Some questions about Rugby.

[Simple Jack]

I'm not a huge rugby follower (might be if there was FTA coverage) but watching the world cup I have come up with a few observations/questions.
I watch a fair bit of league so most of my comparisons are drawn from there.

1. Quade Cooper to me seems to be ridiculously flashy and not really bothering to do basic team things (from what I can gather) and more often than not it seems to get us into trouble. Seems like one of those 10% of the time does brilliant stuff that comes off but mostly just tries to stuff around and causes problems players. Is that an accurate summation?

2. Our forwards seem to be really tiny compared to every other country. Is this a problem caused by league where all the players are a hell of a lot smaller and need to be more nimble?

3. The goal kicking seems to be really poor compared to league. Is this because of differences in the ball or the distances they kick from or something else?
I doubt they don't practice it as much considering how important it is in rugby.

4. Stuff that is really pretty simple and straightforward in league (ie a couple of side steps and a line break) seem to be hailed as 'god like' by rugby commentators. Kurtley Beale seems to be talked up as one of the greatest full backs in the world but from what I have seen, it seems any of the RL full backs would be much better at the running type play he is praised for. Does this also have something to do with the rugby players having to be bigger and less mobile?

I'm not trying to troll rugby as a sport I'm just interested in the answers to my questions/accuracy of my observations.

Thanks.

 

[moto748]

As a (mostly) league fan too I'd be interested in the responses.

Certainly the goal-kicking in this competition has seemed to poor, although Weepu of the ABs didn't seem to have any problem the other day. A bit like the soccer world cups, it seems every time there's a controversy about the ball. As for forwards, I'm sure there's plenty of big fellas in Australia and I'm not sure you can blame the NRL for that!

And to be fair, running the ball out from the back is surely a greater risk in RU where you have to release the ball when tackled. Even Billy Slater might be a little more circumspect if he knew he couldn't safely keep possession if tackled on the 20m line, so as to speak.

 

[Mint Condition]

1. Somewhat accurate, but he has shown in the past an ability to play more conservatively and lead the team around well. He was pivotal to the Reds success this year and not just because of his flashy stuff. He has very good basic skills. His passing and running are top class and his kicking in play has improved. He's also an excellent defensive fullback. Not a great tackler but he reads the play well and is great on counter attack.

2. Not really true. Our forward pack is as heavy and tall as any other in international rugby. We tend to lack forwards with the same level of power and technique as other teams though, particularly some of the Northern Hemisphere teams and South Africa...but probably because their style of rugby puts more of an emphasis on it and so that's how they're developed. We are improving though. On the other hand our forwards are often more skillful. Perhaps rugby league has some influence there.

3. In general I'd say rugby union has better goal kickers and that they work more on their kicking, though of course it isn't universal. In league, kickers are always kicking from about 20-25 metres out so they're good at the angles from that distance. They only kick conversions or penalties from easy positions. Rugby Union kickers are regularly attempting much more difficult kicks at goal for penalties, from near the touch line and up to 50 metres from goal (sometimes more). You'll almost never see a rugby league kicker attempting a goal from more than about 35 metres out...and even at that distance, only if it's straight in front. The issue with this world cup is that they're using new balls and it's taken a while for some of the kickers to get used to them. However, the best kickers, like Morne Steyn, Weepu, Parra etc are still kicking well with success rates as high as any league kicker (while taking more difficult kicks)

4. You have to remember there are 15 players on each side compared to 13 in league so it's often harder to break the line. The running and passing skills of backs in each code are similar but league forwards are better at that side of the game than rugby union forwards. Pretty much all the skills of rugby league exist in rugby union, but there are many important skills of rugby union that don't exist in rugby league, so union players have more things to work on. And for forwards in rugby union, those things are specialised and a lot more important than ball running.

