Soccer tying to bludge off the Australian Taxpayer again!

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Gigantor

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Its a stupid point. It wasnt gifted to anyone - they rent the damn place.

Its even more stupid when you consider the total number of grants paid to AFL club training facilities in Melbourne, plus AFLW facitilies, plus 185m in government funded Kardinia Park upgrades, plus 160m in government funded MCG upgrades would dwarf any amount spent on Aami Park - which is used by 5 rectangular code teams in national competition AND the Demons.
It's an important point.
Melbourne's two major stadiums are paid for via private debt

Do you honestly believe that Docklands came about by osmosis?
The AFL drove it. They sold Waverley to put in the equity (which they completely owned and funded themselves I might add).
They had the buy-leaseback plan in place with the private consortium to eventually take over full ownership of the stadium.
Now let us contrast that situation with every other football code, where the expectation is that stadiums are paid for from the public purse AND they then complain bitterly about having to pay a rent which goes about half way to paying off the stadium over its life!
In fact the $160 million spend on the MCG is NOT dwarfed by the cost of building Melbourne Rectangular Stadium, and is a small fraction of what it cost to completely re-build the MCG.
So yeh, don't worry, it's an important point.
 

The_Wookie

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It's an important point.
its not.

Melbourne's two major stadiums are paid for via private debt
Rod laver, Hisense and John Cain arenas arent. Kardina Park isnt. The AFL is an exception, not the rule. And lets not talk about the fact that the MCC pays rent to the Trust who gives it back to them....OR that the AFL pays upwards of 8m a year for rent at the MCG OUTSIDE match day costs paid by the host clubs. All private debt though.

Do you honestly believe that Docklands came about by osmosis?
Did I say it did?

The AFL drove it. They sold Waverley to put in the equity (which they completely owned and funded themselves I might add).
They sold waverly. they paid for the land, not for the stadium, and not for some years after the sale.

They had the buy-leaseback plan in place with the private consortium to eventually take over full ownership of the stadium.
No sh*t.

Now let us contrast that situation with every other football code, where the expectation is that stadiums are paid for from the public purse AND they then complain bitterly about having to pay a rent which goes about half way to paying off the stadium over its life!
You know who else complains about the rent? pretty much everyone who rents.

In fact the $160 million spend on the MCG is NOT dwarfed by the cost of building Melbourne Rectangular Stadium, and is a small fraction of what it cost to completely re-build the MCG.
Apparently you missed the rest of that goddamned sentence which included the 185m for Kardinia Park, hundreds of millions in club facility funding and more. In fact.

and even if it was, its utterly irrelevant.

So yeh, don't worry, it's an important point.
No its not. And its borderline pathetic how people carry on about. Major stadium infrastracture is government owned and built as a rule. The AFL chose this path at Docklands, it doesnt mean everyone else has to if the Government is willing to rent facilities to them. hell its not like the AFL doesnt rent the MCG AND pay towards the infrastructure there.
 
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Kwality

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Our Game IIRC used to say it a lot pre-pandemic, usually in reference to any sort of funding war on a stadium.

he would be supported by others as well.
This thread is a great example of a codes fans putting other sports down. Pile on merchants !!
Are these people really sports fans?
 
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Gigantor

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Major stadium infrastracture is government owned and built as a rule.
That's precisely what I'm highlighting isn't it?
The one exception is the AFL...correct! That's what I'm highlighting! That is the important point.
Soccer people expect government to be building them soccer specific stadiums, please don't try and tell me that you weren't aware of that.
In relation to Docklands, the AFL made it happen. Both the NRL and soccer choose to rely 100% on government funding. Not 50%, or 80%, or 90%, but 100%. They both could, if they wanted to, go down the exact same route the AFL went down, but no, they prefer to go to government, and in soccer's case, whinge incessantly about not getting a good deal out of government.
In relation to the MCG, anyone wish to hazard a guess what sustains Melbourne's capacity to maintain a stadium with a 100,000 capacity with minimal government funding?
Anyone wish to compare this situation with what is currently happening in Sydney?
 

