Yes Stevens. For us longer term posters the term 'a unique blend of speed and endurance' sends a shiver down the spine.
Opinion Speed and Endurance vs SpeedEndurance
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RussellEbertHandball
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The draft camp/combine top 10 endurance test results for Port player's drafted since 2006. Reminder top 10 of all time draft camp results is at
http://www.topendsports.com/sport/afl/testing-draft-results-best.htm
3km TT
2007
=6th Lobbe 10.49
1st place 10.23
2008
=9th Broadbent 10.57
1st place 10.17
2010
2nd O'Shea 10.03
1st place 10.00
2012
2nd Clurey 10.01
1st place 9.48
2013
5th Bryne-Jones 10.00
1st place 9.32
** 2005 Tom Rischbieth ran a 9.30 which was the record until Jack Hiscox ran 9.18 in last October's combine. Rischbieth was a classic athlete first draftee. We used our 1st pick #11 on him in the December 2005/ie 2006 AFL Rookie draft. Maybe he was the first time I heard Rohde use the famous unique blend of speed and endurance about one of our draftees. Rohde started after the 2004 trading period but not sure if before the 2004 draft.
Shuttle Run/Beep Test
2007
=10th Lobbe 14.3
1st place 15.2
2010
7th O'Shea 14.10
1st place 15.7
2012
4th Clurey 15.1
1st place 15.5
2013
5th Bryne-Jones 15.2
1st place 16.6
** 2005 Tom Rischbieth ran a 15.8 which was the record until 2011 when Brad Hill did a 16.1 and Will Hoskin-Elliot did a 15.12
Kane Mitchell did a 16.2 at the WA draft camp/combine in October 2011 - which places him in topendsports top 15 world wide list. Bill Hartung at 16.6 has the best ever at an AFL draft camp in 2013 but Daniel Jackson of Gippsland Power did a 16.9 at a TAC test in March 2012 = 9th on that world wide list. As the topendsports site says - "There are several versions of the test, and the one that is used is not always reported with the results, and this should be considered when comparing test results. For example, there are versions of the beep test conducted over 15m, and the Yo-Yo test is sometimes mistakenly called the beep test."
http://www.topendsports.com/sport/afl/testing-draft-results-best.htm
3km TT
2007
=6th Lobbe 10.49
1st place 10.23
2008
=9th Broadbent 10.57
1st place 10.17
2010
2nd O'Shea 10.03
1st place 10.00
2012
2nd Clurey 10.01
1st place 9.48
2013
5th Bryne-Jones 10.00
1st place 9.32
** 2005 Tom Rischbieth ran a 9.30 which was the record until Jack Hiscox ran 9.18 in last October's combine. Rischbieth was a classic athlete first draftee. We used our 1st pick #11 on him in the December 2005/ie 2006 AFL Rookie draft. Maybe he was the first time I heard Rohde use the famous unique blend of speed and endurance about one of our draftees. Rohde started after the 2004 trading period but not sure if before the 2004 draft.
Shuttle Run/Beep Test
2007
=10th Lobbe 14.3
1st place 15.2
2010
7th O'Shea 14.10
1st place 15.7
2012
4th Clurey 15.1
1st place 15.5
2013
5th Bryne-Jones 15.2
1st place 16.6
** 2005 Tom Rischbieth ran a 15.8 which was the record until 2011 when Brad Hill did a 16.1 and Will Hoskin-Elliot did a 15.12
Kane Mitchell did a 16.2 at the WA draft camp/combine in October 2011 - which places him in topendsports top 15 world wide list. Bill Hartung at 16.6 has the best ever at an AFL draft camp in 2013 but Daniel Jackson of Gippsland Power did a 16.9 at a TAC test in March 2012 = 9th on that world wide list. As the topendsports site says - "There are several versions of the test, and the one that is used is not always reported with the results, and this should be considered when comparing test results. For example, there are versions of the beep test conducted over 15m, and the Yo-Yo test is sometimes mistakenly called the beep test."
RussellEbertHandball
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Over in the preseason thread there was some discussion about Kane Cornes' best time for the 3km TT being 9:12 and I mentioned Phil Carman doing the Tan track in Melbourne in 10 minutes something. Looks like I was a bit ambitious in my estimate.
Craig Motram has the record for 3.85km course set in 2004 and he knocked off the best times of a few Kenyans.
From my digging around it looks like Carman's best time - which hasnt been bettered by any AFL footballer is 11:57. In the Phil Carman story on Fox Footy Headliners doco it had the time but I recorded that on VHS and my VCR doesnt work anymore. When he was on Open Mike with Mike Sheahan he said his best time for running 4 laps ie almost 15.5kms was 52 minutes.
