South Africa - Where to now?

[corbies]

SJN Hearings: Boucher apologises for offensive songs, nicknames during playing days

South Africa's head coach available for one-on-one discussions with any former team-mates whom he has offended

www.espncricinfo.com

A bit going on in these Social Justice and Nation-Building committee hearings.

 

[Gough]

SJN Hearings: Boucher apologises for offensive songs, nicknames during playing days

South Africa's head coach available for one-on-one discussions with any former team-mates whom he has offended

www.espncricinfo.com

A bit going on in these Social Justice and Nation-Building committee hearings.

Structural racism doesn't disappear overnight just because of democracy. This is why quotas were/are vital.

 

[jle101]

I thought it was big of Boucher to stand up & admit his past wrongdoings.

 

[Gough]

I thought it was big of Boucher to stand up & admit his past wrongdoings.

It's a little bit late but also understandable, he's a couple of years younger than me and a product of his time. He would have grown up only knowing Africans as maids or gardeners, never as equals and he would have been taught that Apartheid is necessary. That's what I mean about structural racism, for whites of that era racism was in the blood by nature of where they lived, it was bred into them.

 

[jle101]

It's a little bit late but also understandable, he's a couple of years younger than me and a product of his time. He would have grown up only knowing Africans as maids or gardeners, never as equals and he would have been taught that Apartheid is necessary. That's what I mean about structural racism, for whites of that era racism was in the blood by nature of where they lived, it was bred into them.

Absolutely. The cultural shift would have been very slow in RSA during the early years. Yes, it might be a bit late, but for Bouch to put his name forward as someone who contributed to the poor team culture in those days, & contacting past players to express his regret, is really helpful imo. It would have been easy for his to remain nameless & wait for this to blow over.

 

[Marcel Proust]

Saffies bowling looks scary good

 

[Around the Wicket]

Saffies bowling looks scary good

In South Africa were the ball moves alot but in other countries I see them struggling.

 

[Pippen94]

In South Africa were the ball moves alot but in other countries I see them struggling.

Won last 3 series in Australia

 

[PhatBoy]

In South Africa were the ball moves alot but in other countries I see them struggling.

Rabada averages 27 outside SA.
Nortje got spanked in India but alternatively turned around and averaged mid 20s in the series loss in Pakistan.
At 200 centimetres I think Marco Janssen might just have some of the tools required to succeed in other conditions. Ngidi averages 29 outside SA. Maharaj averages 29 outside SA.

I’d keep my powder dry about how they’ll go outside SA just for now

 

[Sphynx]

Rabada averages 27 outside SA.
Nortje got spanked in India but alternatively turned around and averaged mid 20s in the series loss in Pakistan.
At 200 centimetres I think Marco Janssen might just have some of the tools required to succeed in other conditions. Ngidi averages 29 outside SA. Maharaj averages 29 outside SA.

I’d keep my powder dry about how they’ll go outside SA just for now

Looking forward to both the next home and away tour there.

 

[Cleavy]

Australia set for tour of South Africa

After having the three-Test series scrapped, the two nations are set to clash next year.

www.zerowicket.com

Aug 2023 seems like an odd time to hold a Test series in South Africa

 

[Gough]

Australia set for tour of South Africa

After having the three-Test series scrapped, the two nations are set to clash next year.

www.zerowicket.com

Aug 2023 seems like an odd time to hold a Test series in South Africa

Should be okay on the high veldt, doubt they'll be playing in Capetown.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

 

[PhatBoy]

Can’t see the link mate

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Can’t see the link mate

Whoops it was just the photo and tagline

Boucher charged with gross misconduct by CSA | cricket.com.au

Former South Africa wicketkeeper-batter to defend himself against allegations of racism during his…

www.cricket.com.au

 

[PhatBoy]

Whoops it was just the photo and tagline

Boucher charged with gross misconduct by CSA | cricket.com.au

Former South Africa wicketkeeper-batter to defend himself against allegations of racism during his…

www.cricket.com.au

What are the actual allegations against Boucher? I’ve read the allegations against de Villiers and they are laughable at best but from memory the stories about Boucher were a bit more serious?

I’m not sure where I stand on a lot of the retrospective stuff; I abhor racism in any form but I also love that as people we can learn and change and while it is just an assumption I would have thought that given some of the nice improvements in the SA side of late, under Boucher and led by a lot of coloured players, he seems to have a good relationship and understanding of what he’s dealing with

 

[corbies]

What are the actual allegations against Boucher? I’ve read the allegations against de Villiers and they are laughable at best but from memory the stories about Boucher were a bit more serious?

I’m not sure where I stand on a lot of the retrospective stuff; I abhor racism in any form but I also love that as people we can learn and change and while it is just an assumption I would have thought that given some of the nice improvements in the SA side of late, under Boucher and led by a lot of coloured players, he seems to have a good relationship and understanding of what he’s dealing with

Except for assistant coach Enoch Nkwe resigning in August under Boucher for "concerns about the functioning and culture of the team environment" which is part of his charge sheet that CSA have given him.

