South Africa- The New Zimbabwe?

[- PC -]

Hadnt known of this before and it seems to be coming to a head of steam and has the potential to cause generation long angst.

Farm reclamation stepped up

SAfrica gives white farmers deadline

South Africa has warned white farmers it may seize their properties under the land restitution program if they fail to agree on a selling price within six months.

The program aims to hand back land to blacks who were forcibly removed from their ancestral homes under apartheid, or offer them financial compensation.

This is part of efforts to correct skewed land ownership created under white minority rule.

President Thabo Mbeki's government wants 30 per cent of farmland in black hands by 2014 but the transfer process has been slow, with only about 4 per cent of land transferred so far.

Agriculture and Land Affairs Minister Lulu Xingwana said wrangling with whites over price was one of the main reasons for the low turnover.

"We are now going to negotiate six months - no more, no less," she said at a briefing in the northern Limpopo province.

"Indeed, we don't have time to be talking and talking for 10 years ... because already our people have been waiting."

"At least now we have ... expropriation. Therefore we will no longer waste time negotiating with people who are not committed to transformation."

South Africa has been quick to dismiss comparisons with neighbouring Zimbabwe - where a similar campaign was frequently marked by violence - and vowed to take a more orderly approach to addressing its apartheid and British colonial legacy.

Xingwana's department has already identified several properties that will be taken over if it cannot reach agreement over price with the owners, but it is the first time the government has set a time limit on such talks.

Officials stressed this would only be used as a last resort and farmers have the right to appeal against the decision in court.

Land claims are an especially emotive part of the post-apartheid reforms as they often bring white families who have lived on the land for generations up against blacks whose historical ties to the land run even deeper.

So far, 89 per cent of the nearly 80,000 claims that were lodged by the December 1998 cut-off date have been settled. The government has set a 2008 deadline to finish the process.

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This is the only issue of South Africas ( and Zimbabwes) step into post colonialism that worries me . Are the farmers being recognised for their skill in farming the land , where does generational ownership get overtaken by historical ties? Will the person/people reclaiming the land be as good as the previous owners? Now I understand that the whites were allowed to onsell at any time in the last 100 years so emotion cant be used as a defining argument but for those who dont want to go , how must they feel?

From Israel to Zimbabwe to even Australia land reclamation will always have 2 sides on it. In Zimbabwe we have seen the collapse of the farm economy because of the poorly structured and poorly managed handover/takeovers.

My take is that farms are a part of the free trade economy and the farms should be allowed to remain in control of the current owners until such time as the current owners WANT to sell. Forcing owners to sell at government rates will only lead to many more problems down the track, economically as well as sciologically

 

[section8]

Hadnt known of this before and it seems to be coming to a head of steam and has the potential to cause generation long angst.

Farm reclamation stepped up

SAfrica gives white farmers deadline

South Africa has warned white farmers it may seize their properties under the land restitution program if they fail to agree on a selling price within six months.

It was never in doubt IMO. Not a coincidence that it has begun whilst most of the world's back is turned.

I hope they do not have the hide to request any future aid.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Its been planned on for a while now. Foreign Correspondent (I think it was) touched on it early this year or late last year.
There's a big difference, so far, between the way South Africa is handling it and the way Zimbabwe did. But its worth noting that Mbeke has been very reluctant to condemn Mugabe's practices.

 

[fabulousphil]

Nope ..... Perth is the new South Africa...this has been stated several times, white immigration to the west is continuing at record levels and will continue untill the last white person who can afford to get out will.

 

[- PC -]

Nope ..... Perth is the new South Africa...this has been stated several times, white immigration to the west is continuing at record levels and will continue untill the last white person who can afford to get out will.

But if the SA Gov wont pay them true worth...how can they afford to come?

 

[fabulousphil]

The jewish school in yokine goes to south africa every year to recruit for its school ...... more than half the kids at carmel are from south africa..... when the jews start taking their money out of the country and moving its a pretty good sign its gunna go belly up. (this is not intended to be some sort of slur on jews)

 

[Mr Q]

One of the main problems (as I understand it), is that the payments for resumed land are paid by the individual provinces, not by the national government. This is an issue in some areas because some provinces just can't afford to pay for the farms, thus if a farmer agrees, they may get a price, but then not be paid for many years. This of course then slows the process down incredibly.

Another issue of course for white farmers is what they would do once they've moved off the land. Many would be untrained in any other field, and thus stuck with farming as a career, but can't just move out of South Africa and continue farming as they're not well suited to the higher mechanisation levels (and much lower labour intensity) of farms in other parts of the world such as Australia.

As for South Africa as a whole, my gut feel is that some areas are better than others in terms of stability. Certainly the Western Cape has a completely different feel to it compared to Gauteng (Jo'burg/Pretoria) or the north east of the country in general. On the whole though, I'd be quite surprised if South Africa descended to the level of Zimbabwe - if for no other reason than Zimbabwe's an obvious failure, whether Mbeki criticises it or not.

