Toast Sorry Adam

HeathComeBack

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  • But why Goodes and not others. I can only speak for myself while accepting that most others feel the same. I just didn't like the guy much particularly after singling out the 13 year old girl then pursuing her via the media. I never felt the same way about any other indigenous player. Maybe some racists saw it as an opportunity for a cheap snipe but I think Goodes is fooling himself if he believes racism was the main issue involved. I also believed the continuous boos that drove him from the game were unnecessary.
The booing of Goodes didnt start until he called out the girl. Then he did the dance and it was a free for all.
I feel like a lot of people love Aboriginals in a way that's a novelty until they stand up and say something about race. Suddenly they aren't liked so much anymore.
 

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Reg Grundy35

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The booing of Goodes didnt start until he called out the girl. Then he did the dance and it was a free for all.
I feel like a lot of people love Aboriginals in a way that's a novelty until they stand up and say something about race. Suddenly they aren't liked so much anymore.
nutshell. yep
 

sr36

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The booing of Goodes didnt start until he called out the girl. Then he did the dance and it was a free for all.
I feel like a lot of people love Aboriginals in a way that's a novelty until they stand up and say something about race. Suddenly they aren't liked so much anymore.
Agree and I think you are correct for some of the booing, but I think that simplifying the whole scenario into this one cause, which is the current line being pushed, is a grossly exaggerating the amount of racist sentiment within the crowd.
 

HeathComeBack

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Agree and I think you are correct for some of the booing, but I think that simplifying the whole scenario into this one cause, which is the current line being pushed, is a grossly exaggerating the amount of racist sentiment within the crowd.
its enough to have no faith in humanity.
 

domus

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I base my opinion on discussions I had with indigenous people at the time - who are unfortunately subject matter experts. The alternative- that none of the boos were race related, is fantasy. And my opinion of the ingrained racism/sense of superiority that many white Australians silently feel and the booing gave them an opportunity to express it without expressing it. Don’t get ar$ey if you feel you booed with no racial undertones- maybe plenty did. But to claim all did is a joke.

And you guys can give the Winmar/Long wasn’t booed story a rest. It is about as meaningful as saying not all African Americans were lynched so the ones that were can’t have been race related.

My guess is that Messrs Long and Winmar would be more than a little bemused to know that their treatment at the hands of crowds shows the boos didn’t contain a racial element. Pretty sure Long’s big gesture was his walk, which came well into his retirement?


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You wrote a lot of words which actually said nothing. How do your indigenous friends know what motivated the boos? What do you mean they are "subject matter experts?" Do they have the ability to discern the motivation behind someone's boo? Please show me evidence for your assertion that white Australians have ingrained racism and a sense of superiority. Why do you assume that I booed? I have never booed at any game of footy in my life.

Why do you want me to give the "Winmar/Long never got booed" argument a rest? Is it because it completely shatters your assertion that Goodes was booed because he took a stand against racism? Your comment on lynching is absurd. All African Americans were treated as inferior back in those terrible days of lynching and segregation.

You must attempt to explain the total absence of malice from the general football public in the cases of Winmar and Long when they did exactly the same thing as Goodes. You claim we white people have an ingrained racism and sense of superiority over our indigenous brothers and sisters. If that is true why was this racism and sense of superiority not on display when Long and Winmar spoke out?

Long's biggest gesture was calling out Monkhorst when he used racist language during the ANZAC Day clash. He was never booed by Collingwood fans after his stance. Why?
 

sr36

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its enough to have no faith in humanity.
Would you throw out a whole punnet of strawberries, if a couple of the strawberries had a bit of rot on them. I wouldn't even throw out the one's with rot - I'd just remove the rotten parts.

I'm not saying that any of the below applies to you, it's just my observation of current discourse.

It seems to me that some don't have any real evidence to suggest that the Goodes booing was about racism, but they want to believe it so they can rant against humanity. There is a possibility that their claims are correct, but I see no evidence of it, so I feel that it is wishful thinking - a hope to find something to rail against.Why the hell anyone would want to believe that large sections of the AFL crowd are pathological racists is beyond me. It's like what Bucks said about 'looking for the outlier' in relation to free kicks. Some just look to find crap umpiring decisions so that they can declare all umpiring crap. Some just look (or create) examples of racism or any other 'ism' so that they can declare people ******. In the spirit of things I'm going to invent a new label: "sapienism" - a strong dislike of the human race.
 

domus

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Nicky Winmar was relentlessly booed and racially villified by Collingwood fans the day the famous photo was taken. Do you think Australia suddenly became not racist after that game ended? Use some common sense.
What is your point? Did the vilification continue after he made his stand and opened the public's eyes to how hurtful their abuse was? Isn't it all about education? Tony Shaw and Gary Lyon have both admitted they used racial slurs to opposition players. They now deeply regret their behaviour because they have a deeper understanding of just how damaging such abuse can be? Are you claiming that Shaw and Lyon are still closet racists along with all the fans who yelled racial abuse when they were in a drunken haze in the heat of a footy contest? Is it possible for people to learn from past mistakes? Clearly the answer is yes as racial abuse at the footy is now as rare as hen's teeth.
 