Gigantor

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The role of the State Government guarantee was a significant factor in the deal to keep the AFL Grand Final in Melbourne.
That's not the full picture if you go back to the birth of the idea of the VFL building its own stadium out at Waverley (self-funded).
The State Government absolutely bludgeoned the VFL into keeping the grand final at the MCG.
Now most footy fans would agree that we are better off with two good stadiums in and around the CBD, but still, it's worth reminding ourselves that if the AFL had stuck with Waverley, where the MCG would be today.
 

Kwality

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That's not the full picture if you go back to the birth of the idea of the VFL building its own stadium out at Waverley (self-funded).
The State Government absolutely bludgeoned the VFL into keeping the grand final at the MCG.
Now most footy fans would agree that we are better off with two good stadiums in and around the CBD, but still, it's worth reminding ourselves that if the AFL had stuck with Waverley, where the MCG would be today.
I dont see that (Waverley) as a factor in the national comp, although I agree with your commentary.
 

The_Wookie

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That's precisely what I'm highlighting isn't it?
The one exception is the AFL...correct! That's what I'm highlighting! That is the important point.
Its thoroughly unimportant except in dick measuring contests like this.

Soccer people expect government to be building them soccer specific stadiums, please don't try and tell me that you weren't aware of that.
And you know who else does? Everybody else does.

In relation to Docklands, the AFL made it happen.
With the Governments imprimatur. If the Government hadnt been giving away land for a song - and it very much was - then docklands wouldnt have happened either. The agreement between the Victorian Government and AFL was struck before the stadium was put to tender.

Both the NRL and soccer choose to rely 100% on government funding. Not 50%, or 80%, or 90%, but 100%.
Again, like every other sport in the country. Theres nothing wrong with this.

They both could, if they wanted to, go down the exact same route the AFL went down, but no, they prefer to go to government,
As does every other sport in the country, including the AFL.

and in soccer's case, whinge incessantly about not getting a good deal out of government.
Which has everything to do with the type of stadiums being built, most of which favour AFL/Cricket stadiums in AFL states. Not to mention tens of millions in additional funding for regional and local facitlities barely more than training accessories for AFL clubs. Theres a fair bone to be picked there if all things are considered.

In relation to the MCG, anyone wish to hazard a guess what sustains Melbourne's capacity to maintain a stadium with a 100,000 capacity with minimal government funding?
No, because we're all ignorant idiots on this forum who have never seen any of the countless discussions on the financing of the MCG before. /s

Anyone wish to compare this situation with what is currently happening in Sydney?
Again, this is NORMAL in Australian sport.

The MCG/Docklands scenarios are the exceptions. NSW and QLD every major stadium is government owned and rented out. Optus Stadium, NIB Stadium, RAC Arena, Hindmarsh Stadium, Adelaide Oval, Adelaide Entertainment Centre, are all Government owned and rented (although the details vary from sport to sport). In Victoria, Aami Park, Rod Laver Arena, Hisense Arena, John Cain Arena, Kardinia Park are all public assets.

Even in Victoria, the MCG is government owned, and rented by the MCC - the difference is the rent is mostly handed back to be invested back in the MCG.

So sure, the Vic Government has found a model that works for it at the MCG. It doesnt have to at every goddamn stadium in the country.
 

The_Wookie

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That's not the full picture if you go back to the birth of the idea of the VFL building its own stadium out at Waverley (self-funded).
The State Government absolutely bludgeoned the VFL into keeping the grand final at the MCG.
Sure, the Grand Final. Not the rest of the season. The VFL went willingly, and it was the VFL that approached the MCC first. And clubs happily signed contracts to play at the MCG.

The league didnt have the finances or the backing to upgrade its own stadium until at least 2002, and by then the stadium wasnt just due for an overhaul, but a total rebuild.

