So why only one change to the coaching team?

[RobZombie]

Yeah, I can see the attraction of keeping the coaching side stable when the list is in a state of upheaval, but would have preferred to see an outsider come in to replace Green. Preferably a freshly retired player, and preferably someone from a defensive system we'd want to learn from.

Maybe the right person just wasn't out there. 2017 retired defenders:

Sean Dempster
Lumumba
M Boyd
Murphy
James Kelly
Zac Dawson
Sam Butler
Andrew Mackie
Tom Lonergan
Loogie Hensons

2016 retired defenders:

Matthew Jaensch
Troy Chaplin (assistant at GoDees)
Ted Richards
Daniel Merrett
Alan Toovey
Michael Firrito
Jed Adcock
Matt Dea
Nathan Grima
Alipate Carlile
Corey Enright
Joel Patfull
Nick Malceski

Maybe not a motherlode of coaching talent?

 

[gokangas]

It is a fair question. Must say I like to see new blood coming through and hopefully bringing fresh ideas to the club. Hard to know from the outside just how good (or bad) some coaching staff are. Have to trust I suppose and judge by the outcome.

 

[GarnerSmash]

You could argue that the performance of the team in 14 and 15 indicates that the coaching group is actually pretty good considering they took what was an above average list to back to back prelims. Then age and injury ****ed us in the culo just when the comp was bottoming out in terms of top end opponents. Green getting the arse does indicate that he was poo, but unless you are inside the scrotum it really is hard to know just how good these guys are.

Ultimately it comes down to Delina and Buckley to make the calls.

 

[King Corey]

Yeah, I can see the attraction of keeping the coaching side stable when the list is in a state of upheaval, but would have preferred to see an outsider come in to replace Green. Preferably a freshly retired player, and preferably someone from a defensive system we'd want to learn from.

Maybe the right person just wasn't out there. 2017 retired defenders:

Sean Dempster
Lumumba
M Boyd
Murphy
James Kelly
Zac Dawson
Sam Butler
Andrew Mackie
Tom Lonergan
Loogie Hensons

2016 retired defenders:

Matthew Jaensch
Troy Chaplin (assistant at GoDees)
Ted Richards
Daniel Merrett
Alan Toovey
Michael Firrito
Jed Adcock
Matt Dea
Nathan Grima
Alipate Carlile
Corey Enright
Joel Patfull
Nick Malceski

Maybe not a motherlode of coaching talent?

All of the bolded from a distance would've had a combination of career type and personality (as far as I can tell) to be coaching prospects.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Yeah, I can see the attraction of keeping the coaching side stable when the list is in a state of upheaval, but would have preferred to see an outsider come in to replace Green. Preferably a freshly retired player, and preferably someone from a defensive system we'd want to learn from.

Maybe the right person just wasn't out there. 2017 retired defenders:

Sean Dempster
Lumumba
M Boyd
Murphy
James Kelly
Zac Dawson
Sam Butler
Andrew Mackie
Tom Lonergan
Loogie Hensons

2016 retired defenders:

Matthew Jaensch
Troy Chaplin (assistant at GoDees)
Ted Richards
Daniel Merrett
Alan Toovey
Michael Firrito
Jed Adcock
Matt Dea
Nathan Grima
Alipate Carlile
Corey Enright
Joel Patfull
Nick Malceski

Maybe not a motherlode of coaching talent?

Don’t mind the idea of looking outside ex AFL players as coaches. I know there are some really good coaches in the high level school footy, to top metro & country coaches. I’m sure there’s plenty of good tactical thinkers, or good player developers that just didn’t have the skills required to play at the top level.

 

[RobZombie]

All of the bolded from a distance would've had a combination of career type and personality (as far as I can tell) to be coaching prospects.

Yeah maybe. It was definitely an open question. Some on your list I would have thought not (like Jaench retired "lost passion for footy", can't imagine Murphy being anywhere other than the Dogs, Spud and Narni ready to get out of the pressure of the top level) and a couple missing from your list I would have thought so - Adcock, Patfull, maybe Carlile).

