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kelvin_sheedy said:
And don't forget the likely hood with Sheeds is that we'd have had Rioli and Cousins instead of Myers and Skipworth.

Instant finals and challenger with those two imo.
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Yep after finishing 9th last year, picking up Cousins has really taken Richmond to the next level.
 
The Donners said:
Cousins has been fantastic. Another pre-season under his belt and he'll be even better, he'll play til he's 35.
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Yeah he's been great - no argument there.

The point is Richmond haven't improved with him in the team.

There is no point having a 30+ year old gun midfielder (taking up another developing midfielder's spot) if you can;t even make the eight.

Will Richmond win a premership or even reach top 4 with Cousins in the team?? I highly doubt it.
 
SDR223 said:
Yeah he's been great - no argument there.

The point is Richmond haven't improved with him in the team.

There is no point having a 30+ year old gun midfielder (taking up another developing midfielder's spot) if you can;t even make the eight.

Will Richmond win a premership or even reach top 4 with Cousins in the team?? I highly doubt it.
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On paper, before the season had begun, Richmond's list read quite well based on reputation. Richardson, Brown, Johnson, Tuck and Deledio. These are the players that for whatever reason didn't live up to their reputations. Johnson was 1 of the best taggers in the competition in '08, Tuck had become more than simply a "negative" midfielder, Richardson was runner-up in the '08 Brownlow and Deledio was starting to hit his straps in '08 culminating in a Jack Dyer Medal. With a full pre-season under his belt, Brown would rekindle his halcyon days (pre-broken leg). Add Cousins to that bunch and you have a formidable centre line along with Tambling and Jackson. They were also one of the most inform teams running into last season's finals campaign having knocked off the eventual premiers in the month closing into the finals.

Richmond took a gamble in hopes of snatching a premiership with their aging list, they didn't win a premiership but the Cousins gamble was a success. Regardless of where Richmond finish, Cousins has been exemplary both on and off the field for Richmond, it could be reasonably argued that it was Cousins who helped Richmond's memberships rise from 30k in 2008 to 36k in 2009.
 

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kelvin_sheedy said:
And don't forget the likely hood with Sheeds is that we'd have had Rioli and Cousins instead of Myers and Skipworth.

Instant finals and challenger with those two imo.
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I am sick of you talking about Rioli. It is your fantasy. Yes we would of had Cousins but for the 100th time Sheedy was removed from the decision making at the draft table in 2006. If the recruiting staff said we where not drafting Rioli and Sheedy was coach then we would not have picked him.
Take on the tip and stop with your bloody annoying dreams that you obviously belive in for so long that you some how think they are facts!!
 
kelvin_sheedy said:
I'm not judging him based on one result. I'm judging him on the debacles that were North, Adelaide, Richmond, WCE and Freo. Possibly Hawthorn depending on how it goes.
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Well done now you are judging him on games that have not even been played.:rolleyes: Talk about sitting on the fence.

kelvin_sheedy said:
My beef is you can't make multiple mistakes now and just wear it. It shows to me that if we are challenging we'll make mistakes then and thus miss good opportunities.
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All depends on how good you rated us in the first place. Like i have continually said selection mistakes are not the sole responsability of the coach but as per normal anything to do with actual fact and not kelvin's dream time you do not wan't to know about.!

kelvin_sheedy said:
As for the list if it required that much work as you proclaim then he hasn't made the right decisions regarding Lucas and Lloyd and possibly Fletcher. There was opportunity to trade and and try improve the list but nothing has been done.
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Biggest load of rubbish yet. For a start why would you trade Fletcher ?
Secondly who was going to play in the forward line without Lucas and Lloyd ?
Thirdly the last two drafts have been reasonably strong and bugger all top end trade went through. They would have traded a Lucas or Lloyd if a first round pick was avialabe but it was not.
Whta, are you suggesting they should have traded them for peanuts ?

kelvin_sheedy said:
You either go full bore one way or the other. You can't sit in the middle after half your tenure and say "Oops, I misread it".
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Like Brisbane did to Brown,Black,Bradshaw etc
Or like Adelaide have done or like Collingwood did or Geelong.
It is not that black and white. There are not simply two models that you sit down and decide on. there are heaps of variables.

When Knights took over did he have a crystal ball and say now Lucas i know you are going to do your knee in round one so i am going to put your name up for trade beofre it happens.
Then i am going to make everyone happy by trading away the two most popular players on the list.
The other factore is you can not messure in advance the amount of improvment in young players. You do not know that after a good initial year that Lonergan would not step up further from his 17 possession average or that after a promising year in 2007 Winderlich would suffer the injury bug again and have to under go a major back operation.
You would not be able to say for sure that Gumbleton would miss a whole season with a similar back problem.