76woodenspooners

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I base my opinion on discussions I had with indigenous people at the time - who are unfortunately subject matter experts.
What makes indigenous people who are on the receiving end of racist acts subject matter experts about the behavior of individuals who boo a bloke on a footy field?

Correlation doesn’t equal causality.

Are you able to explain the causal link between people booing a bloke on the footy field, and the colour of his skin? Am yet to see anybody articulate a causal link beyond simply stating with fake authority “it was racist”.

The alternative- that none of the boos were race related, is fantasy.
Nobody is suggesting that none of the boos were race related.

No doubt some were.

And no doubt some people sleep very soundly at night, comfortable in their own ‘truth’ that they were booing a bloke for what in their opinion were ‘dog acts’ on the footy field. And / or he was behaving like his status in the game (Brownlows, etc) made him above accountability for his actions - what they might term ‘a flog’. And /or he was behaving like the colour of his skin made him above accountability for his actions ...

... and what is the point of racist shaming those folks? What does it achieve? How will that do anything to reduce racism against indigenous folks? How will that do anything to advance indigenous causes? How will it do anything to advance reconciliation in this country?

And my opinion of the ingrained racism/sense of superiority that many white Australians silently feel and the booing gave them an opportunity to express it without expressing it.
How many is “many”?

Of course one person is one person too many - but wouldn’t it be entirely counter-productive to racist shame a large population for just one person? Or two people? ‘Some’ people? ‘Many’ people? Where is the line?

FWIW I believe that Ed should have stepped down (or been forced to step down) as President for his radio gaffe. I believe that was a sliding doors moment that would have likely diffused the situation - there would have likely been no Goodes playing like a frustrated person, there would have likely been no spear chucking at the Carlton cheer squad, there would have likely been no resultant booing (whatever the drivers behind it).

IMHO the booing was poor form and it shouldn’t have happened (I don’t believe in booing at all, but I accept that I’m probably in the minority there). IMHO it was a mistake to tie the booing to racism because it only threw kerosene on the fire and that fire continues to burn. It has probably set reconciliation back 10 years.

It could have just as easily and more accurately been framed as “don’t kick a bloke whilst he’s down” and it would have been more effective at shutting it down, and not have had the nasty side effects.
 
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Doc1763

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I've never seen the need to just boo someone over and over again, be it within a game or every time they play against us.

Maybe if an opposition player has decked one of our players, booing them for the rest of the game is OK (O'Day is the obvious exception there, he deserved it every time we played them, and it rightly continued when he was coaching their reserves).

The only time I can remember really giving it to someone all game was Number 39 for Carlton's first game against us. My opinion of him hasn't changed, but I haven't done it since - I just haven't felt the need to.

As far as Goodes is concerned, did he stage for frees? Yes, but really no worse than some others. The sliding issue was terrible, but he wasnt the dirtiest player going around at the time (Barry Hall could have killed Brent Staker, but he never copped it as bad).

If people want to boo, that's their choice, but I just thought the level, and at times, viciousness of it was completely out of proportion to his alleged crimes.

Was he over sensitive about it? Possibly, but I just find it sad that he couldn't bring himself to do his lap of honor on Grand Final Day, which he thoroughly deserved.
 

sideswipe

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You wrote a lot of words which actually said nothing. How do your indigenous friends know what motivated the boos? What do you mean they are "subject matter experts?" Do they have the ability to discern the motivation behind someone's boo? Please show me evidence for your assertion that white Australians have ingrained racism and a sense of superiority. Why do you assume that I booed? I have never booed at any game of footy in my life.

Why do you want me to give the "Winmar/Long never got booed" argument a rest? Is it because it completely shatters your assertion that Goodes was booed because he took a stand against racism? Your comment on lynching is absurd. All African Americans were treated as inferior back in those terrible days of lynching and segregation.

You must attempt to explain the total absence of malice from the general football public in the cases of Winmar and Long when they did exactly the same thing as Goodes. You claim we white people have an ingrained racism and sense of superiority over our indigenous brothers and sisters. If that is true why was this racism and sense of superiority not on display when Long and Winmar spoke out?