The club would know what they're after though. I really hope it's not penny-pinching.

 

[King Corey]

Yeah maybe. It was definitely an open question. Some on your list I would have thought not (like Jaench retired "lost passion for footy", can't imagine Murphy being anywhere other than the Dogs, Spud and Narni ready to get out of the pressure of the top level) and a couple missing from your list I would have thought so - Adcock, Patfull, maybe Carlile).

The club would know what they're after though. I really hope it's not penny-pinching.

I can live with penny-pinching rather than it being the result of a lack of objective review or a cultural reluctance to having the status quo challenged.

 

[kangaspurs]

Don’t mind the idea of looking outside ex AFL players as coaches. I know there are some really good coaches in the high level school footy, to top metro & country coaches. I’m sure there’s plenty of good tactical thinkers, or good player developers that just didn’t have the skills required to play at the top level.

I completely agree with this.

There are so many examples across many professional sports that suggest that often the best coaches weren't the guys who were the most talented players or those who played at the absolute elite level.

In fact, a while ago I remember reading something that was about how often the coaches who were elite players can struggle to empathise with the struggles of the lesser players and not understand why they can't do the things that they did as we player. Whereas the coaches who were scrubbers are more in tune with the playing ability of those guys.

 

[Donkey Chop]

I completely agree with this.

There are so many examples across many professional sports that suggest that often the best coaches weren't the guys who were the most talented players or those who played at the absolute elite level.

In fact, a while ago I remember reading something that was about how often the coaches who were elite players can struggle to empathise with the struggles of the lesser players and not understand why they can't do the things that they did as we player. Whereas the coaches who were scrubbers are more in tune with the playing ability of those guys.

It has a lot to do with the mindset of the general afl community. I’ts a bit like how a coach that’s been sacked never gets another opportunity. Clubs are too scarred to get it wrong so they’d rather hire a new blood that creates a bit of hype. Take Ratten, Voss, Knights for example they’d make for better coaches now then when they were first appointed, and are probably better options then some of the recent first time coaches.

Take the NFL for example, Belicheck was sacked by the Browns, then hired by the Patriots and he’s probably the best coach around. In the AFL he wouldn’t have gotten a second chance

 

[czero]

Tudor is the forward coach and our forward line was/is functioning pretty well. The biggest problems our forward line has are injuries and the poor midfield delivery. Remember first half of of 2016 how people were analysing the way the forward line worked? The movement was complex and yet still structured well. I think this year if the likes of Wood and Turner (and even Garns) stay fit, and Waite gives us more games than we expect then we'll have another good season from the forward line. Especially with the option to play JZ there more frequently. Tudor seems to be able to use the mobile elements of our forward line well - Jack isn't as mobile but one on one sitting under the ball is his strength and that could fit beautifully with whats there now.

I don't know if our forward line is functioning well. Ben Brown had the record for inside 50 utilisation, which really makes us one dimensional going into attack, and clearly makes us much easier to defend against.

Who takes the responsibility, the forward coach, the midfield coach, or the head coach?

 

[Tas]

You need stability with all your coaches when you are going through with a very youthful changing of the list and minimal changes are good. Building long term relationships with your coaches is important for quicker development

Stability means not changing your coaches like Gold Coast and Brisbane. It doesn't mean you can't make necessary changes.

I am not sure about other assistant roles, but our midfield coaching has been a problem for a long time, hopefully the introduction of some new midfield players, in particular some more outside types, will see us play a better standard but I have my concerns.

My biggest concern is Ziebell. Does the club instruct him to hack it out of the middle or is the club unable to stop him from hacking out of the middle despite being told not to. Either scenario gives me concern about how we are teaching the new players or how are we able to enforce high standards.

Stability may end up harming or hindering the development of players if the coaching is of a poor standard.

 

[Only Forwards]

I would like to hear others opinions on this and whether I am being unfair or off the mark.

I think that we have created a situation where losses are less likely to be questioned.

We cut yet more seniority from the team and did little with the coaches.

