Play Nice Society, Religion & Politics Thread

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BruceFromBalnarring

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BruceFromBalnarring

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Yeah no surprises. Make a stupid claim then dodge out of it any way you can.
I'm sorry. You wanted a year by year breakdown of deaths due to atheist ideology. That's a stupid request by any standard. I'm on here for social interaction, mostly about footy, but occasionally venturing into these other subjects. But I've done this kind of thing before. Spent hours providing evidence of a matter only to have the goalposts shifted or the terms of the debate unilaterally changed. So if you want the breakdown, and remember it was your request, then in good faith you provide the same. You set the delineations between the geopolitical and the religious ideology so we're arguing on the same terms.

Were the Crusades about religion or about land and wealth? What about "The Troubles"?

Have you got Hitler in as a christian or an atheist? What about Stalin?

You'd better understand your subject before you head down this path. Because I do.
 

Kummerspeck

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I'm sorry. You wanted a year by year breakdown of deaths due to atheist ideology. That's a stupid request by any standard.
It is, it deliberately is because you can't provide deaths motivated by a lack of a belief in a God.

I'm on here for social interaction, mostly about footy, but occasionally venturing into these other subjects. But I've done this kind of thing before. Spent hours providing evidence of a matter only to have the goalposts shifted or the terms of the debate unilaterally changed. So if you want the breakdown, and remember it was your request, then in good faith you provide the same. You set the delineations between the geopolitical and the religious ideology so we're arguing on the same terms.
Hey, heres an idea, you made the claim so you provide evidence of it. If your only backing is, "The Soviet Union had no state religion so any deaths under it are attributable to atheism", then we can stop.
 

Kummerspeck

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Read Pospielovsky.

Read up on the Red Terror.

Read up on Mao’s Great Leap Forward.

Read up on Pol Pot.
Assume I'm completely ignorant of all of that. What killings occurred in the name of a lack of a belief in a deity? Plenty of famine, plenty of crushing of resistance to totalitarian states, a bit of sparrow killing. Where's the atheism-based violence?
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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Assume I'm completely ignorant of all of that. What killings occurred in the name of a lack of a belief in a deity? Plenty of famine, plenty of crushing of resistance to totalitarian states, a bit of sparrow killing. Where's the atheism-based violence?
If you’re completely ignorant of all of that then you’re not qualified to debate the issue. I don’t intend to play this game.

No mass killings have their causes defined down to a single issue, religious or otherwise. You are playing and old and boring game here of putting religious perpetrated violence down solely to religion but other violence against the religious will have a multitude of causes. It’s garbage.

I said various atheist leaders haven’t covered themselves in glory, in response to the assertion that religious believers should be excluded from public life.

Define what you’re arguing here, and give examples.
 

Kummerspeck

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I

No mass killings have their causes defined down to a single issue, religious or otherwise. You are playing and old and boring game here of putting religious perpetrated violence down solely to religion but other violence against the religious will have a multitude of causes. It’s garbage..
I'm not talking about violence against the religious, I'm talking about atheism-based violence. At this point you've all but admitted that there has been no violence with atheism at its core, but I'm interest in what you consider to be violence with atheism as a contributing factor.
 

Bloodied52

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I support child protection interventions against parents who refuse to protect their kids with vaccinations. I am now coming to the view that the State should try and protect kids from religions. Not to the point of child protection interventions but certainly not subsidising inculcation of religious claptrap..
 

BruceFromBalnarring

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I'm not talking about violence against the religious, I'm talking about atheism-based violence. At this point you've all but admitted that there has been no violence with atheism at its core, but I'm interest in what you consider to be violence with atheism as a contributing factor.
Any violence perpetrated by an atheist on a religious person because of their religion.
 

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That's a very loose definition. You could count the Holocaust as vegetarian violence under the same parameters.
No looser than than the definition applied to religious based violence. The point is, my point was never about that. You made it about that. My point was that atheists don't necessarily make better leaders, especially when the religious are specifically excluded, which was the position I was responding to advocated by Bloodied.
 

Bloodied52

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No looser than than the definition applied to religious based violence. The point is, my point was never about that. You made it about that. My point was that atheists don't necessarily make better leaders, especially when the religious are specifically excluded, which was the position I was responding to advocated by Bloodied.
My problem with religioids in positions of power is their tendency to give primacy to their religious beliefs in the application of power. Abortion law reform, recognition of gays, euthanasia etc have long been held up by politicians adhering to strange belief systems. Australia is a good example of a country where the delays and obstacles to reform on social questions can be put down to religioids who were out of step with what the population wanted.

For people like Abbott, Kevin Andrews and ScuMo, their first loyalty is to their religious beliefs and constituents - be these be Pell or the Hillsong huckster.

There would be merit to a constitutional change requiring any candidate for political office to declare if they are religious and if successful, they will not make decisions or vote on the basis of their religious beliefs.
 
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