Long's biggest gesture was calling out Monkhorst when he used racist language during the ANZAC Day clash. He was never booed by Collingwood fans after his stance. Why?
We are going around in circles. I wrote of "many" Australians having ingrained racism. I notice it regularly, in pubs, casual conversation, wherever. Glad you don't see it. Shame those players wasted their time in the indigenous rounds by linking arms at the end of each game. Unnecessary. Everything is fine.

"Completely shatters your assertion" is self-serving. Could be that the events were different? Maybe Goodesy was seen by many as a little more "uppity" being Australian of the Year and all. Maybe the mob mentality gained its own momentum? You seem to believe none of the boos were based on race, I disagree.
 

HeathComeBack

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Would you throw out a whole punnet of strawberries, if a couple of the strawberries had a bit of rot on them. I wouldn't even throw out the one's with rot - I'd just remove the rotten parts.

I'm not saying that any of the below applies to you, it's just my observation of current discourse.

It seems to me that some don't have any real evidence to suggest that the Goodes booing was about racism, but they want to believe it so they can rant against humanity. There is a possibility that their claims are correct, but I see no evidence of it, so I feel that it is wishful thinking - a hope to find something to rail against.Why the hell anyone would want to believe that large sections of the AFL crowd are pathological racists is beyond me. It's like what Bucks said about 'looking for the outlier' in relation to free kicks. Some just look to find crap umpiring decisions so that they can declare all umpiring crap. Some just look (or create) examples of racism or any other 'ism' so that they can declare people ******. In the spirit of things I'm going to invent a new label: "sapienism" - a strong dislike of the human race.
I come from the point of view that one is too many. Because as we have seen so much lately one stupid person can effect stupid peoples views with stupid arguments
 

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SprooseMoose

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To summarise:
Adam Goodes says he felt racially vilified by the boos he received from the crowd after he took a stand against racism. The crowds double-down on the very thing that was racially upsetting him, to the point where he retires. Australia debates if there was racial motivation, and if he should feel racially vilified or not.

I'm not a "lefty", "SJW" or "snowflake" or whatever, but let's use some logic!

Was all the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Statistically no. It couldn't have been.
Was some of the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Certainly.
Does the perceived lack of racism against other Indigenous players prove there is none directed towards Adam Goodes? Not for a second.
Does booing white players as well prove that you're not racist? Again, not for a second.
Does the "legit" booing of Adam Goodes provide a convenient cover for those who were racially motivated? Yes.
Should we have stopped doing the thing that was racially upsetting him, after he called it out, driving him to retirement? Nah. He's a flog who deserved it, right?

*Sigh*
 

Reg Grundy35

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To summarise:
Adam Goodes says he felt racially vilified by the boos he received from the crowd after he took a stand against racism. The crowds double-down on the very thing that was racially upsetting him, to the point where he retires. Australia debates if there was racial motivation, and if he should feel racially vilified or not.

I'm not a "lefty", "SJW" or "snowflake" or whatever, but let's use some logic!

Was all the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Statistically no. It couldn't have been.
Was some of the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Certainly.
Does the perceived lack of racism against other Indigenous players prove there is none directed towards Adam Goodes? Not for a second.
Does booing white players as well prove that you're not racist? Again, not for a second.
Does the "legit" booing of Adam Goodes provide a convenient cover for those who were racially motivated? Yes.
Should we have stopped doing the thing that was racially upsetting him, after he called it out, driving him to retirement? Nah. He's a flog who deserved it, right?

*Sigh*
thanks. good post but will have no effect. they are all in now can't be seen to back down. :(
 

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In some ways I believe this issue is similar to the ‘violence against women, Australia says no’ domestic violence campaign. The vast majority of men know it’s abhorrent to physically harm a woman and those who don’t will not listen to the message anyway (don’t give a stuff). Making the domestic violence landscape appear one sided and the demonisation of men serves to alienate men and to what end? The message ought to be ‘violence against people, Australia says no’.
Likewise, the vast majority of Australians don’t condone racism and those that do are not going to change their mind because of divisive behaviour like that shown by Adam Goodes.
Rather than making assumptions about motivation, a spirit of inclusivity and equality should prevail and actions that damage others should be punished. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I wish it wasn’t always an us v them scenario as all it does is create bitterness and division imo.
 

jackcass

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We are talking about a minority group, one which has suffered a terrible history of persecution and discrimination. It is what that boo made them feel, not the intent of the "booers". Extending that to white males is ridiculous, as you intended.