Now most footy fans would agree that we are better off with two good stadiums in and around the CBD, but still, it's worth reminding ourselves that if the AFL had stuck with Waverley, where the MCG would be today.
Probably right where the MCG is now, just with more Government funding. The AFL fills it once a year. Theres a few decent size events there outside the AFL too to keep the coffers turning over.
 

NoobPie

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Its thoroughly unimportant except in dick measuring contests like this.
It is thoroughly important when objecting to claims the AFL is some exceptional beneficiary of stadium investment. The opposite is true

And you know who else does? Everybody else does.
Actually, nobody else does. He is talking about lobbying for stadiums that even exclude the rugby codes hence "soccer specific"

With the Governments imprimatur. If the Government hadnt been giving away land for a song - and it very much was - then docklands wouldnt have happened either. The agreement between the Victorian Government and AFL was struck before the stadium was put to tender.
Giving away "land for a song" is standard practice in civic redevelopments.


Again, like every other sport in the country. Theres nothing wrong with this.
Again, given the AFL is the only sport that has regularly contributed to stadium builds, it is risible to suggest it gets a better deal than sports that contribute nothing

As does every other sport in the country, including the AFL.
Except the AFL more typically contributes some or most of the capital


Which has everything to do with the type of stadiums being built, most of which favour AFL/Cricket stadiums in AFL states. Not to mention tens of millions in additional funding for regional and local facitlities barely more than training accessories for AFL clubs. Theres a fair bone to be picked there if all things are considered.
Really? What's that?

These contributions nearly always involve the clubs maintaining an asset made available for community use

Also, soccer and rugby codes have played on all the major AFL / Cricket stadium in AFL states (including those built with AFL money)

No, because we're all ignorant idiots on this forum who have never seen any of the countless discussions on the financing of the MCG before. /s

Again, this is NORMAL in Australian sport.

The MCG/Docklands scenarios are the exceptions. NSW and QLD every major stadium is government owned and rented out. Optus Stadium, NIB Stadium, RAC Arena, Hindmarsh Stadium, Adelaide Oval, Adelaide Entertainment Centre, are all Government owned and rented (although the details vary from sport to sport). In Victoria, Aami Park, Rod Laver Arena, Hisense Arena, John Cain Arena, Kardinia Park are all public assets.

Even in Victoria, the MCG is government owned, and rented by the MCC - the difference is the rent is mostly handed back to be invested back in the MCG.

So sure, the Vic Government has found a model that works for it at the MCG. It doesnt have to at every goddamn stadium in the country.
The point is it is the AFL allows for government not to have to significantly contribute to those two stadiums. It was also totally true of football park and significantly true of Subiaco. The reasons the AFL contributed little to nothing to AO and perth stadium was a fair amount due to the alternative available to football in those states (and the government in WA not having signed up football before building)

The Vic gov didn't "find a model" so much as got blessed with Australian football and the AFL and its fan culture.

The reality is that the AFL stands alone as a major contributor to stadiums because of a superior attendance culture and financial acumen and capacity
 

Gigantor

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None of the clubs playing there paid anything to build it!
The MCC and AFL on the other hand pay for a big % of improvements to the MCG stadium.
Correct.
This is the key point.
Even Wookie himself, in arguing against me said straight out that the AFL is the exception.
Correct. That IS the point! The AFL is the eception.
It's not just the majority funding of the largest stadium in Australia built with minimal government funding.
It's not just the next best stadium in Melbourne, built with zero government funding (yes folks, you have read that correctly, built with zero government funding).
It's the other stadiums around Australia where the AFL has made contributions towards building or refurbishment, ranging between 10% to 20% but with zero ownership stake.
Lastly, the soccer folk would have you believe that it's predominantly the AFL who goes cap in hand to government for money for stadiums.
There is an argument that the reverse is true - that governments go cap in hand to the AFL. Why? Because AFL games can generate the revenue to pay off a stadium over its life.
 

