Some guy gives Johnno a blast!

[seanoff]

Aker just does not know how to keep his mouth shut unfortunately, and it's a trait of a person scorned to want to bite back at their enemy. Aker saw a chance to get one back and of course he leapt to it. Unlikely to be the last time Aker slams into the Doggies under the guise of footballing objectivity.

It's classless of him to point out that Johnson is injured and past it and a hinderance to your team, or "done" as he said it. Completely classless.

Classless or not, he has a perfectly reasonable case here. Johnson should have announced his retirement at his testimonial and rocket should only pick him on form. because atm he doesn't seem to be adding much to the side.

 

[Morris Major]

KB did a little bit of stat-based analysis and completely dismissed what Aker had to say.

Latham is the Aker of politics.

 

[Mahama]

Classless or not, he has a perfectly reasonable case here. Johnson should have announced his retirement at his testimonial and rocket should only pick him on form. because atm he doesn't seem to be adding much to the side.

Here we have the reason I rarely join in debates on BigFooty... Various people put up posts with a long list of logical reasons as to why Johnson being dropped is a bad idea, including statistics, ideas on team structure and poor alternative options, and the response? "atm he doesn't seem to be adding much to the side". Seanoff, you have just won the argument. Congratulations sir.

Now we just need a North supporter in here making an irrelevant comment on our premiership history and the thread will be complete

 

[maddog37]

Johno has been injured all year and is old. They are both facts that cannot be argued with.

You may be able to get away with one, but not both.

I have had my fingers crossed he would get himself right but it has not happened. You cannot play injured men in finals.

 

[BB1888]

Round 22 last year against Collingwood springs immediately to mind. We wanted that 3rd spot and Johnno got us there by setting up Higgins for the second last goal, and then putting through the last one. And I don't think either of us can proclaim to KNOW that he will or will not be able to do similar in this year's finals.

And as fun as selective quotes are, you didn't exactly address the main point of my post. If we drop Johnson, who do we have that can play the assist role better than him? Hahn is too slow and wouldn't find the ball enough, Hill doesn't work hard enough, Gia is played either closer to goals or in the guts, Hall is needed at Full Forward, Grant and Jones don't get enough of the ball, Murphy struggled when played there earlier this year and has been awesome as a rebounding defender, Higgo is struggling in general... Did I miss anyone?

It's all very well to say that we should drop him, but unless we have someone who can do better at providing a pathway to goal the idea is fundamentally flawed.

I know it's a little backwards given we're talking about Brad Johnson here, but it seems that those calling for him to be dropped aren't thinking about this as logically as they should.

What I would have liked was for BJ to have been picked on form, not sentiment throughout the year.

If that had been the case then he would have been dropped many weeks ago and another, younger player could have been allowed to come in apply forward tackling pressure and develop his game to a standard where he may have been on the up come finals time.
(Look how good Grant has been this year & Jones looks to be a real goer, imagine if Jones had another 6 games under his belt at this stage of the year)

BJ is old, slow, injured, doesn't tackle, loses his feet far too easily and plays for free kicks that he doesn't get.

He is a club legend, no one doubts that. What is in doubt is whether he can actually contribute enough in finals.

 

[_Mike_]

While Johnno is getting game time with his current form & injuries it could be the reason (as some have suggested) as to why the second tier of players are not stepping up.

Favouritism is doing more harm than good. Higgins, Ward & Johno havent been right all year due to niggling injuries. We've seen the constant inclusion of favourites over fit players who could have stepped up given enough game time.

Would Hill have stepped up and put in effort if he knew he was going to be selected over Higgins and Johnson who have been taking up spots when they are not fit??? who knows.. form has shown not, but i do get a sense of a "why should I bother if they arent going to give me a few games on the trot" kind of attitude in him.
Would Stack be a tier 2 crumbing forward who would have improved had the selection comittee persisted and given him more time? who knows...

I tend to think the dogs might have hung on a bit too much when it comes to club favourites.. And this falls back to the perception of "culture" being the biggest problem so far.

 

[TempleKelvington]

The problem is that the second tier players won't step up and assume responsibility, or develop until Johnson is gone. It was the same situation with Harvey at St Kilda. Like Johnson he kept getting uncontested possessions and had no defensive game. Young players would keep out of 'his space' like they do with Johnson and Barry Hall. Once he left, hey presto! the Saints are brilliant with everybody playing by the team rules - with no exceptions!

Look at the players Collingwood has unearthed. Did anyone think that Dawes and Blair and Macaffer would be making such essential contributions?