The main accusation around Boucher was that he made up a song that called Paul Adams "brown s**t".

 

[PhatBoy]

Except for assistant coach Enoch Nkwe resigning in August under Boucher for "concerns about the functioning and culture of the team environment" which is part of his charge sheet that CSA have given him.

The main accusation around Boucher was that he made up a song that called Paul Adams "brown sh*t".

That’s pretty bad. Apologies I wasn’t aware of that coach’s resignation as I’ve said I’m a bit vague about the charges beyond de Villiers making a selection call that he said - and facts back it up - was based around concerns that the player in question wasn’t experienced enough.

That’s a pretty serious charge against Boucher and I don’t blame Adams for being pissed

 

[010203]

SJN follow-up: CSA will argue in favour of dismissing Mark Boucher at disciplinary hearing

Charges against him bring into question his handling of the BLM campaign, his management of former assistant coach Nkwe, and his treatment of then team-mate Adams

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[frankrizzo]

The charge that he made the team manager deal with all the black players over blm issues while he dealt with only the white ones seems really bad to me, if thats proven he can and should be sacked.

 

[to1994]

The charge that he made the team manager deal with all the black players over blm issues while he dealt with only the white ones seems really bad to me, if thats proven he can and should be sacked.

Perhaps, but the modern way seems to be that you need to acknowledge race/skin colour and not pretend your experiences around racism are the same.

He may well have thought he was doing the right thing as he wouldn't have a proper understanding of what they were going through, the optics obviously don't look good with the stuff about the song, however he's owned up to it and admitted to singing it but made it sound like a team culture thing and everyone was involved.

Not sure what's gained from throwing him out as Coach years later unless you want to throw out all White South African coaches/administrators. If he's actually done malicious/racist things while Coach then sure, sack him.

 

[Gough]

Interesting defence.

SJN follow-up: CSA will argue in favour of dismissing Mark Boucher at disciplinary hearing

Charges against him bring into question his handling of the BLM campaign, his management of former assistant coach Nkwe, and his treatment of then team-mate Adams

www.espncricinfo.com

He also said CSA did not appropriately educate players in the immediate post-Apartheid era

Not sure it's job of a cricket board to instruct a person on how not to be a racist turd.

 

[PhatBoy]

Interesting defence.

SJN follow-up: CSA will argue in favour of dismissing Mark Boucher at disciplinary hearing

Charges against him bring into question his handling of the BLM campaign, his management of former assistant coach Nkwe, and his treatment of then team-mate Adams

www.espncricinfo.com

Not sure it's job of a cricket board to instruct a person on how not to be a racist turd.

It’s not and it’s something I personally will never get my head around but people are products of what they grew up in too. You’d like to think independent thought would be enough to educate most people but when you see the world through certain sets of eyes that haven’t been opened properly it leads to poor actions and thinking they are normal.

Doesn’t make it right, of course, I’m not saying that.

 

[Gough]

It’s not and it’s something I personally will never get my head around but people are products of what they grew up in too. You’d like to think independent thought would be enough to educate most people but when you see the world through certain sets of eyes that haven’t been opened properly it leads to poor actions and thinking they are normal.

Doesn’t make it right, of course, I’m not saying that.

Boucher would have been sixteen in 1994 and there isn't a South African who lived through that time who can't have been acutely aware of not only what racism looks like but also what the consequences of it are. It makes it pretty difficult to plead ignorance.

 

[PhatBoy]

Boucher would have been sixteen in 1994 and there isn't a South African who lived through that time who can't have been acutely aware of not only what racism looks like but also what the consequences of it are. It makes it pretty difficult to plead ignorance.

I’m not referencing him pleading ignorance I’m talking purely about basic education of what is and isn’t acceptable post apartheid.

T give you a very basic example, and I’m not saying anything like this applies to Adams - at uni we had a guy in our dorm who was as black as the ace of spades and I absolutely loved him- he was 100 per cent aboriginal but he dressed like a member of the Wu Tang Clan, it was actually the coolest thing I’d ever seen. He sat lower in his little hatchback than a snake’s belly. We became good mates and he used to take the piss out of himself quite a bit, say things when he lost a game of poker ‘it’s coz I’m a black c*** right?’ Etc etc. one night one of my good mates who doesn’t have a malicious bone in his body or a racist one, made a joke that basically concluded with him calling this guy a black c***. I could see the hurt in the guys eyes.

My buddy thought he was being funny and oddly inclusive but he wasn’t he was being offensive. But looking back he probably didn’t realise that just because it’s ok for a coloured person to make those jokes doesn’t mean it’s ok for him to do it