Percy2257
The Urgio to be Sergio
- May 11, 2019
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Cerra is developing very nicely.
List Mgmt. SOS's Trade History
- Thread starter Arr0w
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- Nov 22, 2015
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When did Richmond draft Rance, Riewoldt, Edwards, Martin?
2009, 2007, 2007 and 2010.
We’ve had our share of mistakes, perhaps more than most clubs, pre-SOS. All clubs have busts.
How did Watts, Trengove and Scully go for Melbourne? Petracca, drafted in 2015, was 50/50 until this year. What would Demons be like if they took Harry or Charlie at pick 7 instead of Weidemann?
Schache was taken at #2 in 2015. Looks like he’s finished. I think all 5 of ours from that year play on, Weitering, Harry, Charlie, Cuningham and JSOS.
Every club will have success and horror stories. It’s irrelevant to Carlton’s predicament.
There is a sameness about the players on the list. Skinny, lacking presence, poor disposal by foot, poor in front of goals.
Carlton should forget about 1st round draft picks and go for ready made players that can contribute from day 1.
The recruiters have failed to date, but it can be redeemed, with an addition of experienced, talented and battle hardened footballers. Not potentially good, but actually good.
St Kilda and Brisbane have done exactly this and benefited for it. By having better players at the club, this will allow currently underperforming players the chance to fast track their development, in addition to those that are developing well.
it’s clear there has been disharmony in the recruitment ranks, etc. The board have escaped all criticism, and haven’t been held accountable for the Internal dysfunction.
- May 1, 2016
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- #279
The curse of modern AFL.
In the past, Luke Hodge would be known as a Hawthorn great, Gibbs would never have left, Deledio would've moved off-field and into coaching, Mumford would've been arrested, no-one would've touched Robbo or Bennell, Abblett and Judd would've stayed, and Murphy would be maligned for being weak (well, that one's the same) instead of it being mitigated by his loyalty in an era of business.
Gibbs didn't want to go, and while family issues were a reason for him, would they have been an adequate reason if he was on 80 grand a year? I don't know, but I don't think so.
I hope we are also assessing the clubs development coaching and injury management of these players whilst making determinations of his tenure ?.
- Nov 22, 2015
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Just to be clear, we couldn’t just get whatever player we wanted. Free agents chose other clubs, etc.
It’s a matter of opinion if St Kilda and Brisbane started where we did or were ahead of us. No club has cut anywhere as deep as us.
Disharmony might have cost us Butler in place of Betts. If true, it also saved us from Ellis.
It’s not for lack of effort that we don’t have all the senior hardened bodies we need.
Think back to:
Rockliff
Shiel
Devon Smith
Saad
Coniglio
And rumoured Gaff, Kelly and Wines.
This off-season is our best chance in several years to nail the players we need.
PS: wonder how Shiel is feeling about * now.
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- #282
- Aug 16, 2015
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When was he on our list
What is with the splitting of hairs in regards to Mcadam? He was picked by Carlton using a pre draft selection, he was then traded to Adelaide, from Carlton.
- Aug 16, 2015
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We pre listed Mcadam, with a pre draft selection, we then traded Mcadam in a trade.
- Aug 16, 2015
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No Stamos, he was picked by Carlton, then traded from Carlton.
Its clear he was picked with the intention of being traded to Adelaide, I’m sure Adelaide would have expressed an interest in taking him, I’m not suggesting otherwise.
He was picked by Carlton using a pre draft selection.
- Nov 22, 2015
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SOS was never going to take McAdam or any other mature player.
As Adelaide wanted McAdam and offered us draft picks for him, we nominated McAdam.
Same with Geelong and Kreuger.
- Aug 16, 2015
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Spot on, but to say we didn’t pick him is not right, we picked him as was our right to pick two players, who we could then on trade or keep.
Beast__Mode
Cancelled
- Jul 1, 2017
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I was referring to Tambling and Oakleigh Nicholls which were in the original post and had no relevance to my comment, which was that teams don’t burn two high draft picks in one draft and prosper.
- Nov 22, 2015
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Sure.
We burned most of our draft picks before SOS.
If your main concern is Dow and O’Brien, I suggest you give it another year or 2. We took TDK in the same draft and he is tracking nicely.
Dramoth
Premium Platinum
Dow was injured this year. But, he has done the hard yards and has a body that is more suited to AFL football. LOB hasn't developed physically over last year, but I would put that down to the fact we haven't been able to train properly this year in the gym.
They also haven't been able to get match fitness to force their way back into the side by playing well in the "VFL". How are they supposed to develop when all they are getting is 15 minute quarter scratch matches. If the AFL was going to do anything right by the clubs, they would be adding another 2 mill to the salary cap for the next 2 years and increasing the list size by another 4-6 players.