Take a look a Farren Ray at St Kilda vs when he was at the Dogs and see how much he lifted his game when he doesn't have club legends to bow to. Same with Collinwood now that Rocca and Buckley have gone. The younger brigade have taken it to another level. The same problem still exists at the Lions with Power and Black.

To earn his spot Johnson has to reinvent himself much as he did when he changed from a fast wingman into an undersized full forward. Now he needs to become a tagger or a pressuring small forward, neither of which he can do in body or spirit I suspect.

If you want to win the premiership then Johnson has to go. If you are happy with top 4 then keep him in the team.

Mate I'm not sure how many games you actually watch of ours, but I see them all. I actually think Johno has been pretty good. He's not lost his pace. He's lost some touch. I also watch a lot of games at Willi and there is no one he's keeping out. Willi is on top in the VFL and our guys there are doing really well. As a result we have we have also unearthed new talent this year. Grant, Jones, Wood, Roughead and Moles.

If they earn their spot they get a chance. Nobody is keeping anyone out believe me.

If the only game you have seen of our this year was Sat night then you'd have the same thoughts on almost all our guys.

 

[BB1888]

While Johnno is getting game time with his current form & injuries it could be the reason (as some have suggested) as to why the second tier of players are not stepping up.

Favouritism is doing more harm than good. Higgins, Ward & Johno havent been right all year due to niggling injuries. We've seen the constant inclusion of favourites over fit players who could have stepped up given enough game time.

Would Hill have stepped up and put in effort if he knew he was going to be selected over Higgins and Johnson who have been taking up spots when they are not fit??? who knows.. form has shown not, but i do get a sense of a "why should I bother if they arent going to give me a few games on the trot" kind of attitude in him.
Would Stack be a tier 2 crumbing forward who would have improved had the selection comittee persisted and given him more time? who knows...

I tend to think the dogs might have hung on a bit too much when it comes to club favourites.. And this falls back to the perception of "culture" being the biggest problem so far.

I agree that culture is an issue at the Dogs.

Lets face it, we haven't exactly had a massive history of success over the last 50 years and while we have made massive advances in many ways (memberships, facilities etc) we still lack that hard edge when it counts.

Look who continually get dropped in our team- Addison, Hill, Stack.
Easy targets who are not 'favourites'.

Look who doesn't get dropped- BJ, Higgins & until he completely imploded Akermanis.

Protected species who have had a very ordinary year.

That tells a tale in itself.

 

[cammo78]

i have always said johnno is overated,very selfish-wants to win game off his own boot-and the leagues biggest choker.

Right - this sort of s**t earns you a red card on the Norf board. In fact, less than this is red card worthy over there.

Mods...?

 

[Sedat!]

Would Hill have stepped up and put in effort if he knew he was going to be selected over Higgins and Johnson who have been taking up spots when they are not fit??? who knows.. form has shown not, but i do get a sense of a "why should I bother if they arent going to give me a few games on the trot" kind of attitude in him.
Would Stack be a tier 2 crumbing forward who would have improved had the selection comittee persisted and given him more time? who knows...

Both Hill and Stack have been given opportunities to get in the team this year and stay there (multiple opportunities in Hill's case). Stack got an extended run in the team before being injured for the last 4 weeks, and he might well get another opportunity to get back into the team. Hill has had ample opportunities in 2010 to cement his place and frankly has been unable to do so - he was actually getting senior AFL matches when his VFL form did not warrant it.

People need to stop using Johnno as a reason for this black spot on our current list. It is not selfishness keeping him in the team, it is a near complete lack of viable available options in this area. Of course that doesn't make as sexy a headline

 

[seanoff]

Here we have the reason I rarely join in debates on BigFooty... Various people put up posts with a long list of logical reasons as to why Johnson being dropped is a bad idea, including statistics, ideas on team structure and poor alternative options, and the response? "atm he doesn't seem to be adding much to the side". Seanoff, you have just won the argument. Congratulations sir.

Now we just need a North supporter in here making an irrelevant comment on our premiership history and the thread will be complete

lets see (these are total season stats)

4 contested marks (2 against other top 4 sides)
10 tackles (against other top 4 sides 2, both against St Kilda)
21 clangers (against other top 4 sides, 9)
7 1% (against top other top 4 sides, 1)
9 goals (goals against other top 4 sides 0, none, nil)
15 goal assists (against other top 4 sides 2)

so against those you need to beat, (St Kilda, Geelong and Collingwood)

0 goals, 2 assists, 1 1%, 9 clangers, 2 contested marks, 2 tackles. with a disposal effectiveness in the mid 50s.

I'll stand by my short but considered statement. He isn't adding much, esp when it counts. looks good when there is no pressure and in front but not good when it counts.