I think we are taking the approach of if we win we win but if we don't we're going to net a decent draft pick and some academy/FS discounts.

If we make a decent fist of this year with our kids we will be doing OK. If we don't then we're adding top end talent.

TL;DR lack of shake up is an indication we don't think we're anywhere near it.

 

[ferball]

I don't know if our forward line is functioning well. Ben Brown had the record for inside 50 utilisation, which really makes us one dimensional going into attack, and clearly makes us much easier to defend against.

Who takes the responsibility, the forward coach, the midfield coach, or the head coach?

Brown was the only consistant forward we had because everyone else had injuries. Players like Wood and waite played less than half the season. Thomas did too tho for other reasons. Kayne Turner missed a third of the season. Simpkin too he played just over half the season, tho perhaps he would have played only a few more games with an uninterupted year.

Hrovat played ok considering... JZ's 5 minutes on the forward line were productive.

The last time our forward line was "uninjurred" was the first half of 2016, then it was good. Good pressure, high scoring and hard to defend against...

Frankly coaching isn't the problem with our forward line. Keeping them on the field is.

The coaching problems are in the midfield and that might be due to an actual lack of talent. We'll know more about how well we dealt with that this time next year.

 

[Donkey Chop]

Stability means not changing your coaches like Gold Coast and Brisbane. It doesn't mean you can't make necessary changes.

I am not sure about other assistant roles, but our midfield coaching has been a problem for a long time, hopefully the introduction of some new midfield players, in particular some more outside types, will see us play a better standard but I have my concerns.

My biggest concern is Ziebell. Does the club instruct him to hack it out of the middle or is the club unable to stop him from hacking out of the middle despite being told not to. Either scenario gives me concern about how we are teaching the new players or how are we able to enforce high standards.

Stability may end up harming or hindering the development of players if the coaching is of a poor standard.

Tas, you’re smart enough to know the answer to that. Do you think the club would make someone incapable of following instructions captain?

 

[roos_fanatic08]

With the state of our list I’m more interested in the development coaches. At this stage of our rebuild they are nearly
More important than the senior coach.

 

[tales129]

All of the bolded from a distance would've had a combination of career type and personality (as far as I can tell) to be coaching prospects.

Matthew ******* jaensch could be a coach?

The bloke who quit afl to dominate a second fiddle amateur league and continue to rack up dui’s

 

[ferball]

Statistics are bullshit.

None the less i just went and added up, reasonably accurately, how many goals we would have got with a full season (20 games) from Waite, Wood, Turner and Simpkin if they scored at that rate for the whole season. An extra 50 goals or 48 if you were very conservative.

It would have given us the third highest goal scoring for the year I think. Tho Adelaide seemed to be miles in front for goals in 2017. Over 50 more than the nearest rival, (Geelong) and nearly 60 more than Richmond who were third iirc.

Its not remotely definitive really, but its still interesting and suggests the forward line and injuries might be an issue.

While I was looking at that I looked at way teams had depth, the teams in the finals had more players play over 20 games. Seems obvious enough I spose cos they play more games...

But Richmond and Adelaide had more players, predominantly forwards, with over 20 games and over 20 goals. Often significantly more than 20 goals. We had a group of forwards who had under (or in one case just over 20 goals) and up to who missed between a third and half the season for one reason or another. They'd all be over 20 and closer to 30 with a full/20 game season. Waite 40 or over most likely.

I'm not counting Lindsay Thomas in all this either. But before last season he'd played 20 games and kicked over 30 goals (sometimes well over that) every year since 2012 when he played 19 games and kicked 38.

Looking at the forward line - with no injuries and Thomas in form our forward line in 2017 would have performed alot better. So if someone has to take responsibility its in regard those 2 things. Lindsay is gone (and here's to him) and the club seems to be moving in a different direction regarding injuries. Seems like realistic and responsible responsibility is being taken.

With no injuries using the calculations I used at the start of the post and 20 goals from Thomas (which would be lower than any season he has played except his first in 2007. It was 10 goals from 12 games,) we would be clearly the second highest scoring team for the year.

