Moved Thread St Kilda 2023 vs St Kilda 2009

[White Dogg]

After 4 rounds

St Kilda 2009 - 4-0 at 200.4%
453 points for and 226 points against

St Kilda 2023 - 4-0 at 160.4%
364 points for and 227 points against

When it comes the playing lists I think the 2023 list is far more even and balanced. 2009 list had far better top end talent but the gap between their best and worst players was stark. The gap between the best and worst players on the 2023 list isn't that large.

The 2023 Saints have a 2021 Demons feel to them. Just feels like it's finally their year after suffering through a long premiership drought. This Saints list played finals once in 2020 before missing in 2021 and 2022 similar to the Demons playing finals once in 2018 before missing in 2019 and 2020.

Port would be spewing about not asking Ross Lyon the question last year as you can just imagine the things Ross could do with Port's list. With Port's home ground advantage and 13 home games this year, they would have been close to a top 2 lock and a good shot at making their first grand final since 2007. Instead they backed Hinkley and didn't even ask Ross the question but that's a topic for another thread.

Do you agree that St Kilda are the real deal and a very good shot at winning the premiership this year? Or will teams work out how to counter their game plan over the course of the year and bring the Saints back to Earth?

 

[My Tilly]

Compare the amount of top end talent 09 with today's. It's significant.
Even the ruck combo of Gardiner/King would be too much.

Riewoldt would cut loose midway through the second half.
They were a champion team who very nearly defeated both Geelong & Collingwood in consecutive grand finals.

 

[austinnn]

I think 2023 Saints is very much a work in progress.

Owens played 10 games before Rd 1 this year, Phillipou and Caminiti are draftees. Wanganeen Milera, Byrnes, Windhager, Bytel are similiarly inexperienced, plus Stocker and Cordy just joined from other teams. Even players like Gresham and Clark haven't had a heap of game time in the previous 2 years. And of course all of the players are working with a brand new set of coaches and game plan (apart from the defenders who are working with the same line coach as last year). Last year, the players were lost under a losing game plan and mixed messaging from the coaches. Long left, Clark was happy to be traded, the coaches were all (but one) sacked and integrity was deeply and rightly in question.

In comparison, most of the 2009 Saints had been working together for 2 years with years of individual experience, they had made finals the year before and it was a realisation of the work that started in 2007.

I'm getting more of a 2010 Collingwood feeling from the Saints this year, and I think if they did make it to a Grand Final against more experienced finals opposition, that experience might be telling. But I'm loving the ride so far!

 

[My Tilly]

I'm getting more of a 2010 Collingwood feeling from the Saints this year,

Collingwood were averaging 109 points per game after six rounds.

 

[Danw0w]

There's something about these Sainters..

I'd want them to win the flag if Richmond don't turn things around

 

[Murraj1966]

Very interested to see the difference Max King

12

Max King

Age

23

Ht

202cm

Wt

100kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

3star

G

1.4

5star

D

7.3

2star

K

4.7

2star

HB

2.6

2star

M

2.7

3star

T

0.7

1star

G

1.4

5star

D

8.0

2star

K

5.2

2star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.8

3star

T

0.6

3star

G

1.4

5star

makes for us but early days so far, gotta keep the lid on after last year

 

[austinnn]

Collingwood were averaging 109 points per game after six rounds.

I'm not really thinking about game style, more experience profile.

Collingwood came into the (first) grand final in 2010 as noobs, whereas the Saints had been in finals much of the previous 6 or 7 years, and played in the most recent grand final previously. The word from all the media that week was that despite the talent of the young Magpies, the wily Saints would beat them with their gamesmanship and experience... and so it nearly proved.

Of course the following week, all that experience advantage was evened up and the Pies kicked the Saints arse. Not a happy memory.

 

[aussierulesrules]

This reminds me more of 2004 (when we won our first 10, then went on to lose the prelim by a goal), when we had all the young ones in the team (Riewoldt, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard, X Clark, Kosi, Maguire, etc) but weren’t experienced enough to go all the way.

This time around it’s King (when he’s back), Owens, Phillipou, Wangmil, Windhager, Caminiti and Byrnes.

Thankfully there’s no-one in the team who’s 30yo yet I don’t think, so this group could be together for a couple of years, and we’ll presumably have a heap of cap space to go shopping with in the offseason.

 

[austinnn]

One key difference this year compared to 2009 is that so far in 2023 there doesn't seem to be any stand out strong teams.

If you look at the top 6-8, most of their wins have been against either underperformers like Bulldogs, Tigers and Freo, strong teams who were out of form at that particular time like Geelong and Brisbane, or weaker teams like North, Eagles etc. It's hard to find a team that has beaten the best - maybe because right now there is no "best".

But it's a long season and I'm sure we'll have a better idea of what the finals will be in a month or two. I think Geelong, Collingwood and Melbourne are the only teams certain to retain their finals spots, Port and Brisbane are yet to fully convince but can see them scraping in, Sydney are hard to place but them or the Tigers might make it in.

St Kilda should be somewhere there among that lot. The finals should be a lot of fun this year!