I have found a few mid 12 minutes by other AFL footballers recorded over the years. Blicavs in 78kg days would beat it no worries maybe even now would. Now you can't be 100% accurate as the TT measurements arent exact to the cm like an athletics track but this is a good enough guestimate.
Kane
3,000m in 9:12 ie 552 seconds is an average speed of 5.43478 m/sec
Phil Carman
3,850m in 11:57 ie 717 seconds is an average speed of 5.36959 m/sec
If Kane could keep up his average pace or greater for the last 850m around the Tan he would beat Carman's time by 8 or 9 seconds.
Craig Motram has the record for 3.85km course set in 2004 and he knocked off the best times of a few Kenyans.
From my digging around it looks like Carman's best time - which hasnt been bettered by any AFL footballer is 11:57. In the Phil Carman story on Fox Footy Headliners doco it had the time but I recorded that on VHS and my VCR doesnt work anymore. When he was on Open Mike with Mike Sheahan he said his best time for running 4 laps ie almost 15.5kms was 52 minutes.
I have found a few mid 12 minutes by other AFL footballers recorded over the years. Blicavs in 78kg days would beat it no worries maybe even now would. Now you can't be 100% accurate as the TT measurements arent exact to the cm like an athletics track but this is a good enough guestimate.
Kane
3,000m in 9:12 ie 552 seconds is an average speed of 5.43478 m/sec
Phil Carman
3,850m in 11:57 ie 717 seconds is an average speed of 5.36959 m/sec
If Kane could keep up his average pace or greater for the last 850m around the Tan he would beat Carman's time by 8 or 9 seconds.
Didn't realise Lobbe was that quick. Makes getting Ryder here so Lobbe can be used around the ground/forward instead of carefully managed even more of a plus then I realised.
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I think that we always tried to have that speedy player in our team. The search for that so called speed endurance player intensified as a result of Collingwood's altitude training program and their ability to provide ultra pressure around the ground. This was when we were sheep and tried to follow every trend going around without being able to personalize our own gameplan. In fact I think our plan was, "Play like Collingwood but when it doesn't work, switch it!!"
Ford Fairlane
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Fascinating stuff but I have to admit my first thought was directed to an ad from one of our new sponsors ... SpeedEndurance HungryThirsty
RussellEbertHandball
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Peter Burgoyne, Fabian Francis, Donald Dickie, Danyle Pearce were all example of very quick players we drafted. Even Daniel Motlop was quick but he wasnt much good after a 40m flat out dash. He didnt have SpeedEndurance.
To me Shaun Burgoyne had it all, Speed, SpeedEndurance and that blend of Speed and Endurance. The thing about Shaun was that he looked to be cruising - but he wasnt. Peter Motley is probably the closest I have seen to Shaun in terms of looking like they are cruising but are blistering quick. Chris Judd has Speed and SpeedEndurance but he looks to be motoring when he has the ball in his hands or is chasing someone.
To me this is classic Shaun. He is motoring - looking really slow but when he puts on the after burners he makes up so much ground on Jetta and a rarity he looks really fast.
Ford Fairlane
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- #33
Gavin Wanganeen was the quickest of them all.
While only at Port a short while, Andy McLeod had elite speed as a junior and built his endurance capacity by getting incredibly fit as his career wore on.
I remember a quote from former NFL wide receiver Jerry Rice that as you get older you have to work harder because your body's natural athleticism wanes with age. He played 20 years at the highest level and is one of the game's greats.
While only at Port a short while, Andy McLeod had elite speed as a junior and built his endurance capacity by getting incredibly fit as his career wore on.
I remember a quote from former NFL wide receiver Jerry Rice that as you get older you have to work harder because your body's natural athleticism wanes with age. He played 20 years at the highest level and is one of the game's greats.
Ant Bear
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I always thought that speed and endurance meant pumping away, finishing fast, then getting it up again, whilst speedendurance meant pumping quickly and lasting for a long time.
But I could be wrong...
But I could be wrong...
proman_x
Premium Platinum
Now Burgo and Port have opened the fitness coaching academy, you will probably find a bit of this info is passed on. Nice to see another Nth Rivers poster, just a shame it is from the wrong club
I love watching him run too, but have my doubts about whether he is clean. This seems to be a matter of some controversy. Perhaps he is just that elite and genetically gifted (as was Thorpe with his size seventeen feet).
Regarding the original post, I would have Mitchell in the SpeedEndurance category. Not based on any statistics I have seen. Just because he is reputedly one of the fittest players in the club, and I couldn't see him fitting into the spped only category.