But they aren't... they are setting everything up to go to shorter quarters and smaller lists with a much smaller salary cap. All for the sake of selling the games to the yanks and Gill the Dill's massive end of year bonus cheque.
Covid-19 has wreaked havoc with day care arrangements which has given me a bit of extra down time.
The SOS tenure at Carlton has been interesting to me, even moreso when he was moved on (for reasons I find particularly unconvincing)
Interested to know what others think. Below is something I did on the EFC board so please don't read it as having a condescending tone (which might be the case if you're reading as a Carlton fan).
I don't think fans generally understand or appreciate the scope of what has occurred with Carlton's list and the quality of the job SOS has done given the limited resources and time. He was list manager for the end of 2015 to the end of 2019 (essentially terminated earlier this year). That is 5 trade and draft periods. 2020 was year 5 of a rebuild of a list that had to go into negative territory to bottom out. The list cull wasn't finished until the end of year 3. There are 7 players who survived. Two have just retired.
Below is a summary of the Carlton list in position with player information as follows: Player, Playing age in 2021, height/weight.
What it shows is that he had to draft every type of player, it was a rebuild in every sense of the word (following a complete demolition). It wasn't as simple as best available (if such a thing exists). It's putting together each part of the list in a way that it will mature together (i.e. going tall earlier). There are clear risks with this approach given the uncertainties of future drafts. The first 25 spots of the 2015 draft have actually proven to be a boon for talls so SOS got lucky/took advantage of that but then the next raid on the first round came in 2017 which was a weak crop of midfielders by standards either side.
Notes:
- Players SOS recruited are in blue.
- Players who pre date SOS are in white.
- Bold white or bold blue is an AFL quality player who at a minimum is young enough for a replacement to be drafted in 2020 and developed before his career is likely to end.
- Players who are in normal font and blue are unknowns (almost exclusively drafted late).
- Players who are underlined have shown something to suggest they will be long term players or who are top 20 selections.
- Players who are in italics are players who have question marks based on exposed form.
[TD valign="top"] SD1: Lachie Plowman, 27, 191/90 (3TD) Nic Newman, 28, 185/83 [/TD][TD valign="top"] KPD1: Liam Jones, 30, 198/100 Harrison Macraedie, 23, 198/92 [/TD][TD valign="top"] 3TD: Caleb Marchbank, 25, 193/93 (KD) [/TD]
[TD valign="top"] SD2: Sam Docherty, 28, 183/83 (HB)
Sam Petrevski-Seton, 22, 182/78 [/TD][TD valign="top"] KPD2: Jacob Weitering, 23, 196/98
Hugh Goddard, 25,198/94
Ben Silvagni, 21, 196/87Kade Simpson, 33, 183/75
Tom Williamson, 22, 191/85 (SD/3TD)
[/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"] R1: Tom De Koning, 22, 203/100
Marc Pittonet, 25, 200/107
Matthew Kreuzer, 32, 200/101
[/TD][TD valign="top"]
M1:
Patrick Cripps, 26, 195/95
Brodie Kemp, 20, 192/85
Paddy Dow, 21, 183/82 [/TD][TD valign="top"] M2: Sam Walsh , 21, 184/80
Sam Philp, 20, 185/80
Matt Kennedy, 24, 188/90
Josh Honey, 20, 184/79 [/TD]
[TD valign="top"] M3: Ed Curnow, 31,180/85 Will Setterfield, 23, 192/90 Liam Stocker, 21, 184/83
Sam Ramsy, 20, 180/72
Matt Cottrell, 21, 181/78 [/TD][TD valign="top"] W1: Marc Murphy, 34, 180/80 Zac Fisher, 23,177/75 (SF) [/TD][TD valign="top"] W2: Jack Newnes, 28, 186/82
Lochie O’Brien, 22, 180/78 [/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"] 3TF1: Mitch McGovern, 26, 191/93
Jack Silvagni, 23, 194/ 90 (M)
Finbar O’Dwyer, 22, 192/78
[/TD][TD valign="top"]
KF2:
Levi Casboult, 31, 201/101
Charlie Curnow, 24 ,192/92 (3TF)
[/TD][TD valign="top"]
SF1:
Eddie Betts, 34, 174/74
Michael
Gibbons, 26, 175/75
Cameron Polson, 23, 177/81 [/TD]
[TD valign="top"] MF: Jack Martin, 26, 186/83
Darcy Lang, 26,183/83
Fraser Phillips, 20, 186/71 [/TD][TD valign="top"] KF1: Harry McKay, 24, 204/100 Callum Moore, 25, 193/92 [/TD][TD valign="top"] SF2: David Cunningham, 24, 185/85
Matt Owies, 24, 179/84 [/TD]
A lot of criticism of SOS seems to stem from the recruiting of recycled players. The first point to make in response, is that there has almost certainly been an element of Carlton and GWS helping each other out. Carlton assumed a lot of contracts of GWS players, at a point when GWS was reducing the size of its list, and ended up with 20 year old top 10 selections Setterfield and Marchbank for a song. It looks like it was a quid pro quo.