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BobbyMorri

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Correct.
This is the key point.
Even Wookie himself, in arguing against me said straight out that the AFL is the exception.
Correct. That IS the point! The AFL is the eception.
It's not just the majority funding of the largest stadium in Australia built with minimal government funding.
It's not just the next best stadium in Melbourne, built with zero government funding (yes folks, you have read that correctly, built with zero government funding).
It's the other stadiums around Australia where the AFL has made contributions towards building or refurbishment, ranging between 10% to 20% but with zero ownership stake.
Lastly, the soccer folk would have you believe that it's predominantly the AFL who goes cap in hand to government for money for stadiums.
There is an argument that the reverse is true - that governments go cap in hand to the AFL. Why? Because AFL games can generate the revenue to pay off a stadium over its life.
the AFL is the biggest sporting monopoly in this country. Of course, they have the finances to do things other sports can not. Perhaps only Cricket has that type of political power, but not the financial power.

But you are deluded to think the AFL doesn't get its share of public funding. Just drive down the highway to Geelong to see that.

and you are deluded if you think AAMI Park is any different to the majority of AFL venus in this country.

To use a "neutral" sport as an example. The NBL are not getting a "gift" of a new Indoor arena down in Hobart this year. They are providing a new team down here, which will pay rent and provide economic activity in Hobart(Glenorchy) both inside and outside of NBL season. It is a win-win for both

How is that any different to GWS and how they were set up? Or AAMI, which is the home of 4-5 clubs.
 

Aucklander

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I missed the relevance of your comments to the fans in the reply you quoted.
The people and sports who the stadium was built for will more than pay for the cost of the stadium along with generating millions of dollars back into the Victorian economy. Haters gonna hate and that's where finders sits.
 

Gigantor

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How is that any different to GWS and how they were set up? Or AAMI, which is the home of 4-5 clubs.
GWS ended up using a pre-existing facility that once lay fallow for much of the year.
The AFL provided some 15% of what was otherwise a relatively small cost to refurbish it, for which the AFL gets zero ownership stake.
In the case of Adelaide Oval, you don't think the state Government is begging the AFL to come to the table to actually pay for a new Adelaide Oval, otherwise, there is no new Adelaide Oval (and the same goes for the new Perth Oval).
The AFL benefits in being able to continue having large crowds, but it's those large crowds which make these stadiums possible.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, you have soccer, begging government to build them soccer specific stadiums, in the hope that one day in the future they might attract more than family and friends to their games.
Cricket can't pay for these large stadiums, from very early on in Australian Football history, they have relied on the attendances of Australian Football to pay for their stadiums.
 

Gigantor

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The people and sports who the stadium was built for will more than pay for the cost of the stadium along with generating millions of dollars back into the Victorian economy. Haters gonna hate and that's where finders sits.
IN the case of these new stadiums being builit in Sydney, you are dreaming if you think they will ever get paid off by the meagre crowds they get.
But that's not the worst of it, on top of these new big stadiums Sydney gets built out of the public purse, the NRL wants all the surburban grounds to be fully re-built so that the NRL can continue hosting games there as well.
 

NoobPie

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The people and sports who the stadium was built for will more than pay for the cost of the stadium along with generating millions of dollars back into the Victorian economy.
While the second claim is more than debatable the first claim is absurdly wrong
 

BobbyMorri

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In the case of Adelaide Oval, you don't think the state Government is begging the AFL to come to the table to actually pay for a new Adelaide Oval, otherwise, there is no new Adelaide Oval (and the same goes for the new Perth Oval).
How is that any different to the Jackjumpers(neutral example again). State gov went begging to NBL, Jackjumpers will be the major tenant and pay rent.

Its a Chicken and the egg scenario. One doesn't happen without the other. Lets put it this way, how would Port be travelling right now if they stayed at Football Park. Win-Win.