I don't think you've seen enough of Kurtley Beale. He's got freakish talent that's been seen since he was a schoolboy and first started making headlines. He's up there with anyone from either code without any doubt and would be one of the first players a league team would try to recruit from rugby. There is greater complexity for a rugby union fullback as well. A league fullback has to be in the right position and run the ball back. A union fullback has to be in the right position, then assess where his support is, whether the defensive line is scattered or well organised, whether there's space in behind (i.e. where the opposition wingers and fullback are), and then decide whether to run or pass or kick. If he runs and gets caught with no support, he'll be turned over or give away a penalty. If he kicks when he should run he's wasted an opportunity, if he kicks, does he kick long into space, to touch for a lineout or does he put up an up and under (bomb) and try to regather it? if he kicks poorly he has to chase hard to put all his players on side (unlike in league, players in front of the kicker have to retreat until the kicker plays them onside) giving the opposition great counter attacking opportunity.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

I'm not a huge rugby follower (might be if there was FTA coverage) but watching the world cup I have come up with a few observations/questions.
I watch a fair bit of league so most of my comparisons are drawn from there.

1. Quade Cooper to me seems to be ridiculously flashy and not really bothering to do basic team things (from what I can gather) and more often than not it seems to get us into trouble. Seems like one of those 10% of the time does brilliant stuff that comes off but mostly just tries to stuff around and causes problems players. Is that an accurate summation?

2. Our forwards seem to be really tiny compared to every other country. Is this a problem caused by league where all the players are a hell of a lot smaller and need to be more nimble?

3. The goal kicking seems to be really poor compared to league. Is this because of differences in the ball or the distances they kick from or something else?
I doubt they don't practice it as much considering how important it is in rugby.

4. Stuff that is really pretty simple and straightforward in league (ie a couple of side steps and a line break) seem to be hailed as 'god like' by rugby commentators. Kurtley Beale seems to be talked up as one of the greatest full backs in the world but from what I have seen, it seems any of the RL full backs would be much better at the running type play he is praised for. Does this also have something to do with the rugby players having to be bigger and less mobile?

I'm not trying to troll rugby as a sport I'm just interested in the answers to my questions/accuracy of my observations.

Thanks.

1. Cooper is flashy, similar to Benji Marshall in league or in union the former great Carlos Spencer. You can carry these players.

2. Our pack is just as big as NZ...SA are different where they have 120kg fat blokes all over the place!

3. You are kidding right? Carter and Steyn are that much better than a league kicker. As a league kicker to kick a goal from 60m, or from 50m out on the sideline, Union kickers do it regularly, especially these two. It is just that Australia have horrible kickers!

4. You realise there are 4 more players on the field right? Not to mention it is easier to get quick ball as there is no contest at the tackle, not to mention the laughable scrums league has. Put a RL fullback on a union field they would be just as ineffective, with the exception of Hayne.

 

[Mint Condition]

Slater would go very well too. He's a freak, can do anything.

 

[Simple Jack]

1. Cooper is flashy, similar to Benji Marshall in league or in union the former great Carlos Spencer. You can carry these players.

2. Our pack is just as big as NZ...SA are different where they have 120kg fat blokes all over the place!

3. You are kidding right? Carter and Steyn are that much better than a league kicker. As a league kicker to kick a goal from 60m, or from 50m out on the sideline, Union kickers do it regularly, especially these two. It is just that Australia have horrible kickers!

4. You realise there are 4 more players on the field right? Not to mention it is easier to get quick ball as there is no contest at the tackle, not to mention the laughable scrums league has. Put a RL fullback on a union field they would be just as ineffective, with the exception of Hayne.

No need to be a w***er about it.

First of all you may not be aware but in Melbourne no RWC games are shown on 9 before about 1am and no other rugby games are ever shown so I haven't been able to see much of it.

1. Ok, but from the limited amount of Cooper I have seen he seems to **** up a hell of a lot more than Benji Marshall.

2. Fair enough, it just seemed from the games I have seen we are getting smashed by the other teams forwards.

3. Once again, referring above I haven't had the ability to see non Aus kickers so that makes sense.

4. Yes, but isn't the field also wider? Also if you have so many players at the ruck shouldn't that mean there's actually more space where in league you only have the markers that are out of the line following a tackle?

And no argument about the scrums in league, completely pointless wank that should be taken out of the game.


Thanks to others for your informative, non condescending responses.

 

[Mint Condition]

4. Yes, but isn't the field also wider? Also if you have so many players at the ruck shouldn't that mean there's actually more space where in league you only have the markers that are out of the line following a tackle?

Nope, the width is the same in both sports. Just under 70 metres I think (though some fields might be a little narrower).