The second point in response is that the value in going beyond pick 70 in any draft is always questionable. There is always a possibility that SOS may have found a few players but it's even more unlikely these super late picks will positively develop when they populate the same VFL side which is then getting thrashed each week (because that's what tends to happen to raw 19 and 20 year olds in the VFL). We know from our VFL team, which has been very good during the period in question, there has always been hardened VFL pros on each line and usually a few extras to compliment the kids who they tend to outperform. The odds of players like Owies, Polson, Ramsy and Honey, for example, as players drafted in the range in question in normal circumstances and on to a list that actually looks the part, are long and they'll probably struggle to have careers.
The structure is there allowing for targeted needs based recruiting.
While the small forwards and wings need work there are otherwise stacks of viable options for the rest of the list. The tall defensive stocks are untested because of the durability of Jones and Weitering but there is no rush with Macraedie at 23 next yearand Silvagni at 21. The midfield also needs a few players to come on given that Curnow and Murphy are still prime movers and well in to their 30s. Cripps, Walsh and Setterfield is a very good start. There are 5 top 20 picks, Kemp, Dow, Philp, O'Brien and Stocker, who will get an opportunity to fill these spots. They're also varied types of players.
His resources were limited and yet he's still managed to load the side with top 20 picks. I am not sure what else people can reasonably expect. If the 2017 draft was 2018 there'd be multiple statues of SOS erected all over Ikon park.
The SOS tenure at Carlton has been interesting to me, even moreso when he was moved on (for reasons I find particularly unconvincing)
Interested to know what others think. Below is something I did on the EFC board so please don't read it as having a condescending tone (which might be the case if you're reading as a Carlton fan).
I don't think fans generally understand or appreciate the scope of what has occurred with Carlton's list and the quality of the job SOS has done given the limited resources and time. He was list manager for the end of 2015 to the end of 2019 (essentially terminated earlier this year). That is 5 trade and draft periods. 2020 was year 5 of a rebuild of a list that had to go into negative territory to bottom out. The list cull wasn't finished until the end of year 3. There are 7 players who survived. Two have just retired.
Below is a summary of the Carlton list in position with player information as follows: Player, Playing age in 2021, height/weight.
What it shows is that he had to draft every type of player, it was a rebuild in every sense of the word (following a complete demolition). It wasn't as simple as best available (if such a thing exists). It's putting together each part of the list in a way that it will mature together (i.e. going tall earlier). There are clear risks with this approach given the uncertainties of future drafts. The first 25 spots of the 2015 draft have actually proven to be a boon for talls so SOS got lucky/took advantage of that but then the next raid on the first round came in 2017 which was a weak crop of midfielders by standards either side.
Notes:
- Players SOS recruited are in blue.
- Players who pre date SOS are in white.
- Bold white or bold blue is an AFL quality player who at a minimum is young enough for a replacement to be drafted in 2020 and developed before his career is likely to end.
- Players who are in normal font and blue are unknowns (almost exclusively drafted late).
- Players who are underlined have shown something to suggest they will be long term players or who are top 20 selections.
- Players who are in italics are players who have question marks based on exposed form.
[TD valign="top"] SD1: Lachie Plowman, 27, 191/90 (3TD) Nic Newman, 28, 185/83 [/TD][TD valign="top"] KPD1: Liam Jones, 30, 198/100 Harrison Macraedie, 23, 198/92 [/TD][TD valign="top"] 3TD: Caleb Marchbank, 25, 193/93 (KD) [/TD]
[TD valign="top"] SD2: Sam Docherty, 28, 183/83 (HB)
Sam Petrevski-Seton, 22, 182/78 [/TD][TD valign="top"] KPD2: Jacob Weitering, 23, 196/98
Ben Silvagni, 21, 196/87
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"] R1: Tom De Koning, 22, 203/100
Marc Pittonet, 25, 200/107
Paddy Dow, 21, 183/82 [/TD][TD valign="top"] M2: Sam Walsh , 21, 184/80
Sam Philp, 20, 185/80
Matt Kennedy, 24, 188/90
Josh Honey, 20, 184/79 [/TD]
[TD valign="top"] M3: Ed Curnow, 31,180/85 Will Setterfield, 23, 192/90 Liam Stocker, 21, 184/83
Sam Ramsy, 20, 180/72
Matt Cottrell, 21, 181/78 [/TD][TD valign="top"] W1: Marc Murphy, 34, 180/80 Zac Fisher, 23,177/75 (SF) [/TD][TD valign="top"] W2: Jack Newnes, 28, 186/82
Lochie O’Brien, 22, 180/78 [/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"] 3TF1: Mitch McGovern, 26, 191/93
Jack Silvagni, 23, 194/ 90 (M)
Cameron Polson, 23, 177/81 [/TD]
[TD valign="top"] MF: Jack Martin, 26, 186/83
Fraser Phillips, 20, 186/71 [/TD][TD valign="top"] KF1: Harry McKay, 24, 204/100 Callum Moore, 25, 193/92 [/TD][TD valign="top"] SF2: David Cunningham, 24, 185/85
Matt Owies, 24, 179/84 [/TD]
A lot of criticism of SOS seems to stem from the recruiting of recycled players. The first point to make in response, is that there has almost certainly been an element of Carlton and GWS helping each other out. Carlton assumed a lot of contracts of GWS players, at a point when GWS was reducing the size of its list, and ended up with 20 year old top 10 selections Setterfield and Marchbank for a song. It looks like it was a quid pro quo.