So it seems the forward ain't line that bad in itself.

 

[ferball]

Also - we lost 5 games by under 3 goals and one by just over 3 goals. So an extra 20 goals across those games would have seen us on 12 wins and with an extra 50 goals probably a high enough percentage to scrape into the 8, (plus who knows how many of those games we lost by 5 - 8 goals would have been different. Probably only one so still a bottom 4 in the 8 position.) Highly unlikely we would have challenged for a flag.

So the silver lining to those injuries is probably LDU if he becomes a good player.

 

[Tas]

Tas, you’re smart enough to know the answer to that. Do you think the club would make someone incapable of following instructions captain?

I don't know... because if we are smart enough to appoint someone capable of following instructions as the captain, then he aint getting the instructions and frankly, that is a far worse scenario. If it was just Ziebell it would be an easy fix, if it isn't Ziebell then what exactly is the problem and who is to blame?

Whichever door the answer is behind isn't a great result for out club. Hopefully, whoever is at fault can address the problem over the pre-season. I mean, this is just one of the captain obvious problems and it has been a problem year after year, some of our more dire midfield problems are a lot more subtle but cumulative result in making it difficult for us to reach and sustain a high standard.

 

[Snake_Baker]

It's just not an issue at the present moment.

 

[Horizons_00]

Brown was the only consistant forward we had because everyone else had injuries. Players like Wood and waite played less than half the season. Thomas did too tho for other reasons. Kayne Turner missed a third of the season. Simpkin too he played just over half the season, tho perhaps he would have played only a few more games with an uninterupted year.

Hrovat played ok considering... JZ's 5 minutes on the forward line were productive.

The last time our forward line was "uninjurred" was the first half of 2016, then it was good. Good pressure, high scoring and hard to defend against...

Frankly coaching isn't the problem with our forward line. Keeping them on the field is.

The coaching problems are in the midfield and that might be due to an actual lack of talent. We'll know more about how well we dealt with that this time next year.

This is why I thought they would get some new staff in for injury/conditioning/strength because clearly whatever we are doing now is not working that well (without having bad luck of course)

.... kangatech

 

[Rockstar6]

Stability means not changing your coaches like Gold Coast and Brisbane. It doesn't mean you can't make necessary changes.

I am not sure about other assistant roles, but our midfield coaching has been a problem for a long time, hopefully the introduction of some new midfield players, in particular some more outside types, will see us play a better standard but I have my concerns.

My biggest concern is Ziebell. Does the club instruct him to hack it out of the middle or is the club unable to stop him from hacking out of the middle despite being told not to. Either scenario gives me concern about how we are teaching the new players or how are we able to enforce high standards.

Stability may end up harming or hindering the development of players if the coaching is of a poor standard.

Uhhh...... Gold Coast and Brisbane have not only changed coaches but have changed head coaches very, very recently. Personally, I hated it everytime Ziebell hacked it out of the middle and as to whether or not he was instructed to do that or not I don't think we will find out. I want Ziebell to play the majority of his time up forward because of the new players and depth we have in the midfield.

 

[ferball]

This is why I thought they would get some new staff in for injury/conditioning/strength because clearly whatever we are doing now is not working that well (without having bad luck of course)

.... kangatech

I actually thought they had done something more than no more Saunders and a bit of ballet to deal with injuries but I can't find any reference to it. I might have been wrong about that.

Dunno how much is luck, how much is poor management and how many of our players are actually injury prone.

 

[GarnerSmash]

I actually thought they had done something more than no more Saunders and a bit of ballet to deal with injuries but I can't find any reference to it. I might have been wrong about that.

Dunno how much is luck, how much is poor management and how many of our players are actually injury prone.

Brought in a bloke (Scott Dickinson) last year who ran the Dutch Olympic team program but he has since been let go, with Jona Segal taking over the High Performance Manager role. Steve Saunders is now a consultant.

 

[Gasometer]

Andrew Mackie