RussellEbertHandball
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Re being genetically gifted, blackcat put it well in a thread on the Hot Topic board re Essendon - "All these 100 athletes are freaks of nature. Bolt is not THE freak of nature. They are all off the bell curve. off the curve. Not standard deviations. but deviations from humankind."
But if you think Bolt or Thorpe are/were 100% clean and only genetic advantage + hard work + superior coaching/methods, then you are kidding yourself. Read this LINK re the whole board of Jamaica Anti-Doping Commission resigned in November 2013 - only one out of competition test was done on track and field athletes from February 2012 to the start of the London Olympics in July 2012 and then when they cracked down gold medal sprinters Asafa Powell, Veronica Campbell Brown and a women's relay silver medalist tested positive. Also if you havent read it, read this post I put up in the Drugs and AFL thread on this board, re ex US track and field coach Angel "Memo" Heredia did an interview with German magazine Spiegel a few years ago - LINK you will have even more doubts - or maybe that should read have no doubts any more.
One of the reasons why I didnt put Mitchell in SpeedEndurance column was that in 2013 and in early 2014 when he was a sub he would come in and tear it up but when he started on the ground or in the 21 he had very little impact after half time in those games. The two games I do remember that he did well over 4 quarters ie the Endurance side, was the Freo game at AO and Sydney at the SCG last year.
RussellEbertHandball
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Jacko was on the radio this arvo and confirmed something I was thing about at 1/4 time and into the 2nd quarter yesterday.
Unlike a lot of 2013 and most of 2014, we arent grinding our opponents into the ground in the first 3 quarters with hard running that may or may not be rewarded on the scoreboard. As Jacko said, in the past it wasnt that we found another gear and ran over the top of sides, we just kept up our high level of running at the same level in the 4th at the same level of the first 3 quarters and others couldnt keep up as they had spent their petrol tickets in the first 3 quarters.
We have been starting games helter skelter style this year and apart from the Hawks game, we tend to drop away in the 2nd half of the first quarter and also not push sides to the limit in the next two quarters. So come the last quarter our opponents still have enough in the tank to run with us and even overtake us.
Most people who watch a 100m race - even a 200m or 400m race - make the mistake and believe that the winner runs over the top of his/her opponents by increasing his/her speed to win the race. That isnt true. What happens is the winner has the least amount of deceleration from their peak speed. Proof of that is the tables of 100m world record sprints I put in the first post in this thread.
I reckon Jacko was 100% right today. We arent working hard enough in the first 3 quarters to put our opponents to the sword and so that great advantage of decelerating much less than our opponents in the last quarter has vanished into thin air.
Now I dont know how much harder we can work in the first 3 quarters than we have been, Burgo and his team will have some of that data, but if we want to get back to what we were doing last year, we have to do that, aware that teams are doing everything to counter that advantage we once possessed, as well as having to adjust our game plan to counter other oppo strategies.
Unlike a lot of 2013 and most of 2014, we arent grinding our opponents into the ground in the first 3 quarters with hard running that may or may not be rewarded on the scoreboard. As Jacko said, in the past it wasnt that we found another gear and ran over the top of sides, we just kept up our high level of running at the same level in the 4th at the same level of the first 3 quarters and others couldnt keep up as they had spent their petrol tickets in the first 3 quarters.
We have been starting games helter skelter style this year and apart from the Hawks game, we tend to drop away in the 2nd half of the first quarter and also not push sides to the limit in the next two quarters. So come the last quarter our opponents still have enough in the tank to run with us and even overtake us.
Most people who watch a 100m race - even a 200m or 400m race - make the mistake and believe that the winner runs over the top of his/her opponents by increasing his/her speed to win the race. That isnt true. What happens is the winner has the least amount of deceleration from their peak speed. Proof of that is the tables of 100m world record sprints I put in the first post in this thread.
I reckon Jacko was 100% right today. We arent working hard enough in the first 3 quarters to put our opponents to the sword and so that great advantage of decelerating much less than our opponents in the last quarter has vanished into thin air.
Now I dont know how much harder we can work in the first 3 quarters than we have been, Burgo and his team will have some of that data, but if we want to get back to what we were doing last year, we have to do that, aware that teams are doing everything to counter that advantage we once possessed, as well as having to adjust our game plan to counter other oppo strategies.
Well it's fairly obvious that if you have possession the opposition is going to be chasing more. In the simplest one if we are having to start our runs in the back half that's an extra 50 odd metres each play we need to cover. Versus if we win it it's the opposition having to burn the petrol. Fix our dysfunctional midfield and everything else will fall into place.