This is not to say he hasn't been a great player he has, but i suspect he's gone one yr too long.

 

[Duritz]

I guess the interesting thing is going to be whether him being in the side drives younger players away. Then he'll really have a bad effect on the team, if by staying too long he drives tomorrow's leaders away.

 

[_Mike_]

Both Hill and Stack have been given opportunities to get in the team this year and stay there (multiple opportunities in Hill's case). Stack got an extended run in the team before being injured for the last 4 weeks, and he might well get another opportunity to get back into the team. Hill has had ample opportunities in 2010 to cement his place and frankly has been unable to do so - he was actually getting senior AFL matches when his VFL form did not warrant it.

We know Hill's form this year has been below sub-par.. But we know that he is much more capable of better things..

However

- He doesnt look like he's put on any bulk to improve his physical attributes, so he gets easily bumped off the ball
- Doesnt put in the 1%'ers that you see from the other younger players such as Wood, Picken, Grant etc
- I wonder if anyone at the club has asked why Hill is still where he is.. Doesnt appear that they have put in the development effort as they have done with others.. He gets dropped to the 2's, gets a game in the seniors here and there but generally displays the attitude as riding on the coat tails of success
- Overall I get a sense that there's more to the story than we've been told.

People need to stop using Johnno as a reason for this black spot on our current list. It is not selfishness keeping him in the team, it is a near complete lack of viable available options in this area. Of course that doesn't make as sexy a headline

The point is, if the selection comittee is going to continue with running injured players, what is that really saying about the depth.. It isnt there, but how can it develop when you dont promote younger players and give them the chance.

How many times have we seen Everitt dropped or overlooked for selection in favour of another name better favoured?

 

[NQTIGER]

Unfortunately after sat nite what aker is frothing at the mouth about looked spot on, This might have been your best shot at the flag, who knows you might still get there , but i dont think that having him in the side atm will help you guys achieve this.

Richo was finished last year and sadly for BJ he is gone too. retire at rnd 22 and let the kids play.

 

[Sedat!]

How many times have we seen Everitt dropped or overlooked for selection in favour of another name better favoured?

How will Everitt help out with our dearth of mid sized forwards, especially considering that one-on-one contested ball winning ability and intensity is a weakness of his (getting better to be fair)? I do agree that he's been a little unlucky to be out of the team for periods this season, but he has suffered more from not really having a designated position and role in the team, as well as the afore-mentioned intensity issues in his game.

The specific issue at hand is our current forward structure, and which mid sized forwards should we be going ahead with in September. The Johnson issue is a worthy topic of discussion but it needs to be held within the confines of the specific role he plays in the team. Nobody has been able to tell me who should be playing in that role at the expense of Johnno that will a) make our forward line function better and b) have our September opponents living in fear.

 

[doggies ftw]

So "its" saying hes being selfish by playing injured, didnt "it" come out earlier in the year and admit he was injured and shouldnt have been playing!

 

[_Mike_]

The specific issue at hand is our current forward structure, and which mid sized forwards should we be going ahead with in September. The Johnson issue is a worthy topic of discussion but it needs to be held within the confines of the specific role he plays in the team. Nobody has been able to tell me who should be playing in that role at the expense of Johnno that will a) make our forward line function better and b) have our September opponents living in fear.

The reference to Everitt was used as an example of players being overlooked in favours of others, not as a replacement for a forward.

Rather than given time in the 2's to pick up some form and get some game time, Johno has been constantly rushed back in the hope that he will come good on match day... A terrible strategy for managing a players return from injury... This has been detrimental and is the prime reason as to why he's been struggling to date.

The point to my thread/s was that by continuining to favour players who are out of form, it was doing more harm than good.
The difference between the forward line in 2009 vs 2010 was that there was a better spread, because the forward line was functioning without injury and bad form.. Players who did show bad form or who were injured, were quickly replaced because players were available.

Now with the spread of injuries, form, sacking of Akermanis... the forward line is based on Hall and the other talls who chip in. The only consisent small player to kick goals this year has been Gia, who hasnt predominantly been playing up forward.

Hardly what you would call depth in the forward line...

 

[Sedat!]

Rather than given time in the 2's to pick up some form and get some game time, Johno has been constantly rushed back in the hope that he will come good on match day... A terrible strategy for managing a players return from injury... This has been detrimental and is the prime reason as to why he's been struggling to date....

First 10 rounds agree wholeheartedly. But IIRC Johnno was brought back via the two's after his last setback and has been a handy if unspectacular contributor since his return and before Saturday night.

The difference between the forward line in 2009 vs 2010 was that there was a better spread, because the forward line was functioning without injury and bad form.. Players who did show bad form or who were injured, were quickly replaced because players were available.

