Society/Culture So what is so wrong with 'Nationalism'?

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May 1, 2016
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Look we can round and round in circles, Ok I'll admit that pride in nation can be bad but it is not the only. But that seems to be the immediate reactionary assessment whenever the word 'nationalism' is mentioned.
There we go. I agree.

I think your reductive comment is drawing a very long bow, like I'm being willfully ignorant of any counter argument by making simple statements then claiming it cannot be argued.
... because you have done that in the past. You get stuck on something simple, and refuse to go beyond the simplistic.

The discussion we've had in here concerning the 'guns don't kill, people do' is an example of this. I've more or less stated that, on the surface at the extremely simple level, this is a logical statement that bears out in realistic terms, but I've then gone on to demonstrate that this is a reductive viewpoint because it ignores how much easier guns make killing. A gun is not the producer of the problem, but the facilitator.

You essentially got stuck on step one, after I'd already conceded it.
Again that is not the intent, and no I don't go around telling people they're emotional. I go around not arguing the impractical just because there's an emotive intent to the counter.
It might not be the intent, but you wield the word 'emotional' like a claymore the second you think you're on solid ground.

There's all kinds of things that could be considered impractical. Colonising Mars could be considered impractical, but we could most certainly accomplish that inside 20 years if we devoted time and money to it.

Essentially, when we decide on an appropriate path, we should do so looking at more than simply what is practical.
 

RobbieK

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Why should I follow a football team when I have no direct involvement? Why don't you follow all teams instead of just one? Y'know to be inclusive. Come to the Pies Robbie, we need more members!

If you ask this question then you're asking 100's of millions of people.

You come across as if those achievements do not warrant my pride because I've had no involvement (achievement).

Were you proud of your team when they won the flag? If so you must've had direct involvement right?
I follow a football team because it is entertaining to do so. I don't take pride in my teams achievements as if they are my own. Plenty of people on here do, no doubt. I would refer them to Schopenhauer.

If you don't have involvement in an achievement it is irrational for you to take pride in it.

You can be proud of other people for their achievements. That is not the same as feeling personal pride in or for their achievements.
 
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May 1, 2016
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Are you proud to be associated with the Carlton Football Club?
I mean, kind of.

I derive enjoyment from being a member, and from following players and seeing them do well. I enjoy learning the history, and seeing the names and faces, hearing the stories of various sides and players and coaches.

I don't know if that's pride, exactly.
 

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May 1, 2016
28,404
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Carlton
I follow a football team because it is entertaining to do so. I don't take pride in my teams achievements as if they are my own. Plenty of people on here do, no doubt. I would refer them to Schopenhauer.

If you don't have involvement in an achievement it is irrational for you to take pride in it.

You can be proud of other people for their achievements. That is not the same as feeling personal pride for their achievements.
Underrated comment.
 

RobbieK

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Aug 20, 2009
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Look we can round and round in circles, Ok I'll admit that pride in nation can be bad but it is not the only. But that seems to be the immediate reactionary assessment whenever the word 'nationalism' is mentioned.

Nationalism does not and has never meant "pride in a nation". Nationalism is a political ideology that promotes the interests and sovereignty of a particular nation. It started in the 19th century as an ideology of popular sovereignty opposed to monarchism, a liberal ideology, but transformed in the 20th century in to an ideology of divisiveness and exclusion that led to millions of people being killed. As a result is now seen in a negative light.

That you are still puzzled by this is inexplicable.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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There we go. I agree.

Ok I'll be reductive, what we agree on here is all I'm saying.
It might not be the intent, but you wield the word 'emotional' like a claymore the second you think you're on solid ground.

That assessment might be viewed as a little dramatic and no I don't agree with it.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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I follow a football team because it is entertaining to do so. I don't take pride in my teams achievements as if they are my own. Plenty of people on here do, no doubt. I would refer them to Schopenhauer.

If you don't have involvement in an achievement it is irrational for you to take pride in it.