It wouldn't have been built without the AFL. So what. Is the AFL only worthy of new stadia

At the opposite end of the spectrum, you have soccer, begging government to build them soccer specific stadiums, in the hope that one day in the future they might attract more than family and friends to their games.
So yes, only the AFL is worthy(in your view). Whatever. Hope you enjoy the womens world cup in 2023, this year's SoO and the Bledisloe Cup, for the annual loss to the Kiwi's.

AFL plays at Boot Park. Cricket plays on the Docklands. Perth Oval hosts the Glory. And if it is big enough, Optus Oval. SoO happens at the MCG. Sports share.
 

Kwality

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Reality is sports tourism on all levels.
Hard to gauge unless you are trying to get a bed, e.g once when I attended a GP in Adelaide the best I could do was a bed in Murray Bridge (yes, it was a late decision to go from Perth).

There is a payback beyond attendances, try & get a bed in Bathurst this weekend:
Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia Hotel Search Results (wotif.com)
 

Aucklander

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IN the case of these new stadiums being builit in Sydney, you are dreaming if you think they will ever get paid off by the meagre crowds they get.
But that's not the worst of it, on top of these new big stadiums Sydney gets built out of the public purse, the NRL wants all the surburban grounds to be fully re-built so that the NRL can continue hosting games there as well.
Couldn't care less about Sydney.

AAMI Park has drawn thousands of people to it and will continue to do so.
 

Gigantor

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Couldn't care less about Sydney.

AAMI Park has drawn thousands of people to it and will continue to do so.
Incredibly, it's getting more use than any other rectangular stadium in Australia (which tells you everything you need to know).
But even that much is not enough to pay for it.
 

BringBackTorps

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the AFL is the biggest sporting monopoly in this country. Of course, they have the finances to do things other sports can not
Why should the AFL be the only sport that provides significant funding for stadia development?
Or do you think the AFL should be "punished" (by applying double standards on funding/ more govt. money for other codes) because the Australian game is such a popular sport?

AF requires huge funding for many more suburban ovals in Sydney, because of the shortage of GR AF ovals there (& many underused RL & RU grounds).

Or do you think it would be ok for the AFL to be financially profligate, then demand govt. funding for its "needs"? Don't draw the AFL down to the lowest common denominator of the other sports.

Other sports should "cut their cloth" to suit their needs & priorities- & be efficient with how they spend their own limited moneys.

Examples

. the NRL should not be expecting the NSW govt. to spend many hundreds of millions/billion of $ on poorly patronised Sydney NRL suburban grounds.
If they want such major upgrades to numerous Sydney NRL suburban grounds, the NRL should fund it themselves by:-

a. cutting their funding of NRL clubs- & diverting this funding to Sydney suburban stadia development.

b. stipulating that these suburban NRL clubs that have affiliated pokie clubs, then these pokie clubs' funding of the NRL club should be diverted: to local stadium development ie not to the NRL clubs' activities.

. A League clubs should not be seeking govt. funding for rectangular stadia, for the exclusive use of soccer.

. all A League, NRL & RA clubs should respect the taxpayers' precious funds, & not demand large, rectangular stadia.


AF is making great progress in GR Club & school comp. nos. in all of Greater Sydney (excluding the Penrith District RL comp.); & the Gold Coast- Greater Brisbane-Sunshine Coast corridors. Male club contact RL & RU has collapsed in those areas.

As it is very likely this AF progress will continue for many decades, AF & the AFL will become much more popular. Only large oval stadia, therefore, should, generally, be built from 2021- since large oval stadia can accomodate AF, cricket, RL, RU, & soccer large pro matches.
Sydney already has rectangular Bankwest (30k capacity) & SFS (45k capacity)- with ANZ(82k) big enough for the bigger matches in RL, RU, soccer, cricket, & AF.
Brisbane has rectangular Suncorp (capacity 52K).

The former Olympic oval stadia in Rome, Munich, London (Wembley) all host pro tier 1 soccer team- possibly other Olympic stadia in other countries also.
If these oval stadia are good enough for these countries to play their very popular tier 1 soccer games etc., they are adequate, also, for soccer, RL, & RU in Australia.
 
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