Now with the spread of injuries, form, sacking of Akermanis... the forward line is based on Hall and the other talls who chip in. The only consisent small player to kick goals this year has been Gia, who hasnt predominantly been playing up forward.

Hardly what you would call depth in the forward line...

No arguments from me, we are shallow in this area. That is exactly why Johnno is getting a game right now.

 

[wayniac]

I said at the start of the season and I'll say it again, it's great defence that makes flag winners. Having a capable forward line is all that is needed if the mid field can consistently win ball.

On Saturday our defence collapsed in a big heap, Brian Lake had the worst game he's had since the Carlton flogging a couple of years back when Fevola kicked a bagful because Lake gave him too much leeway.

To beat Geelong we needed to shut them down and have a game decided with a total of less than 120 points between the two sides with us outscoring them.

The best finals in recent years have been decided by superior defence. The 2005 Swans and 2006 Eagles wins were how we need to play and we didn't do it.

Take a look at the 2007 Port side when Tredrea was bowing to the crowd as they thumped their opposition. Yeah, the final flogging was a bit different....

Mean, stingy defence and NOT turning the ball over is the key. How many times did we turn the ball over from mindless kicks Saturday night?

Eade was outcoached and he was not even animated in the coaches box. If he can't coach our guys to flood back and stem the bleeding of goals by now, he never will.

My guess is that he is absolutely steaming mad at Lake and the senior players for giving Geelong such an easy win.

I never, ever want to see a game like that again with Stokes getting cheap marks without somebody on him.

Look how many people think Williams had a good game. It's relative to overall shitness of the others since he was the one who rode over a pack and punched it directly towards goal for yet another gift. Dumb play!

Let's hope Harbrow can hit the ground running.

Hargrave is finished too...

 

[immortalmike]

Its all Bull. Not one of our forwards played (or tackled) all that well against Geelong. Johnno has been building form quite well over the last few weeks with good to decent games against Adelaide, North and Freo. He's currently second best in the AFL for Score assists per game (selfish bastard ) and is the only lead up forward we have with Murph playing down back. I didn't think his chasing wasn't that bad on Saturday, I even commented at the game that Johnno was often trying to put pressure on when he was severely out-numbered.

The biggest problem with our forward pressure on Saturday night was not Brad Johnson it was that we never had numbers at the contest, which then allowed Geelong to use their extra man (or sometimes two or three men) to run the ball out of our 50. Whether this was because or players were sick or that they just couldn't keep up with the pace of the game is the issue.

 

[crownie]

How will Everitt help out with our dearth of mid sized forwards, especially considering that one-on-one contested ball winning ability and intensity is a weakness of his (getting better to be fair)? I do agree that he's been a little unlucky to be out of the team for periods this season, but he has suffered more from not really having a designated position and role in the team, as well as the afore-mentioned intensity issues in his game.

dont worry your not the only one waiting for someone to mention someone else to can do Johnno's role better in the team.

maybe if Higgins was in good form more pressure would be put in Johnno to keep his spot, and for those mentioning Hahn well his foot skills are not good enough to led up on the wing.

Hill and stack got given a chance but dont look finals ready, Grant has earnt a spot in our best 22 and Jones has shown great potential but physically wont offer us what we will need.

 

[crownie]

The biggest problem with our forward pressure on Saturday night was not Brad Johnson it was that we never had numbers at the contest, which then allowed Geelong to use their extra man (or sometimes two or three men) to run the ball out of our 50. Whether this was because or players were sick or that they just couldn't keep up with the pace of the game is the issue.

and for those saying his opponents run off him to easily, Josh Hunt had a fairly quite game.

 

[Duritz]

Do you guys think that this is limited to just Johnno, though? Or, do you think that when other older players (Hall, etc) retire too, a big bottoming out period is on its way? I mean, you haven't been able to benefit from high draft picks like other (tanking) teams, is that going to make it hard to win games after this "golden period"?

 

[Dazb86]

Duritz I genuinely think we will be alright for a few more years at least. It's when the guys from the 99 draft retire that we will be in trouble. Having said that I don't think we will be in contention in the next few. Good but not dominant.

 

[Pigdog]

Do you guys think that this is limited to just Johnno, though? Or, do you think that when other older players (Hall, etc) retire too, a big bottoming out period is on its way? I mean, you haven't been able to benefit from high draft picks like other (tanking) teams, is that going to make it hard to win games after this "golden period"?

We will be ok.

We are getting games into our kids while still managing to stay competitive and while some holes will appear in our team in 2 to 4 years time (mainly in defence) I can't see us bottoming out anytime soon.