Ford Fairlane
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So Jacko's saying now what I said pre-match in the gameday thread.
I am available for a nominal consultancy fee.
I am available for a nominal consultancy fee.
Exactly - what ive been saying all year - GET MANIC - the most used word coming from players and coaches pre season was "composure" -So Jacko's saying now what I said pre-match in the gameday thread.
I am available for a nominal consultancy fee.
get the *ucking ball and run run run
I always thought from round one that our fitness OK.
It's just that we have wasted so much energy trying to apply the strategy to counter the opposition by playing dumb football.
Whilst watching my son at his basketball training, there is a player who is tall and lanky who is very, very quick. I noticed that when he accelerates, his centre of gravity is very low to the ground and when he is at full stride his legs and arms start flying everywhere but never the less he is very quick. I nicknamed him as the gazelle. I said to his parent that he should be a 100mtr sprinter, he has the makings of another Bolt 1.0.
This player can run up and down for the whole game without missing a beat. Now this kid is only 11, only been playing sports for a year, basketball and Footy, so it has to be genetic regarding Speed and Endurance.
We have much smaller players who are quicker over a shorter distance but when over a certain distance his long stride becomes come into play apposed to the smaller players taking 2 strides to his 1.
Different codes of football require different attributes in athletes. The World Game requires SpeedEndurance, so to basketball. The AFL requires both attributes, but more so SpeedEndurance.
To save energy, kick the Ball "Accurately", so the only sprinting required is for the leading player to sprint 10-20mtrs with the overlapping of the palyers to accept the give.
We have to be smarter to conserve energy during to course of the game, know when to chip around, and know when to accelerate as one.
It's just that we have wasted so much energy trying to apply the strategy to counter the opposition by playing dumb football.
Whilst watching my son at his basketball training, there is a player who is tall and lanky who is very, very quick. I noticed that when he accelerates, his centre of gravity is very low to the ground and when he is at full stride his legs and arms start flying everywhere but never the less he is very quick. I nicknamed him as the gazelle. I said to his parent that he should be a 100mtr sprinter, he has the makings of another Bolt 1.0.
This player can run up and down for the whole game without missing a beat. Now this kid is only 11, only been playing sports for a year, basketball and Footy, so it has to be genetic regarding Speed and Endurance.
We have much smaller players who are quicker over a shorter distance but when over a certain distance his long stride becomes come into play apposed to the smaller players taking 2 strides to his 1.
Different codes of football require different attributes in athletes. The World Game requires SpeedEndurance, so to basketball. The AFL requires both attributes, but more so SpeedEndurance.
To save energy, kick the Ball "Accurately", so the only sprinting required is for the leading player to sprint 10-20mtrs with the overlapping of the palyers to accept the give.
We have to be smarter to conserve energy during to course of the game, know when to chip around, and know when to accelerate as one.
RussellEbertHandball
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- #44
How many times this year have you noticed players who lead and get s**t delivery and have had to run extra distances unnecessarily and it eventually goes out of bounds look up and glares sternly back at the kicker?? Since Ollie did it against North I have noticed it 2 or 3 times a game.
BIG MATTY WHITE
Premiership Player
Very interesting read REH...
thanks
thanks
There's the distance gained stats. Is the distance travelled in a game easily available? I'd hazard our ratio of distance gained / distance travelled has dropped markedly this year. Lots of run for not much (supporter) fun.
RussellEbertHandball
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Nah that would be GPS data only the club has.
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Haven't seen much advantage of our new GPS guy yet.
RussellEbertHandball
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Jacko tells the AFLPA what he told the 5AA boys but a bit more succinctly
http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/jackson-trengove-the-man-with-a-plan/
Their ability to run out games was praised by many in 2014, but after winning 16 of its 22 fourth quarters last year, Port Adelaide is ranked last in the competition for last terms, having won just one for the season. But, as Trengove explains, the club has a plan to fix that too.
“It’s not actually fourth quarters that are our problem. We’re not working hard enough early on in games, which was one of our key things [in 2014].
“Last year we were working teams over early on in games, and it’d then reflect in our last quarters when we were able to sustain that running and break teams open. This year we’re still working hard in fourth quarters but we haven’t worked hard enough in the first three.
“That’s one thing that we’re addressing. Hopefully we can get our work-rate back up and work harder in the next few games.”
http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/jackson-trengove-the-man-with-a-plan/
http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/jackson-trengove-the-man-with-a-plan/
Their ability to run out games was praised by many in 2014, but after winning 16 of its 22 fourth quarters last year, Port Adelaide is ranked last in the competition for last terms, having won just one for the season. But, as Trengove explains, the club has a plan to fix that too.