You can be proud of other people for their achievements. That is not the same as feeling personal pride in or for their achievements.

As if they were your own, from that statement I'll assume you think that I think pride in nation is taking personal pride in something one has not achieved. Yes there are many who do hold this position but that is not what I'm alluding to.

I'm happy for my team if they do well, it's an identity thing, not a personal thing. Identifying with a football with no direct involvement may seem irrational but where do you want to draw the line?

How about football itself is irrational? It is not a necessity to survival is it. Yet some would argue it is a necessity to have an attachment to the entertainment dimension of it. There's your Schopenhauer assessment, just bare in mind it is not the only assessment.
 

RobbieK

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As if they were your own, from that statement I'll assume you think that I think pride in nation is taking personal pride in something one has not achieved. Yes there are many who do hold this position but that is not what I'm alluding to.

I'm happy for my team if they do well, it's an identity thing, not a personal thing. Identifying with a football with no direct involvement may seem irrational but where do you want to draw the line?

How about football itself is irrational? It is not a necessity to survival is it. Yet some would argue it is a necessity to have an attachment to the entertainment dimension of it. There's your Schopenhauer assessment, just bare in mind it is not the only assessment.
There is nothing necessary about football.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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Surely you're willing to concede a certain level of flamboyance of language occasionally.

I mean, how boring would life be with everyone stating only the obvious and the necessary?

Actually I was going to say I really enjoy our debating, even given our very differing positions in all sorts of areas and not that I actively seek it either.

Yes I'll concede that my vocab is somewhat 'interesting' at times, I don't see that as a negative though.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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There is nothing necessary about football.

Interesting, there are so many many things that are not necessary to the endth degree or in the absolute. Yet you still follow a football team, I would not think it healthy if you attached some sort of guilt to it.

I would hope that is not your position.

When you gonna sign as a member with us Pies? lol.
 

RobbieK

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Interesting, there are so many many things that are not necessary to the endth degree or in the absolute. Yet you still follow a football team, I would not think it healthy if you attached some sort of guilt to it.

I would hope that is not your position.

When you gonna sign as a member with us Pies? lol.

I don't feel guilty for doing unecessary things in my life. Many unnecessary things are more enjoyable than necessary things.

I find it telling that you are continuing the conversation along this line rather than addressing this post:

Nationalism does not and has never meant "pride in a nation". Nationalism is a political ideology that promotes the interests and sovereignty of a particular nation. It started in the 19th century as an ideology of popular sovereignty opposed to monarchism, a liberal ideology, but transformed in the 20th century in to an ideology of divisiveness and exclusion that led to millions of people being killed. As a result is now seen in a negative light.

That you are still puzzled by this is inexplicable.
 

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Jun 6, 2016
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I don't feel guilty for doing unecessary things in my life. Many unnecessary things are more enjoyable than necessary things.

I find it telling that you are continuing the conversation along this line rather than addressing this post:

Again, you're assuming that I don't understand how language and the context it is used in works. That is not true, again just because I disagree with the sentiment that ones pride in their nation is somewhat 'wrong' does not mean I don't understand it.

Ask yourself, what is your immediate reaction when you hear the word 'nationalism'?

Immediately it's a negative right?

How would that reaction differ to the statement 'I like we're we live and my fellow countrymen'? Bet all money the reaction would be different.

But the sentiment of the term 'nationalism' in it's original definition is not negative at all
 

RobbieK

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Again, you're assuming that I don't understand how language and the context it is used in works. That is not true, again just because I disagree with the sentiment that ones pride in their nation is somewhat 'wrong' does not mean I don't understand it.

Ask yourself, what is your immediate reaction when you hear the word 'nationalism'?

Immediately it's a negative right?

How would that reaction differ to the statement 'I like we're we live and my fellow countrymen'? Bet all money the reaction would be different.