Maybe consider the use of the r word that rhymes with petard. Two mates on a tram exchanging good-natured banter. That word is used. Neither of the mates intended nor felt hurt by the use of the word. Some other person on the tram has a relative with special needs. That word reminds them that their relative is going to face challenges and exclusion throughout their life. It causes them hurt. Do you think that is hyper-sensitive?

Those boos made a great many indigenous people feel reminded of their history of exclusion and, yes, persecution. It isn't about the boos being intended to be racist, it was that they were received that way by members of a minority group. You really can't see that?
I'm guessing they're feeling the same way when Ablett is getting booed or is that seen as acceptable by our indigenous brethren?

I repeat, I don't condone or partake in the sustained booing of any player but from my perspective those that do are basically d*&%heads and in my experience d*&%heads come in all shapes and sizes, black, white and brindle. Some may well be racists even.
 

jackcass

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Why is speaking up for something you consider to be unjust considered to be sanctimonious?
IF you smell the fart are you sanctimonious for saying it stinks and we should do something about it? Or should you just suffer and bear it for the benefit of those who cant smell it?
Obviously, a good fart is a splendiferous thing, to be admired. Who'd dare cast aspersions upon the purveyor of such tasty morsels?
 

sr36

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To summarise:
Adam Goodes says he felt racially vilified by the boos he received from the crowd after he took a stand against racism. The crowds double-down on the very thing that was racially upsetting him, to the point where he retires. Australia debates if there was racial motivation, and if he should feel racially vilified or not.

I'm not a "lefty", "SJW" or "snowflake" or whatever, but let's use some logic!

Was all the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Statistically no. It couldn't have been.
Was some of the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Certainly.
Does the perceived lack of racism against other Indigenous players prove there is none directed towards Adam Goodes? Not for a second.
Does booing white players as well prove that you're not racist? Again, not for a second.
Does the "legit" booing of Adam Goodes provide a convenient cover for those who were racially motivated? Yes.
Should we have stopped doing the thing that was racially upsetting him, after he called it out, driving him to retirement? Nah. He's a flog who deserved it, right?

*Sigh*
You were going well until the bolded part. I haven't read many comments supportive of the booing. I've just read people arguing that the racial component of it is being grossly exaggerated. You may think it is appropriate to exaggerate the racial component, but I don't. I think it creates fear, paranoia and division and thus is pushing the cause of equality a long way backwards. If my belief is true that the majority of the booing wasn't racially motivated, the constant claims that large sections of the crowd were behaving in a pathologically racist way is very damaging to indigenous people. It is very likely to create or grow a sense of distrust and a lack of confidence in many indigenous and thus disadvantage them, resulting in them becoming less likely to succeed. Positive intentions don't always have positive results. Point out racism and fight it when it is there, but don't fictionalise or exaggerate it, it will do way more harm than good.
 

SprooseMoose

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You were going well until the bolded part. I haven't read many comments supportive of the booing. I've just read people arguing that the racial component of it is being grossly exaggerated. You may think it is appropriate to exaggerate the racial component, but I don't. I think it creates fear, paranoia and division and thus is pushing the cause of equality a long way backwards. If my belief is true that the majority of the booing wasn't racially motivated, the constant claims that large sections of the crowd were behaving in a pathologically racist way is very damaging to indigenous people. It is very likely to create or grow a sense of distrust and a lack of confidence in many indigenous and thus disadvantage them, resulting in them becoming less likely to succeed. Positive intentions don't always have positive results. Point out racism and fight it when it is there, but don't fictionalise or exaggerate it, it will do way more harm than good.
Going well until the bolded part? Sorry, I'll make some adjustments and get back to you...

Re: exaggerating the racism. All that matters is how Adam Goodes feels about it. He feels how he feels about it. He's not playing it up, or lying about it or something, he didn't want to feel that way, or to be treated the way he was. He didn't want to retire under those circumstances. When he says the things he said about it, why can't we just take him seriously? Why do we have to second guess him and decide if he gets to be upset or not? That's far more harmful to equality in my view.
 

76woodenspooners

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To summarise:
Adam Goodes says he felt racially vilified by the boos he received from the crowd after he took a stand against racism. The crowds double-down on the very thing that was racially upsetting him, to the point where he retires. Australia debates if there was racial motivation, and if he should feel racially vilified or not.
Australian society has always had a hair trigger response against folks they perceive to be cynically exploiting sexism / mental health / disability / religious discrimination / racism or any other shield to avoid accountability for their actions.

And then the shield of ‘victim blaming’ gets held up and people respond by tripling down their distain. Perhaps it’s a natural consequence of a compassionate society - it needs to protect that compassion from abuse and exploitation.

Was all the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Statistically no. It couldn't have been.
Was some of the booing of Adam Goodes racist? Certainly.