Next time you watch a game keep an eye on how many players the defensive team commit to the ruck. You'll notice that when the team with the ball is getting quick ball or going forward the defensive team will often commit no more than 1 or 2 players to the ruck. The defence will spread across the field. They'll wait for opportune moments to commit more players to the ruck to try and get a turnover and/or slow the attacking team's ball down (i.e. after a big tackle, if a player becomes isolated or if the attacking team is disorganised and are taking a while to clear the ball). Usually the attacking team commits more players to the ruck than the defensive team.

League also has a 10 metre defensive line, whereas a rugby defensive line are just behind the back of the ruck, thus there's less time and space for the attackers. However, if a team can get quick ball, this can be advantageous as the defence also has less time to reorganise and make decisions. When a team in rugby union is getting quick ball it can be significantly quicker than the ball league players get from a play the ball (about 1 second vs about 3 seconds for a play the ball).

 

[Simple Jack]

Nope, the width is the same in both sports. Just under 70 metres I think (though some fields might be a little narrower)....

Wikipedia disagrees with you but the difference is only 2m so it's not that important.

The rest of your explanation is great, thanks.

 

[Mint Condition]

Oh okay, just checked too. So rugby union has a max width of 70m and league a max width of 68. They wouldn't necessarily always be at the max though and I'd guess that on the fields the two games share in Australia the width would be the same. Another thing I notice is that rugby league often has a narrower in goal area.

And no worries. Feel free to ask any more questions. There are some complex areas to the game. Some areas, like the detailed tactics of the front row in a scrum aren't even known by 95% of passionate rugby fans (i.e. everyone that's never played in the front row...me included...I played in the 2nd row a bit so I know some things, but really, it's like a secret society and no one else really wants to know haha)

 

[Caesar]

2. Our forwards seem to be really tiny compared to every other country. Is this a problem caused by league where all the players are a hell of a lot smaller and need to be more nimble?

Pack weight is pretty similar. Expertise is another matter. We haven't really had a world-class forward pack in a decade or more.

The theory goes that we aren't as good at play in the forwards because, in dry Australian conditions, running rugby by nimble backs pays greater dividends so that's how our players grow up. Northern hemisphere teams (and to a lesser extent NZ) play during much wetter winters, on slipperier fields, where solid grinding forward play is essential to success.

I'm not sure how true that really is... I mean, the Boks are known for having some fearsome packs, and South Africa is a pretty temperate climate as well. But it tends to be the excuse trotted out.

3. The goal kicking seems to be really poor compared to league. Is this because of differences in the ball or the distances they kick from or something else?
I doubt they don't practice it as much considering how important it is in rugby.

Goal-kicking in this tournament has been sub-standard, but ordinarily rugby kickers s**t all over league kickers. Look up some footage of the 2003 World Cup, where Jonny Wilkinson was slotting home basically any penalty within 60 metres of the goal.

 

[Simple Jack]

............
Goal-kicking in this tournament has been sub-standard, but ordinarily rugby kickers s**t all over league kickers. Look up some footage of the 2003 World Cup, where Jonny Wilkinson was slotting home basically any penalty within 60 metres of the goal.

Yeah fair enough, in fact now you mention it I vividly remember Wilkinsons kicking during the 03 RWC. I hated his little squat thing, also I seem to remember him sinking us during the final.

 

[Aucklander]

No great surprise Union kicker are (slightly) better than league kickers. It's (the penalty) a pivotal scoring part of the game.

That said, I'd have El Masri kicking for the match winning goal up against any Union kicker.

 

[Aucklander]

Yeah fair enough, in fact now you mention it I vividly remember Wilkinsons kicking during the 03 RWC. I hated his little squat thing, also I seem to remember him sinking us during the final.

He really started a trend there. Cooper's style makes me laugh.

On Cooper, IMO he remains Australia's biggest (apart from their other Kiwis) weapon against the All Blacks. If he can get past the gobful he's going to cop sunday night, Australia may well be on their way to a famous victory.

 

[Wahooti Fandango]

1. Somewhat accurate, but he has shown in the past an ability to play more conservatively and lead the team around well. He was pivotal to the Reds success this year and not just because of his flashy stuff. He has very good basic skills. His passing and running are top class and his kicking in play has improved. He's also an excellent defensive fullback. Not a great tackler but he reads the play well and is great on counter attack.