But the sentiment of the term 'nationalism' in it's original definition is not negative at all
"I like where we live and my fellow countrymen" is not the original definition of nationalism.

I'm not sure how many times you need to be told this. You clearly have a massive failure of understanding.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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"I like where we live and my fellow countrymen" is not the original definition of nationalism.

I'm not sure how many times you need to be told this. You clearly have a massive failure of understanding.

The sentiment is the same though.

This is where I think you're confused about my 'understanding'
 
Jun 6, 2016
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No, it really isn't.

Nationalism isn't just a sentiment. It is a political ideology. It isn't just about feeling connection to a nation, it is about that nation's sovereignty and power.

I did not state is was just sentiment, yes the 'definition' is ideological, however that does not dismiss that the sentiment exists or that the sentiment is the same as the ideology.
 

RobbieK

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I did not state is was just sentiment, yes the 'definition' is ideological, however that does not dismiss that the sentiment exists or that the sentiment is the same as the ideology.
Your incoherence is charting new depths.

This thread was misguided from the start because of your fundamental misunderstanding of what nationalism is. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and yet you stand firm in your ignorance. Why? I don't know. It has got to the point of real embarassment for you now, though, so rather than trying to obfuscate your way out of this corner you have backed yourself into, maybe just acknowledge the mistake.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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Your incoherence is charting new depths.

This thread was misguided from the start because of your fundamental misunderstanding of what nationalism is. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and yet you stand firm in your ignorance. Why? I don't know. It has got to the point of real embarassment for you now, though, so rather than trying to obfuscate your way out of this corner you have backed yourself into, maybe just acknowledge the mistake.

Ok I'll dumb it down for you.

My sentiment is that there is nothing wrong or negative with having pride in your nation. I am absolutely not alone in this view.

The definition differs from that sentiment.

So to summarize you're assuming that I don't 'understand' the definition, when in fact all it is, is that I disagree with the sentiment of the current definition.

That would suggest to me, you're blindly defending that 'nationalism' is bad, well yes it is - according to the definition.

But there is zero wrong with the sentiment of being proud of your country. I can't make it any clearer than that, so if you continue to defend the definition rather than actually look at the sentiment then one can only conclude you view 'nationalism' absolutely as the definition and absolutely dismiss any positive sentiment.
 

RobbieK

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Ok I'll dumb it down for you.

My sentiment is that there is nothing wrong or negative with having pride in your nation. I am absolutely not alone in this view.

The definition differs from that sentiment.

So to summarize you're assuming that I don't 'understand' the definition, when in fact all it is, is that I disagree with the sentiment of the current definition.

That would suggest to me, you're blindly defending that 'nationalism' is bad, well yes it is - according to the definition.

But there is zero wrong with the sentiment of being proud of your country. I can't make it any clearer than that, so if you continue to defend the definition rather than actually look at the sentiment then one can only conclude you view 'nationalism' absolutely as the definition and absolutely dismiss any positive sentiment.

If you want to talk about the sentiment of having pride in your nation, by all means do it.

Just don't call that "nationalism", as if nationalism is simply a sense of national pride. Nationalism is, as I have said, a political ideology focused on the sovereignty and power of the nation state. That isn't just my personal hot take, that is the concept as it has been developed by philosophers, political scientists and historians over the past 200 years.
 
Jun 6, 2016
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If you want to talk about the sentiment of having pride in your nation, by all means do it.

Just don't call that "nationalism", as if nationalism is simply a sense of national pride. Nationalism is, as I have said, a political ideology focused on the sovereignty and power of the nation state. That isn't just my personal hot take, that is the concept as it has been developed by philosophers, political scientists and historians over the past 200 years.

Yes, yes it has. So you've admitted that the sentiment is different from the actual definition. Good for you.

Fact remains that 'nationalism' by sentiment is not a negative, only by definition is it 'bad' and just because philosophers and scientists have defined it as something different from the sentiment doesn't make it automatically correct.
 
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