The second point in response is that the value in going beyond pick 70 in any draft is always questionable. There is always a possibility that SOS may have found a few players but it's even more unlikely these super late picks will positively develop when they populate the same VFL side which is then getting thrashed each week (because that's what tends to happen to raw 19 and 20 year olds in the VFL). We know from our VFL team, which has been very good during the period in question, there has always been hardened VFL pros on each line and usually a few extras to compliment the kids who they tend to outperform. The odds of players like Owies, Polson, Ramsy and Honey, for example, as players drafted in the range in question in normal circumstances and on to a list that actually looks the part, are long and they'll probably struggle to have careers.
The structure is there allowing for targeted needs based recruiting.
While the small forwards and wings need work there are otherwise stacks of viable options for the rest of the list. The tall defensive stocks are untested because of the durability of Jones and Weitering but there is no rush with Macraedie at 23 next year
His resources were limited and yet he's still managed to load the side with top 20 picks. I am not sure what else people can reasonably expect. If the 2017 draft was 2018 there'd be multiple statues of SOS erected all over Ikon park.
Brackets
Cancelled
- Nov 7, 2019
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Brawshaw, Cerra, Clark, Coffield and Naughton all named in best 22 under 22 team today. Stephenson rising star winner. Rayner a slow burn but has showed plenty.
Dow and LOB quite clearly showing nothing close to almost all of the other top 10 picks. Will be relying on injuries to make our best side in their fourth years.
Surely it's an easy decision to move them on for needs and hope they can turn things around elsewhere.
Dow and LOB quite clearly showing nothing close to almost all of the other top 10 picks. Will be relying on injuries to make our best side in their fourth years.
Surely it's an easy decision to move them on for needs and hope they can turn things around elsewhere.
Rayner has done jack as a pick one, unfit and too lazy to go through the middle so roams half forward - 10 touches at not great efficiency and a goal a game isn't much chop all things considered
On CPH1877 using BigFooty.com mobile app
Quoting myself for context only.
Do you think SOS is laughing even more about the criticism of the list now that Dow and, albeit in the wrong position, Stocker are establishing themselves as players?
And to think you haven't even seen Kemp, one of the biggest talents of the 2019 draft. With Philp that's another 2 top 20 picks that the commentators wouldn't even be aware of.
Silvagni’s best selection was identifying and working over young Reid.
We roughly traded Gibbs and a future 1st rounder for :
DeKoning
Stocker
Kemp
Philp
Kennedy
O’Brien
Not many out there who pretty much nailed a complete National draft! If all fit would be in our best 22 now..
Weiters, McKay, Curnow, Cunningham, JSOS!
We're seeing Dow and Stocker now come on nicely. Walsh was a given but could've been one of those others who were spoken highly of. TDK, Plowman, SPS are also mainstays current and future. Then Kemp, Cotterel, Williamson etc. If all fit we would be having 75+% of our best 22/23 as SOS recruits, playing during the weekend and with some better development a top 8 team at the moment.
Weiters, McKay, Curnow, Cunningham, JSOS!
We're seeing Dow and Stocker now come on nicely. Walsh was a given but could've been one of those others who were spoken highly of. TDK, Plowman, SPS are also mainstays current and future. Then Kemp, Cotterel, Williamson etc. If all fit we would be having 75+% of our best 22/23 as SOS recruits, playing during the weekend and with some better development a top 8 team at the moment.
Just about evens us up with the Betts and Jacobs trades
- Thread starter
- #299
Really need to update the OP, to finalize SOS lead outcomes
Nothing to do with Silvagni.