 

[fabulousphil]

Another issue of course for white farmers is what they would do once they've moved off the land. Many would be untrained in any other field, and thus stuck with farming as a career, but can't just move out of South Africa and continue farming as they're not well suited to the higher mechanisation levels (and much lower labour intensity) of farms in other parts of the world such as Australia.

QUOTE]


At one stage there was quite a bit of talk regarding south african and zimbabwean farmers to move to WA and carry on their farming but petered out due to lack of labour here (one of the reasons)

 

[Murray]

Hey, help me out here.
How did all these white people come by this land in the first place?

 

[Qsaint]

Hey, help me out here.
How did all these white people come by this land in the first place?

The same as they did here in OZ?

The problem is in SA how is handing a 1000 farms back going to help impoverished blacks, there is 30 odd million of them. Whilst it might be just, its a PR exercise, wouldn't the govt be better spending it on water housing etc?

 

[GuruJane]

Some good friends of mine went on a trip to SA afew years ago and were amazed and shocked to find that tourists have to be personally escorted everywhere or stay in their hotels or else be in severe danger of being mugged, raped and murdered.

My friends are intrepid third world travellers and had not expereinced anything like it.

Maybe someone has had a more positive experience.

Why wouldn't SA eventually go the same way as the rest of Africa?

 

[Murray]

The same as they did here in OZ?

The problem is in SA how is handing a 1000 farms back going to help impoverished blacks, there is 30 odd million of them. Whilst it might be just, its a PR exercise, wouldn't the govt be better spending it on water housing etc?

You mean they just walked in and stole it?
And now the government want to give it back to the rightful owners?

How dare they?
Do they have no shame?

And people on this board will tell you something like that is impossible to do - Well I'm confused

 

[Qsaint]

You mean they just walked in and stole it?
And now the government want to give it back to the rightful owners?

How dare they?
Do they have no shame?

And people on this board will tell you something like that is impossible to do - Well I'm confused

Well they are paying them out

I want back my ancestral lands the friggen french stole in 1056, bastards

 

[Mr Q]

Some good friends of mine went on a trip to SA afew years ago and were amazed and shocked to find that tourists have to be personally escorted everywhere or stay in their hotels or else be in severe danger of being mugged, raped and murdered.

My friends are intrepid third world travellers and had not expereinced anything like it.

Maybe someone has had a more positive experience.

Why wouldn't SA eventually go the same way as the rest of Africa?

Well I've had a completely different experience to that. OK, I wouldn't go walking around Jo'burg - or any of the townships, but on the whole, as long as you take basic precautions, its not that unsafe - lock your car when you're driving etc.

Cape Town - the touristy bits - is reasonably safe (although I wouldn't suggest a visit to the Cape Flats except on a guided tour). Nearly all the smaller towns I ever stopped in are fine - not as safe as they might be in other parts of the world, but not particularly unsafe either. I would have said similar in feeling to me as bits of Turkey. I can't say that I've visited Durban, but I've at least been through most of the major cities (Jo'burg - fast, Cape Town, Pretoria, Port Elizabeth), and none except Johannesburg gave me an sense of immediate danger.

However, there is no way I would use any public transport infrastructure in SA - the only way to get around is by car.

 

[- PC -]

You mean they just walked in and stole it?

When did they steal it Murray? A week ago? A year? 20? 100? 200? How far back did you want to go? Who did the Bantus steal the land from?

Why dont they give back Crown Lands first?

 

[Audemars Piguet]

Some good friends of mine went on a trip to SA afew years ago and were amazed and shocked to find that tourists have to be personally escorted everywhere or stay in their hotels or else be in severe danger of being mugged, raped and murdered.

My friends are intrepid third world travellers and had not expereinced anything like it.

Maybe someone has had a more positive experience.

Why wouldn't SA eventually go the same way as the rest of Africa?

Sounds a lot like my experience in Southern Africa.

On arrival at J’burg airport a bloodshot eyed black guy asked me for a smoke, and snatched the whole packet when I had the decency to reciprocate. On the way to the Hotel our black cab driver picked up his mate who had just robbed a jewellery store.

That was my first 15 minutes in South Africa.

Our hotel in Zimbabwe was like an army barrack, surrounded by guards with serious firepower. They escorted us everywhere, including the 3 minute walk to Vic Falls during which time we were swarmed by blacks selling stolen souvenirs (so we were told).

Botswana was surprisingly OK, the most politically stable country in the region, the safest, and the only place I would consider returning to.

Its such a shame, Southern Africa has so much potential, but so little hope. Tourism has died in the arse, and all the whites want out. See you later economy.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

It begs the question how are they gonna handle the World Cup in 2010?

