Roast Soft.Soft.Soft!

[ant555]

Unless he starts making finals....... and this year should have been a given he'll be in the Terry Wallace mode.

So much promise and excuses with very little results.

So you are saying that we have to judge Knights on the result of one win or loss this week ?

The problem you have is you grossly over rated the list and thought we where top 4 material.
Don't worry the fact that there have been a couple of games that we should have won but did not has not gone without notice.
Despite media specualtion there has not been any actuall contract talks but there may have been if we had been heading into this week with 12 1/2 wins.
You also have to remember that things may have been a bit different with Hille and also if McVeigh, Reimers and Welsh had not missed a massive part of pre season as there form slump has been becasue they did not have the preperation to play at their best.

What happens in the first 15 games next year will decide what happens unless we win this week and go a couple of weeks into the finals.
If we do no good next year then he won't be here but it still won't change the fact that he did not have the tools to work with.

 

[Smyth94]

All of that because of a reasonable assumption?

Regressed? No. Moved ahead? Jury is still out. Sheedy won 10 games in his last season, Knights is less than that.

How can you say we haven't moved ahead???

James Hird won our B'n'F, Lloyd + Lucas kicked 120 goals between them, we had players on our list who were finishing up their careers (JJ, Pev, Rama, Mal, Bolton, MJ etc) yet were still performing reasonably well.

2007 was also one of the few injury free years we've had for the past 5 years.

I have no doubt that we'll be able to make the finals next year, and with any luck keep our injury list to a minimum.

 

[DaSawx]

James Hird won the B&F in Sheedy's last season. Knights has not had acess to a player of that quality.

Not to mention Scotty Lucas in near AA form and a 3 time Premiership player at FB.

 

[Pevers-Legend]

All of that because of a reasonable assumption?

Regressed? No. Moved ahead? Jury is still out. Sheedy won 10 games in his last season, Knights is less than that.

We had a deadcat bounce year with Sheedy's last - Hird got us over the line in around 4 games that year and Scotty had a huge year.

Knights has not had a consistent run without huge injury lists and importnalty the senior players have all struggled with injury.

Would love to see the B&F in 2007 vs the last two years. That might explain a bit.

 

[yodellinhank]

James Hird won the B&F in Sheedy's last season. Knights has not had acess to a player of that quality.

And Sheedy never had full access to the talent that was on the list but still being developed. Knights has benefitted from the low draft picks that were a result of the ebb in our performance.

 

[GoldenboyHird_5]

And Sheedy never had full access to the talent that was on the list but still being developed. Knights has benefitted from the low draft picks that were a result of the ebb in our performance.

Yep Laycock, Myers and Gumbleton have all been completely injury free and available for Knights to use.

You are an idiot mate

 

[yodellinhank]

Yep Laycock, Myers and Gumbleton have all been completely injury free and available for Knights to use.

You are an idiot mate

I'm talking of the development of the likes of Ryder and Dempsey (who incidentally wasn't exactly free of injury for Sheeds). 90-100 odd games of development into Stanton and Watson. Access to players like Pears and Hurley. My point is Sheedy was left over with the remnants of 2000 and stuff all else. We were banned from the first rounds of the draft in 1999, and had bad picks from 2000-2004 in comparison to the 05-08+ drafts that Knights has benefitted from.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

So you are saying that we have to judge Knights on the result of one win or loss this week ?

The problem you have is you grossly over rated the list and thought we where top 4 material.
Don't worry the fact that there have been a couple of games that we should have won but did not has not gone without notice.
Despite media specualtion there has not been any actuall contract talks but there may have been if we had been heading into this week with 12 1/2 wins.
You also have to remember that things may have been a bit different with Hille and also if McVeigh, Reimers and Welsh had not missed a massive part of pre season as there form slump has been becasue they did not have the preperation to play at their best.

What happens in the first 15 games next year will decide what happens unless we win this week and go a couple of weeks into the finals.
If we do no good next year then he won't be here but it still won't change the fact that he did not have the tools to work with.

I'm not judging him based on one result. I'm judging him on the debacles that were North, Adelaide, Richmond, WCE and Freo. Possibly Hawthorn depending on how it goes.

My beef is you can't make multiple mistakes now and just wear it. It shows to me that if we are challenging we'll make mistakes then and thus miss good opportunities.