2. Not really true. Our forward pack is as heavy and tall as any other in international rugby. We tend to lack forwards with the same level of power and technique as other teams though, particularly some of the Northern Hemisphere teams and South Africa...but probably because their style of rugby puts more of an emphasis on it and so that's how they're developed. We are improving though. On the other hand our forwards are often more skillful. Perhaps rugby league has some influence there.

3. In general I'd say rugby union has better goal kickers and that they work more on their kicking, though of course it isn't universal. In league, kickers are always kicking from about 20-25 metres out so they're good at the angles from that distance. They only kick conversions or penalties from easy positions. Rugby Union kickers are regularly attempting much more difficult kicks at goal for penalties, from near the touch line and up to 50 metres from goal (sometimes more). You'll almost never see a rugby league kicker attempting a goal from more than about 35 metres out...and even at that distance, only if it's straight in front. The issue with this world cup is that they're using new balls and it's taken a while for some of the kickers to get used to them. However, the best kickers, like Morne Steyn, Weepu, Parra etc are still kicking well with success rates as high as any league kicker (while taking more difficult kicks)

4. You have to remember there are 15 players on each side compared to 13 in league so it's often harder to break the line. The running and passing skills of backs in each code are similar but league forwards are better at that side of the game than rugby union forwards. Pretty much all the skills of rugby league exist in rugby union, but there are many important skills of rugby union that don't exist in rugby league, so union players have more things to work on. And for forwards in rugby union, those things are specialised and a lot more important than ball running.

I don't think you've seen enough of Kurtley Beale. He's got freakish talent that's been seen since he was a schoolboy and first started making headlines. He's up there with anyone from either code without any doubt and would be one of the first players a league team would try to recruit from rugby. There is greater complexity for a rugby union fullback as well. A league fullback has to be in the right position and run the ball back. A union fullback has to be in the right position, then assess where his support is, whether the defensive line is scattered or well organised, whether there's space in behind (i.e. where the opposition wingers and fullback are), and then decide whether to run or pass or kick. If he runs and gets caught with no support, he'll be turned over or give away a penalty. If he kicks when he should run he's wasted an opportunity, if he kicks, does he kick long into space, to touch for a lineout or does he put up an up and under (bomb) and try to regather it? if he kicks poorly he has to chase hard to put all his players on side (unlike in league, players in front of the kicker have to retreat until the kicker plays them onside) giving the opposition great counter attacking opportunity.

Really good summary.

No great surprise Union kicker are (slightly) better than league kickers. It's (the penalty) a pivotal scoring part of the game.

That said, I'd have El Masri kicking for the match winning goal up against any Union kicker.

Steyn goes alright.

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[Mint Condition]

That said, I'd have El Masri kicking for the match winning goal up against any Union kicker.

20 metres out from the sideline I would too. But he wasn't a big kicker of the ball.

Any further than 30 metres out from wide I think I'd go with Morne Steyn or any number of great union kickers.

 

[Mint Condition]

Frans Steyn is really without peer when it comes to those long kicks. Though I was also impressed with the Argentinian kicker who got it over from 50+ with about a 2 step run up the other night.

That drop goal is absolutely ridiculous though, I've never seen anything like it. Would have gone over from 70 metres it clears that easily and that's not even at altitude. I'd love to know the furthest he's ever kicked one from in training (either place kick or drop goal).

 

[moto748]

...if he kicks poorly he has to chase hard to put all his players on side (unlike in league, players in front of the kicker have to retreat until the kicker plays them onside) giving the opposition great counter attacking opportunity.

Great summary, Mint, but I'd quibble with this a little. I've long argued that the offside laws aren't policed anywhere near tight enough in union. On a RWC thread on another forum, I remarked that when scrum halves do a box kick, the chasers seldom seem to be onside. Yes, I know the s-h can put them onside, but I just don't believe that always happens. And, funnily enough, in the next game (I think it was ABs/Argentina) the ref did actually penalise this. But I'd argue it's very rare. And remember that freak try Wales scored when the prop-forward hoofed the ball forward from about the half-way line? Was the scorer really behind the kicker then? I doubt it. And on TV commentary they never even mention it.

