posters earlier on.

 

[#23 Hill]

Well if you look through the thread (and other sources if you wish) there are actual events / people to have pride in. Just off the top of my head.

• Womens & Mens national cricket team
• National netball team
• The Lawrence brothers, especially Jett (google that)
• Penny Wong and Albo doin 'diplomatically' well, helping out Ukraine, not sucking up to Xi or Vlad etc.
• Oscar Piastri
• The many scientific and medical breakthroughs
• The many inventions and innovations

Or you could be just be self loathing and concentrate on the negative, which you seem to be doing.

And "Aussie Cate" getting an Academy award nomination.

 

[rank and file]

What aspect of the nation am I suppossed to take pride in?

The stuff with rainbows

 

[#23 Hill]

The stuff with rainbows

And the Crows. If I lived in South Australia.

 

[Carringbush2010]

And the Crows. If I lived in South Australia.

Pride in the Pies Bobby. Pride in the Pies.

 

[demondavey]

In the last two decades there's been 'noise' around this apparent evil called 'nationalism'.

In other threads I've skimmed over there seems to be some sort of fear of having pride in the nation you and your descendants were born in.

Why is that? What is this evil in having pride in your nation?

I'm fascinated by those who passionately oppose national pride and would like to know why these types are so averse to national pride, what is this poison to society that is caused by nationalism? Why is it so dangerous?

There are plenty on these boards that have immense pride (that I can gauge by some of the posts) in opposing nationalism.

I think it is more noise than an actual problem, but for those who are vehemently in opposition to having pride in your nation? What is the actual threat of nationalism?

This should make for an interesting debate, and will show us who has pride and who has a problem with it.

Because nationalism leads to an exclusivity of minorities and breeds an insular culture and mindset that’s harder to come back from.

We are all human beings. Whether that be Australian, Indian, Puerto Rican, Iranian. If people feel the need to be exclusive because of the patch of earth they live on, they need a life.

 

[demondavey]

Ok, can you define the difference between patriotism and nationalism? How does patriotism lead to nationalism given you could argue they're one and the same?

What is so toxic about patrionationalism?

You just stated they are one and the same.

 

[demondavey]

Well flying the Aussie flag is offensive to some and has been labeled as 'nationalism' like 'nationalism' is bad.

Moronic thugs bashing the sh1t out of innocent people is not and should not be labeled 'nationalism'.

'Nationalism' is not bad, it's exactly the same as patriotism - yet some ignorant simpletons believe that nationalism somehow implies the intent of people who have pride in their nation want to have pride at the expense and detriment of other nations and other nations people. Obviously that idea so far fetched it goes to show that lack of grey matter in sheeple who eat this sh1t up.

The same sort of people who dreamed up some derogatory term for patriotic pride 'nationalism'

As long as non Australian flags can be flown, particularly from countries of a muslim heritage, not same same types like Irish or Swiss.

 

[demondavey]

That doesn't answer my question to you, what is the difference between nationalism and patriotism? And if you can define them differently what is so wrong with having pride in your nation?

What is it about having pride in your nation that somehow possesses people to got to war and commit genocide?

Because it never ceases in moderation. It escalates to full blown hate and racism. The concept is cancerous.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Because it never ceases in moderation. It escalates to full blown hate and racism. The concept is cancerous.

That is not the 'intent' (concept as you put it) of patriotism / 'nationalism' - like societal models, it gets hijacked by bad types. Yet everyone blames societal models like they're a sentient being.

They are not, nor is patriotism.

I think my premise of this thread is the misuse of language.

You and most others view patriotism / nationalism as some sort of green light to be an ahole, again that is not the intended 'concept'.

 

[demondavey]

That is not the 'intent' (concept as you put it) of patriotism / 'nationalism' - like societal models, it gets hijacked by bad types. Yet everyone blames societal models like they're a sentient being.

They are not, nor is patriotism.

I think my premise of this thread is the misuse of language.

You and most others view patriotism / nationalism as some sort of green light to be an ahole, again that is not the intended 'concept'.

But unfortunately the concepts are at fault, because human nature dictates extremes and ideas that are always manifestly excessive.

Patriotism and nationalism are a disaster.

 

[Gethelred]

That is not the 'intent' (concept as you put it) of patriotism / 'nationalism' - like societal models, it gets hijacked by bad types. Yet everyone blames societal models like they're a sentient being.

'Always the apples, never the barrel.'

 

[Malifice]

That is not the 'intent' (concept as you put it) of patriotism / 'nationalism' - like societal models, it gets hijacked by bad types. Yet everyone blames societal models like they're a sentient being.

They are not, nor is patriotism.

They're related topics though (nationalism and patriotism):

The moral value of nationalism, the relationship between nationalism and patriotism, and the compatibility of nationalism and cosmopolitanism are all subjects of philosophical debate.[12] Nationalism can be combined with diverse political goals and ideologies such as conservatism (national conservatism and right-wing populism) or socialism (left-wing nationalism).[4][17][18] In practice, nationalism is seen as positive or negative depending on its ideology and outcomes. Nationalism has been a feature of movements for freedom and justice, has been associated with cultural revivals,[8] and encourages pride in national achievements.[19] It has also been used to legitimize racial, ethnic, and religious divisions, suppress or attack minorities, and undermine human rights and democratic traditions.[12] Radical nationalism combined with racial hatred was a key factor in the Holocaust perpetrated by Nazi Germany.