As for the list if it required that much work as you proclaim then he hasn't made the right decisions regarding Lucas and Lloyd and possibly Fletcher. There was opportunity to trade and and try improve the list but nothing has been done.

You either go full bore one way or the other. You can't sit in the middle after half your tenure and say "Oops, I misread it".

If you look at lists and players then you cannot sit here objectively and say the likes of Carlton and Brisbane are ahead of us yet they are playing finals.

Anyway, he'll be coach next year. Just making the 8 is not good enough for me. We should be aiming top 4 and pushing all the way like Adelaide this year with Hille back and good preseasons into Winderlich,McVeigh,Neagle,Welsh and a few more.

Personally I've stamped his papers and think the only way we'll get a flag is similar to Worsfold who got lucky with a gun midfield. We have to get lucky with players to win a flag under Knights imo.

ps. I'm done one the Knights thing. Add that to Myers and Stanton.

 

[The Donners]

James Hird won the B&F in Sheedy's last season. Knights has not had acess to a player of that quality.

Ant, to be perfectly honest, I thought Hird's B&F in '07 was a parting gift.

No, Knights hasn't had access to a quality player of Hird's calibre. May I remind you that Collingwood lost Buckley the same year and are currently sitting in the top 4.

Ryder has been Essendon's best ruckman since Simon Madden and Knights has had him at his disposal (obviously so did Sheedy but as a 19-20 year old).

 

[fishguts]

How the **** was Adelaide a debacle, not much you can do when a team can't miss.

 

[fishguts]

Ant, to be perfectly honest, I thought Hird's B&F in '07 was a parting gift.

No, Knights hasn't had access to a quality player of Hird's calibre. May I remind you that Collingwood lost Buckley the same year and are currently sitting in the top 4.

Ryder has been Essendon's best ruckman since Simon Madden and Knights has had him at his disposal (obviously so did Sheedy but as a 19-20 year old).

He's had him for 15 odd games and his only 22, are you really comparing Ryder to Hird?

 

[fishguts]

Look guys, obviously you're all still pissed, but let's leave this for another day, enjoy the atmosphere and the week, pretty much the biggest game since our last final. This thread has just turned into a mud slinging fight.

 

[yodellinhank]

How the **** was Adelaide a debacle, not much you can do when a team can't miss.

Tyson Edwards 41 disposals. I can't remember anyone going near him at the stoppages, he waltzed it out. Maybe it was a spirit of the 300th game thing. Seems to have been a thing this year, with older players maybe not being paid enough respect. Harvey did it to us and so did Cousins.

It must also be said, though, almost every time we win a game, the opposition claim to have been out-coached by Knights. The St Kilda game is a perfect example of the players putting a plan into place, sticking with it and achieving fantastic results.

 

[The Donners]

He's had him for 15 odd games and his only 22, are you really comparing Ryder to Hird?

Read into it what you like, I clearly wasn't comparing Ryder to Hird in terms of playing ability per se, moreso the importance that Ryder is to Essendon. As a pure ruckman, Hille is average, Ryder is a budding champion ruck!

 

[Super Gusto]

I'm talking of the development of the likes of Ryder and Dempsey (who incidentally wasn't exactly free of injury for Sheeds). 90-100 odd games of development into Stanton and Watson. Access to players like Pears and Hurley. My point is Sheedy was left over with the remnants of 2000 and stuff all else. We were banned from the first rounds of the draft in 1999, and had bad picks from 2000-2004 in comparison to the 05-08+ drafts that Knights has benefitted from.

Who's fault was this??? Sheedy had a huge amount of influence over the recruiting in this time and many bad decisions were made.

Darren Walsh, Tristan Cartledge, Kepler Bradley, Nash, Andrew Lee, Paul Thomas, Ty Zantuck, Camporeale, Chris Heffernan, Tom Hislop, Mal Michael - to name a few.

As mentioned before - our last two drafts have been very good and the players seem to be developing well.

Time will tell but please don;t tell me that the Essendon football club was in a better position in 2007 that we are now.

 

[The Donners]

Who's fault was this??? Sheedy had a huge amount of influence over the recruiting in this time and many bad decisions were made.

Darren Walsh, Tristan Cartledge, Kepler Bradley, Nash, Andrew Lee, Paul Thomas, Ty Zantuck, Camporeale, Chris Heffernan, Tom Hislop, Mal Michael - to name a few.