 

[Sir_Adrian84]

It begs the question how are they gonna handle the World Cup in 2010?

Although unlikely, they could lose the world cup.

This happened for the 1986 WC when Columbia lost it because they couldn't afford it so it went to Mexico.

 

[funkyfreo]

Don't we have compulsory aquisition laws for when private means can't reach a sale price for land wanted for a govt project? It is hardly revolutionary.

Could be wiser to just use the $$$ to invest in jobs for all saffies, rather than some land for a few, and just have good loans available for purchase of farms on the open market.

They should have Midnight Oil singing the theme song.... The time has come...

 

[Teagson]

Both countries have been spiralling towards destruction ever since they let 'the monkeys out to run the zoo' so to speak. Ian Smith and Apartheid were Zimbabwe's and South Africa's respective and last bastions of defense against a world that seemingly demonised a white minority intent on preserving colonialism and general order. Funnily enough, the living conditions for blacks were generally higher during the Apartheid era in comparison to other African nations, and black immigration into the country was at an all time high, despite the 'atrocities' being committed against them.

I also find it amusing that the corrupt South African government attempts to reclaim 'ancestral homelands' for the blacks, when in fact no kaffirs actually lived within the vicinity of South Africa's current borders at the time of settlement. When Jan van Riebeeck arrived in 1652 there we no blacks for more than a 1000 miles, and in the 1820's they still weren't sighted for more than 500 miles.

It's now only a matter of time before all whites vacate the country, and once that occurs, we will quickly witness the ridiculous inflation and rampant farming problems that struck and still affect Zimbabwe.

South Africa: What Happens when Whites are Expelled

IOL: "We will kill all the whites, all of them"

Farm Murders in South Africa

However, we all know whites will be responsible when this inevitable occasion results don't we? After all, the white race has oppressed, discriminated, nay, attacked blacks and consciously held them back from achievement for as long as man has existed, ain't that right Murray?

 

[- PC -]

I also find it amusing that the corrupt South African government attempts to reclaim 'ancestral homelands' for the blacks, when in fact no kaffirs actually lived within the vicinity of South Africa's current borders at the time of settlement. When Jan van Riebeeck arrived in 1652 there we no blacks for more than a 1000 miles, and in the 1820's they still weren't sighted for more than 500 miles.

I will await further discussion on this as I dont think it is entirely true

It's now only a matter of time before all whites vacate the country, and once that occurs, we will quickly witness the ridiculous inflation and rampant farming problems that struck and still affect Zimbabwe.

This is where I compared SA to Zimbabwe. Racist or not the whites in Zimbabwe are/were better farmers than the current occupiers. I do believe that is a matter of which flunky was given the land rather than any notion blacks cant run the farms.

But the fear I have is the similar process will occur. Flunkies getting prime farm land and it turning to dustbowls and wasted farmland

Then we will see the turmoil triple

 

[Sir_Adrian84]

It's now only a matter of time before all whites vacate the country, and once that occurs, we will quickly witness the ridiculous inflation and rampant farming problems that struck and still affect Zimbabwe.

South Africa: What Happens when Whites are Expelled

IOL: "We will kill all the whites, all of them"

Farm Murders in South Africa

When RSA does go under, it will be up to us to have to prop them up via aid etc when they have a good system now.

 

[Andre]

It's hardly a surprise. Give it another 20 years and South Africa will be as much as basket case as the rest of Africa. Then they'll come crawling to the West for aid. And the cycle of corrupt ex-colonial countries using emotional blackmail to prop them up will continue.

The West should grow a backbone and tell these countries they can either be run properly by the West or they can sort out their own problems.

 

[Qsaint]

.

I also find it amusing that the corrupt South African government attempts to reclaim 'ancestral homelands' for the blacks, when in fact no kaffirs actually lived within the vicinity of South Africa's current borders at the time of settlement. When Jan van Riebeeck arrived in 1652 there we no blacks for more than a 1000 miles, and in the 1820's they still weren't sighted for more than 500 miles.

Kaffir is a pretty offensive word. The Zulu for instance were within SA Borders since 800 AD, the vortreckers did take their land in 1830's. Basutho 15th century as well

 

[Mr Q]

I also find it amusing that the corrupt South African government attempts to reclaim 'ancestral homelands' for the blacks, when in fact no kaffirs actually lived within the vicinity of South Africa's current borders at the time of settlement. When Jan van Riebeeck arrived in 1652 there we no blacks for more than a 1000 miles, and in the 1820's they still weren't sighted for more than 500 miles.

Partially true for the Western Cape. Not true for the rest of South Africa.

Of course, why anyone would want to take any notice of you when you deliberately throw in incendiary racist terms like "kaffir" I wouldn't know.