It is easy for you to throw up the issues now. I can comment on it now becasue i am on record as saying wehre we are at before the season started. We are 1/2 a win behind my predicted 10 or 11 wins. If anything given a couple of the major injuries we have had i was probaly 1 win off because we would have hit 12 if we had Hille and a good pre season into Weslh, McVeigh and Reimers.

kelvin_sheedy said:
If you look at lists and players then you cannot sit here objectively and say the likes of Carlton and Brisbane are ahead of us yet they are playing finals.
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Their results say differently. Have we got close to Brisbane at home ?
The results differ because Carlton have Judd plus Gibbs and Murphy and a few other young blokes that have 30 to 40 games more experince than our blokes.
Brisbane are the same. They still have some quality older players in their prime that we do not have.
The problem here is still the fact you over rate what we have.

kelvin_sheedy said:
Anyway, he'll be coach next year. Just making the 8 is not good enough for me. We should be aiming top 4 and pushing all the way like Adelaide this year with Hille back and good preseasons into Winderlich,McVeigh,Neagle,Welsh and a few more.
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Well done Captain obvious. Of course the aim is to make top 4 but you have to have the tools to do it. On top of that any dumb nuff nuff would know that we would obviously be a better side if Welsh,McVeigh,Winderlich,Neagle plus Prismall,Reimers,Laycock and Gumbleton all having good pre seasons and being injury free and also having Hille back. We would probably be sitting on 12 or 13 wins now if that was the case now but hey you are the one not factoring in that fact about this year.

kelvin_sheedy said:
Personally I've stamped his papers and think the only way we'll get a flag is similar to Worsfold who got lucky with a gun midfield. We have to get lucky with players to win a flag under Knights imo.
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Of course you have stamped his papers. In your own dream reaility you have limited knowledge when forming your opinion and if it does not fit your distorted expectations then it is a failure despite any circumstances that have caused some of the efect.

It is dam funny that you mentioned a few players having a good pre seasons and getting Hille back as a reason why we would be shooting for top 4 next year but somehow that can not be used as an excuse for coming up 2 or 3 wins short of where we probably should be this year.
Keep the double standards up;)

kelvin_sheedy said:
ps. I'm done one the Knights thing. Add that to Myers and Stanton. :D
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Of course you are. Why would anything change. You always give it away when people present reasonable and understandable facts rather than some sort of dream reailty based on limited facts and your knowledge of the situation by watching a few games on TV.
 
yodellinhank said:
I'm talking of the development of the likes of Ryder and Dempsey (who incidentally wasn't exactly free of injury for Sheeds). 90-100 odd games of development into Stanton and Watson. Access to players like Pears and Hurley. My point is Sheedy was left over with the remnants of 2000 and stuff all else. We were banned from the first rounds of the draft in 1999, and had bad picks from 2000-2004 in comparison to the 05-08+ drafts that Knights has benefitted from.
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You can spin that anyway you want. Yes there are some solid points but you can also argue that Sheedy had Hocking,Lonergan and Dyson yet did not use them and all three have given us good value this year and in Lonergans case last year.
Sheedy in 2007 had Winderlich for his best season to date and also had a fully fit Lucas kicking 60 goals compared to 9 and 14 for Knights after his injury.
Lloyd was the same over 2007 and 2008 so there is no difference there

If you look at Stanton he is not doing a lot more than what he did in 2006 and 2007 there is not a lot of difference to 2008 and 2009. His disposal average over the last 4 seasons has been 22, 20,22 and 24. He has pretty much played at the same level.

And as far as looking at the draft problems well it is well known that both the club and Sheedy can take their share of blame on that front. Yes Sheedy did not have Pears and Hurley but he did have Ryder playing good games in defence in 2007.
Of cource Knights had Ryder playing well in the ruck this year where Sheedy did not but in 2007 Sheedy had Laycock in his best year to date and Hille who even though he was not in the same form as 2006 and 2008 was still solid enough.

As you can see it is possible to spin the facts in whatever direction you want.
At the end of the day one thing it does not change is the fact that the drafting between 1999 and 2004 has hurt us big time. We have some solid to good players out of that period but not enough.
This is the reason why i belive it would not have really mattered who we had as coach.

And before anyone thinks other wise i loved Sheedy as a coach. I was lucky enough to have lunch with him before he left and it is a day i will never forget. However in my opinion he stayed 3 years too long and it has cost him a chance to coach somewhere else where i am sure he would have made a go of it with a fresh start and a new challenge.
 

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ant555 said:
I am sick of you talking about Rioli. It is your fantasy. Yes we would of had Cousins but for the 100th time Sheedy was removed from the decision making at the draft table in 2006. If the recruiting staff said we where not drafting Rioli and Sheedy was coach then we would not have picked him.
Take on the tip and stop with your bloody annoying dreams that you obviously belive in for so long that you some how think they are facts!!
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So, the mistake was removing Sheedy from the decision making? ;)
 

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Thrust said:
How does everyone feel about this after the Hawthorn win?










as a side note this comment can be explained by this:
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=505632&page=5
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a win doesnt magically make prismall an in and under midfielder champ. Never was and never will be. I felt his efforts have been soft of late and asked that he could attack disputed balls a little harder. Nobody is questioning the blokes ability and foot skills.

Our effort at the ball was great against hawthorn.
 
marcuz said:
a win doesnt magically make prismall an in and under midfielder champ. Never was and never will be. I felt his efforts have been soft of late and asked that he could attack disputed balls a little harder. Nobody is questioning the blokes ability and foot skills.

Our effort at the ball was great against hawthorn.
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Did you follow the link? I said he was a hard at it inside midfielder in jest due to people's perceptions before he came to Essendon that he was in fact that.
 
Not sure why we're back on this topic, it's a broken record by now but Prismall is already at Stanton's level and he's coming off from a full knee reco.

Prismall can play both outside and inside, wait at least until he's had another pre-season, hopefully he'll get some leg speed back. He was never lightning but he certainly looks as though he's lost a yard.
 
Thrust said:
Did you follow the link? I said he was a hard at it inside midfielder in jest due to people's perceptions before he came to Essendon that he was in fact that.
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Of course i didnt follow the link, this is bigfooty mate. I refused to read it and responded in haste and anger with out viewing said comments in context. Now i'll slip in a token profanity "go **** yourself" and i think im done.;)
 

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