David Hille, Patrick Ryder, Jason Winderlich, Bachar Houli, Kyle Reimers, Jay Neagle, Jobe Watson, Brent Stanton, Sam Lonergan, Alwyn Davey, Ricky Dyson, Andrew Lovett, Angus Monfries etc.

 

[Super Gusto]

Ant, to be perfectly honest, I thought Hird's B&F in '07 was a parting gift.

No, Knights hasn't had access to a quality player of Hird's calibre. May I remind you that Collingwood lost Buckley the same year and are currently sitting in the top 4.

Ryder has been Essendon's best ruckman since Simon Madden and Knights has had him at his disposal (obviously so did Sheedy but as a 19-20 year old).

Collingwood have done extremly well with their draft picks - having two in the top ten of the 2005 draft (incl priority pick) also helped.

They have also been really good at developing their younger players such as Swan, Pendelbury and Thomas - which Alan Richardson gets alot credit for.

This had been a problem at Essendon which Knights identified and poached Richardson from Collingwood.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

And don't forget the likely hood with Sheeds is that we'd have had Rioli and Cousins instead of Myers and Skipworth.

Instant finals and challenger with those two imo.

 

[Super Gusto]

David Hille, Patrick Ryder, Jason Winderlich, Bachar Houli, Kyle Reimers, Jay Neagle, Jobe Watson, Brent Stanton, Sam Lonergan, Alwyn Davey, Ricky Dyson, Andrew Lovett, Angus Monfries etc.

So you're pretty happy with our drafting 2002-2006???

Even though out of the 46 picks (including preseason and rookie) we've had in this time - only 19 odd have been succesful (and I've included players such as Laycock, Nash, Gumbelton and Jetta which the jury is still out on).

 

[Smyth94]

Collingwood have done extremly well with their draft picks - having two in the top ten of the 2005 draft (incl priority pick) also helped.

They have also been really good at developing their younger players such as Swan, Pendelbury and Thomas - which Alan Richardson gets alot credit for.

This had been a problem at Essendon which Knights identified and poached Richardson from Collingwood.

It's also pertinent to note that most of our young players with the exception of Stanton and Ryder have had injury problems throughout their young careers and haven't had enough exposure to AFL.

Collingwood might have a few youngish players but they are getting toward the 60-70+ game mark and have played A LOT of footy together - you can't underestimate this.

A large portion of our youth have barely played 50 games. Look at Carlton's three #1 picks - they've barely missed a game through injury.

 

[Smyth94]

So you're pretty happy with our drafting 2002-2006???

Even though out of the 46 picks (including preseason and rookie) we've had in this time - only 19 odd have been succesful (and I've included players such as Laycock, Nash, Gumbelton and Jetta which the jury is still out on).

We did well in 2004 - Monfries and Slatts - they are two important players.

'05 looks very good - Ryder, Dempsey, Lonergan, Neagle

We've done very well with our late-ish picks, it's our early picks bar Ryder and Hurley that haven't set the world on fire yet.

 

[yaco55]

I think it's well noted that we tend to look for the perfect pass inside 50 thus holding the ball up and inevitably taking the wrong option or panicking and missing a target.

This is a by-product of coaching instructions not to kick to contests in the AFL.

Clubs are reluctant to kick to one on one contests even in the forward 50.

In saying that the forwards haven't distinguished themselves in one on one contests.

 

[yaco55]

And don't forget the likely hood with Sheeds is that we'd have had Rioli and Cousins instead of Myers and Skipworth.

Instant finals and challenger with those two imo.

Kelvin

You are dreaming.

Sheedy took his eye off the ball for the last 3 years of his tenure.

I doubt that Sheedy would have changed his habits in 2008 and 2009.

 

[Kong]

And don't forget the likely hood with Sheeds is that we'd have had Rioli and Cousins instead of Myers and Skipworth.

Instant finals and challenger with those two imo.

As has been stated numerous times, it was not to be Sheedy's call.

We still would've landed Myers.

 

[The Donners]

This is a by-product of coaching instructions not to kick to contests in the AFL.

Clubs are reluctant to kick to one on one contests even in the forward 50.

In saying that the forwards haven't distinguished themselves in one on one contests.

Fair comment.

Neagle and Lloyd.