Anyway, looking forward to the semis, and fortunately they are on at a civilised hour for the UK.

 

[Aucklander]

20 metres out from the sideline I would too. But he wasn't a big kicker of the ball.

Any further than 30 metres out from wide I think I'd go with Morne Steyn or any number of great union kickers.

Isn't 20 out from the sideline more like 30+ meters out? The 66m one in that clip is just over the halfway line.

To be fair Union kickers are and again I think only slightly better than league ones, but they have to be as that's what the game dictates.

 

[Mint Condition]

Great summary, Mint, but I'd quibble with this a little. I've long argued that the offside laws aren't policed anywhere near tight enough in union. On a RWC thread on another forum, I remarked that when scrum halves do a box kick, the chasers seldom seem to be onside. Yes, I know the s-h can put them onside, but I just don't believe that always happens. And, funnily enough, in the next game (I think it was ABs/Argentina) the ref did actually penalise this. But I'd argue it's very rare. And remember that freak try Wales scored when the prop-forward hoofed the ball forward from about the half-way line? Was the scorer really behind the kicker then? I doubt it. And on TV commentary they never even mention it

Yeah I think you're right about a lot of those sort of kicks. But it is hard to tell sometimes as the kicker will take a step back to kick while the chasers start to sprint forward so there's a split second in it. What they've started to crack down on now is players who are clearly in front of the kicker (for example, if a fullback kicks the ball and all his teammates are 20 metres in front of him). Previously they'd let them do the league thing of jogging forwards towards where the kick goes until the kicker runs them onside. Now they're enforcing the rule that these players must actually retreat until they're played onside (thus giving greater opportunity for counter attack from poor kicks). I've seen a few guys penalised for just standing still, waiting to be played onside (though plenty do get away with it).

 

[moto748]

Previously they'd let them do the league thing of jogging forwards towards where the kick goes until the kicker runs them onside. Now they're enforcing the rule that these players must actually retreat until they're played onside (thus giving greater opportunity for counter attack from poor kicks).

Yes, that's clearly a good thing. In league they're not penalised for jogging forward, but they can't be within ten metres of the business end (such as when a bomb is hoisted under the defenders' goalposts and attackers are challenging for the ball), but I fully agree that in union you shouldn't get an advantage from poor kicks by having players in front of the kicker.

 

[chargers 09]

Simple Jack if you want to see a stellar scrummaging performance, look no further than the France Wales semi final. France are completely undersized against most 'good' rugby nations, however tend to dominate come scrum time. Watch for both their hookers Szarweski and Servat, and the number 3 Mas. Happy to help tutor another person into the great game

 

[Bomber Bears]

Isn't 20 out from the sideline more like 30+ meters out? The 66m one in that clip is just over the halfway line.

To be fair Union kickers are and again I think only slightly better than league ones, but they have to be as that's what the game dictates.

there was 5 kickers this year who kicked comfortably over 80%, league goal kicking the last 5 or so years has improved alot. Just no comparrison really over the longer distance kicks (because, well, it's not a absolute necessity when you're more likely to attack with the ball in hand when you get a penalty on half way).

Mind you the Union ball probably helps, that bit more round and floaty compared to the steeden.

 

[Mint Condition]

Yeah the balls are a little bit different. I think the gilbert travels a little further too, but on the other hand I think it's a little harder to control. Sometimes it'll just veer one way or the other unexpectedly.

One thing I notice is that a lot of league kickers have a natural hook, whereas union kickers often get it trained out of them. Some kickers like Wilkinson and Carter can move it both ways depending on the kick...like a golfer.

My point about El Masri is that he mastered kicking from the 20 metre line at any angle. Goal kicking is all about repetition and as he hardly ever kicked from beyond the 30 metre line I'd choose union kickers to kick for me from that range (irregardless of whether El Masri could make the distance or not).

 

[Aucklander]

Halligan, Ridge and even Eion Crossan led the RL revolution which turned the games kickers from aimless hacks into pretty good kickers.

Minty, did you read Greg Growden's article in the SMH the other day? Thought it was very, very good.

 

[Mint Condition]

Which article?