Nationalism - Wikipedia

There can be positive elements to nationalism (solidarity, co-operation etc) but - as can be seen from the last line of the above quote - it can also have extremely evil consequences.

Look at the Cronulla riots for an example close to home. 'True Aussie pride' translated into:

Nationalism tends to have at its core a concept of a unified ethnicity, culture and racial group as identifiers of 'National identity'. Minorities and people that dont fit within that norm get persecuted by the majority.

When you have extremes of Nationalism leading to things like persecution by the State, ethnic cleansing and genocide it's something to keep a close eye on to say the least.

 

[faible]

They're related topics though (nationalism and patriotism):



Nationalism - Wikipedia

There can be positive elements to nationalism (solidarity, co-operation etc) but - as can be seen from the last line of the above quote - it can also have extremely evil consequences.

Look at the Cronulla riots for an example close to home. 'True Aussie pride' translated into:

Nationalism tends to have at its core a concept of a unified ethnicity, culture and racial group as identifiers of 'National identity'. Minorities and people that dont fit within that norm get persecuted by the majority.

When you have extremes of Nationalism leading to things like persecution by the State, ethnic cleansing and genocide it's something to keep a close eye on to say the least.

Given the level of interconnectedness between so many countries now, Nationalism makes less and less sense.

I mean NZ (yes I know this is partly a joke) is basically a state of Australia given it's as close to most of the Australian population as Perth is, NZers are basically accepted as being 'from here' yet are technically not 'us' if you're a Nationalist, right? Seems pretty silly to me.

 

[Carringbush2010]

But unfortunately the concepts are at fault, because human nature dictates extremes and ideas that are always manifestly excessive.

Patriotism and nationalism are a disaster.

Then any 'concept' is at fault, as you say human nature dictates extremes.

But nah patriotism and nationalism are deliberate in their ill intent.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

That is not the 'intent' (concept as you put it) of patriotism / 'nationalism' - like societal models, it gets hijacked by bad types. Yet everyone blames societal models like they're a sentient being.

They are not, nor is patriotism.

I think my premise of this thread is the misuse of language.

You and most others view patriotism / nationalism as some sort of green light to be an ahole, again that is not the intended 'concept'.

What if the nation is built on lies, invasion, terra nullius? What if the nation is controlled by a few mining billionaires and media moguls?

Which part of nationalism is attractive to you?

 

[Carringbush2010]

What if the nation is built on lies, invasion, terra nullius? What if the nation is controlled by a few mining billionaires and media moguls?

Which part of nationalism is attractive to you?

I've stated this before, the above is not the only, they're are plenty of people and groups to be proud of that have come from this country. Something we can all identify with.

May I suggest you look past your negative only examples and find some positivity about being 'Australian' (which I'd argue far outweighs the negatives).

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I've stated this before, the above is not the only, they're are plenty of people and groups to be proud of that have come from this country. Something we can all identify with.

May I suggest you look past your negative only examples and find some positivity about being 'Australian' (which I'd argue far outweighs the negatives).

When you say 'we can all identify with', are you excluding certain minority groups?

 

[cartwright]

I've stated this before, the above is not the only, they're are plenty of people and groups to be proud of that have come from this country. Something we can all identify with.

May I suggest you look past your negative only examples and find some positivity about being 'Australian' (which I'd argue far outweighs the negatives).

That’s patriotism.

Try as you might, they’re not the same thing.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That’s patriotism.

Try as you might, they’re not the same thing.

Only coz the definition is skewed IMO, 'National' 'ism'

Look at those two terms and have a long hard think about it, as I alluded in the op, 'national' and 'ism' is far from a green light to be an ahole.

 

[Carringbush2010]

When you say 'we can all identify with', are you excluding certain minority groups?

Aha, true that it is impossible to include everyone.

What I meant by 'we' is the majority can all identify with. Not intended to be an either or.

I guess that makes me the anti christ then doesn't it. < This is the sensationalism of the misuse of the term I'm talking about.

It's either you're exclusionary of everyone or inclusive everyone. Not possible, deny that if you will.

 

[cartwright]

Only coz the definition is skewed IMO, 'National' 'ism'

Look at those two terms and have a long hard think about it, as I alluded in the op, 'national' and 'ism' is far from a green light to be an ahole.

Maybe just google nationalism. It’d be easier for everyone.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Maybe just google nationalism. It’d be easier for everyone.

Seems you didn't read my post, again, I disagree with the 'popular belief' of the term 'nationalism'.

Look up the term 'national' and then 'ism'

 

[Gethelred]

I've stated this before, the above is not the only, they're are plenty of people and groups to be proud of that have come from this country. Something we can all identify with.

May I suggest you look past your negative only examples and find some positivity about being 'Australian' (which I'd argue far outweighs the negatives).

"Why can't you just... lean in?"

 

[Gethelred]

Only coz the definition is skewed IMO, 'National' 'ism'

Look at those two terms and have a long hard think about it, as I alluded in the op, 'national' and 'ism' is far from a green light to be an ahole.

It's times like this I really almost kinda wish that Sweet Jesus was still here:

If only words had different meanings.