Does the perceived lack of racism against other Indigenous players prove there is none directed towards Adam Goodes? Not for a second.
Does booing white players as well prove that you're not racist? Again, not for a second.
Does the "legit" booing of Adam Goodes provide a convenient cover for those who were racially motivated? Yes.
Agree with all of that :thumbsu:

Should we have stopped doing the thing that was racially upsetting him, after he called it out, driving him to retirement? Nah. He's a flog who deserved it, right?

*Sigh*
How did he conclude that it was racial?

Sure, he’s entitled to his own interpretation, but how is that any proof of intent?

He basically accused the people who first boo’ed him of being racist. (If he’s claiming to be the subject of racial vilification, then by extension he was implying that the perpetrators were racist). That’s probably the harshest barb you can aim at anybody (rightfully IMO) - surely people should take particular care when using that barb?

I'm not a "lefty", "SJW" or "snowflake" or whatever, but let’s use some logic!
I am in those categories when it comes to issues of reconciliation and indigenous rights ...

... but like you I agree that people should start using some logic ...

... this whole Adam Goodes episode has been divisive. I don’t see that it has done anything for reconciliation or indigenous rights beyond mere shallow lip service. If anything it has sent it backwards.
 
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Thatsmyname

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What is a "snowflake loser"? I remember Billy using snowflake a lot towards Eddie in Love Thy Neighbour. A re-make might have legs.
No that meant white, now it means delicate... "I'll ave arf"


hqdefault.jpg
 
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sr36

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What is a "snowflake loser"? I remember Billy using snowflake a lot towards Eddie in Love Thy Neighbour. A re-make might have legs.
It's someone with unusually warm hands. Can't make a snowball to save themselves because the flakes just keep melting.
 

domus

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Going well until the bolded part? Sorry, I'll make some adjustments and get back to you...

Re: exaggerating the racism. All that matters is how Adam Goodes feels about it. He feels how he feels about it. He's not playing it up, or lying about it or something, he didn't want to feel that way, or to be treated the way he was. He didn't want to retire under those circumstances. When he says the things he said about it, why can't we just take him seriously? Why do we have to second guess him and decide if he gets to be upset or not? That's far more harmful to equality in my view.
So you were clearly incensed by the abuse directed at Stevie Milne for years. He made it clear it was very hurtful and yet our coach, Mick Malthouse, who recently called any booing of Goodes, racist, had the temerity to call Milne a rapist during a quarter time break. Where was the concern for Milne's feelings? The double standards are astonishing. Did the AFL issue an apology to Milne for the abuse he endured for years? I'd rather be mocked for an immutable characteristic (as nasty as that might be) than be accused of committing a heinous crime.

To say 'all that matters is how Goodes feels about it" is ridiculous. If hurt feelings becomes the measure of whether or not certain words can be spoken or actions taken then any criticism of a contestant on The Voice or harsh review of a restaurant's food would mean the outlawing of this hurtful criticism. Donald Trump's election caused some people to have a mental breakdown. Perhaps they should have had another election to comfort these tormented souls.. How can this standard be used to judge the acceptability of hurtful words/behavior? Unless violence is being used or incited, I don't see how this can be policed or where you would draw the line on what is and isn't acceptable.
 
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How can people say it has nothing to do with race when the booing was in response to (a) goodes calling out racism (b) his indigenous spear dance?
No matter which way you slice it, the question of race was on the table and you cant pretend you can just ignore it and boo in relation to some other supposed thing.
 

Apples

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I think it's sad that years later we are still debating this matter. History will be on the side of Adam Goodes. History is always on the side of those who campaign for fairness and against discrimination. Some of the drongoes booing Goodes may not have been racists; they may have just mindlessly followed the mob. Some were definitely racists, uncomfortable or even outraged that an uppity black man was telling them how to behave; a black Australian of the Year no less. It was sad and disgraceful that perhaps the greatest indigenous player ever was hounded out of the game. Hounded out of the game by the bullying mob. I suspect the majority of the booing was racially based, but I can't prove it. It doesn't cut it that most of the booing was in response to some of Goodes's less than sportsmanlike behaviour either. Plenty of thugs have played the game and most did much worse than Goodes and were never booed as loud or as long.
One thing is consistent across this debate, back in 2015 and again now; the denial. It's deafening.
 

Thatsmyname

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I think it's sad that years later we are still debating this matter. History will be on the side of Adam Goodes.
History is written by the victors and right now we have a white supremacist in the white house and an ex KGB officer slash head of an oligarch empire manipulating elections Brexit etc all over the world to hand power over to the racists of the world
 
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