“It’s not actually fourth quarters that are our problem. We’re not working hard enough early on in games, which was one of our key things [in 2014].
“Last year we were working teams over early on in games, and it’d then reflect in our last quarters when we were able to sustain that running and break teams open. This year we’re still working hard in fourth quarters but we haven’t worked hard enough in the first three.
“That’s one thing that we’re addressing. Hopefully we can get our work-rate back up and work harder in the next few games.”
http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/jackson-trengove-the-man-with-a-plan/
RussellEbertHandball
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Big Mladen spoke to SpeedEndurance.com 3 years ago.
http://speedendurance.com/2012/07/06/interview-with-mladen-jovanovic-5-questions/#
This is Part 11 of the weekly “Friday Five” series where I ask 5 tough questions to world class elite coaches.
With Spain defeating Italy at the 2012 UEFA EuroCup, I feel it’s only fitting I interview a Football (soccer) Coach. While the better team won, it was clear that Italy looked fatigued and sluggish, and you can’t argue that Spain had an extra day of rest to prepare for the final game. So I asked about conditioning, testing and training.
In this interview, we have Mladen Jovanovic, a physical preparation coach from Belgrade, Serbia, currently serving the position of head physical preparation coach at Hammarby soccer club from Stockholm, Sweden. He is also a representative for Tudor Bompa Institute for Serbia and Croatia. Friday Five is sponsored by Freelap Track and Field, a leader in electronic timing.
Interview with Mladen Jovanovic
Q1 – SpeedEndurance.com: You have a speed and power background and many coaches in football clubs are labeled fitness coaches as they tend to be very specialized in conditioning and very little on speed and power. While the sport requires great conditioning could you get into the needs of power in football?
Mladen Jovanovic: In my opinion most team sports are more similar in this regard than different – you need to have good vertical jump, good 5-10m acceleration, good speed (up to 40-60m, but that depends on the sport), good reactive strength, quick feet for quick repositioning and good, should I call it lateral explosive power. Compared to endurance qualities the power qualities are less trainable (which doesn’t mean we should neglect them, au contraire) and that might be one of the reasons why physical preparation coaches emphasize endurance – because effect of their work is easily seen by the naked eye, along with being less coaching and time demanding compared to power/speed training. Luckily, football (soccer) can be considered mixed sport (term I first heared from Lyle McDonald… see this link for more information) which mean that players doesn’t need to be extreme in neither speed/power nor endurance nor the training program in that regard.
Q2 – SpeedEndurance.com: You do some conditioning tests and training methods that are less known, could you share what those are and why you came to your conclusions?
Read more at linked site
http://speedendurance.com/2012/07/06/interview-with-mladen-jovanovic-5-questions/#
This is Part 11 of the weekly “Friday Five” series where I ask 5 tough questions to world class elite coaches.
With Spain defeating Italy at the 2012 UEFA EuroCup, I feel it’s only fitting I interview a Football (soccer) Coach. While the better team won, it was clear that Italy looked fatigued and sluggish, and you can’t argue that Spain had an extra day of rest to prepare for the final game. So I asked about conditioning, testing and training.
In this interview, we have Mladen Jovanovic, a physical preparation coach from Belgrade, Serbia, currently serving the position of head physical preparation coach at Hammarby soccer club from Stockholm, Sweden. He is also a representative for Tudor Bompa Institute for Serbia and Croatia. Friday Five is sponsored by Freelap Track and Field, a leader in electronic timing.
Interview with Mladen Jovanovic
Q1 – SpeedEndurance.com: You have a speed and power background and many coaches in football clubs are labeled fitness coaches as they tend to be very specialized in conditioning and very little on speed and power. While the sport requires great conditioning could you get into the needs of power in football?
Mladen Jovanovic: In my opinion most team sports are more similar in this regard than different – you need to have good vertical jump, good 5-10m acceleration, good speed (up to 40-60m, but that depends on the sport), good reactive strength, quick feet for quick repositioning and good, should I call it lateral explosive power. Compared to endurance qualities the power qualities are less trainable (which doesn’t mean we should neglect them, au contraire) and that might be one of the reasons why physical preparation coaches emphasize endurance – because effect of their work is easily seen by the naked eye, along with being less coaching and time demanding compared to power/speed training. Luckily, football (soccer) can be considered mixed sport (term I first heared from Lyle McDonald… see this link for more information) which mean that players doesn’t need to be extreme in neither speed/power nor endurance nor the training program in that regard.
Q2 – SpeedEndurance.com: You do some conditioning tests and training methods that are less known, could you share what those are and why you came to your conclusions?
Read more at linked site
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