 

[mad-saint-guy]

One key difference this year compared to 2009 is that so far in 2023 there doesn't seem to be any stand out strong teams.

Good point here. In 2009 you had two of the best teams of the modern era going at it. There are a few at the front of the pack in 2023 but it feels like it will be a year where any finalist with a clean bill of health and some luck could win the flag ala 2016.

 

[Mr Meow]

One key difference this year compared to 2009 is that so far in 2023 there doesn't seem to be any stand out strong teams.

If you look at the top 6-8, most of their wins have been against either underperformers like Bulldogs, Tigers and Freo, strong teams who were out of form at that particular time like Geelong and Brisbane, or weaker teams like North, Eagles etc. It's hard to find a team that has beaten the best - maybe because right now there is no "best".

But it's a long season and I'm sure we'll have a better idea of what the finals will be in a month or two. I think Geelong, Collingwood and Melbourne are the only teams certain to retain their finals spots, Port and Brisbane are yet to fully convince but can see them scraping in, Sydney are hard to place but them or the Tigers might make it in.

St Kilda should be somewhere there among that lot. The finals should be a lot of fun this year!

Spot on. It's an even top 10 teams in the competition the past 7 or 8 years really with one side standing up when it counts. Even if you finish 5th-8th you are a red hot chance, especially with the finals bye. Throw St Kilda playing this football into last year's comp and they'd be competitive with all finalists minus Geelong. Likewise the season before but with Melbourne, or Richmond during their flag years before that.

Port or Brisbane really should've landed a flag, the small caveat being that Richmond were stronger come finals and Melbourne had one exceptional year (that again, like Richmond, truly stood out in finals more than H&A). I'd say there's as many as 7 or 8 contenders so far. I'd have St Kilda in the top 5 but they need to last the distance. They'll play finals and possibly even sneak top 4 rather than fade away like last season though I reckon.

 

[geelong_crazy26]

St kilda 09 easily the most talented side to never win a premiership. Would beat most grand final winning sides other seasons.

 

[Munga]

St kilda 09 easily the most talented side to never win a premiership. Would beat most grand final winning sides other seasons.

Many say that, including Saints fans. But I think the 2004/05 side was the most talented. Absolute star studded side, although young. The two best teams of 04 played each other in the Prelim, the young Saints away to Port Adelaide. If Gehrig hadn't kicked his 100th goal that match, Port probably wouldn't have caught them in the end.

05 was similar, but injuries hit hard late in the season, as did Barry Hall who was allowed to belt our players off the ball and not get suspended for it.

09/10 not as much talent (although still packed with guns), but well drilled. Rumour was we were up against a couple of PED clubs, nothing came of it though.

 

[Freomaniac]

This reminds me more of 2004 (when we won our first 10, then went on to lose the prelim by a goal), when we had all the young ones in the team (Riewoldt, Ball, Dal Santo, Goddard, X Clark, Kosi, Maguire, etc) but weren’t experienced enough to go all the way.

This time around it’s King (when he’s back), Owens, Phillipou, Wangmil, Windhager, Caminiti and Byrnes.

Thankfully there’s no-one in the team who’s 30yo yet I don’t think, so this group could be together for a couple of years, and we’ll presumably have a heap of cap space to go shopping with in the offseason.

You also forgot Luke Penny did his knee.

Sad as he retired as a 24-26 year old.

Saints wanted him to take the year off and stay at the club too.

 

[demondavey]

Many say that, including Saints fans. But I think the 2004/05 side was the most talented. Absolute star studded side, although young. The two best teams of 04 played each other in the Prelim, the young Saints away to Port Adelaide. If Gehrig hadn't kicked his 100th goal that match, Port probably wouldn't have caught them in the end.

05 was similar, but injuries hit hard late in the season, as did Barry Hall who was allowed to belt our players off the ball and not get suspended for it.

09/10 not as much talent (although still packed with guns), but well drilled. Rumour was we were up against a couple of PED clubs, nothing came of it though.

Brisbane decimated St Kilda in the QF that year. The saints were not the best outfit in 04 alongside Port.

 

[Rotayjay]

I'm on record slamming Ross Lyon as too defensive to win a premiership. Now I need to admit that Lyon is an excellent coach who can get the absolute best out of a list as long as it's not a rebuilding one. His system and methods work and he can produce top-4 finishes very reliably. Who else can just walk into a club and get the team into the top 4 within a year or two?

When it comes to the grand final losses, two of them were by very small margins and realistically it starts coming down to luck at that point - bounces of the ball and so on. He could easily be a multiple premiership coach by now.

The 2023 Saints don't seem to have any absolute stars or eye-catching players for the neutral like a Martin or Hawkins. But maybe this is their year to shine. The flag is there for the taking. It's early days, but we don't have a team like Geelong 2007-11, Collingwood 2010-11 or Hawthorn 2012-15 dominating. No one has that air of invincibility.

 

[My Tilly]

Many say that, including Saints fans. But I think the 2004/05 side was the most talented. Absolute star studded side, although young. The two best teams of 04 played each other in the Prelim, the young Saints away to Port Adelaide. If Gehrig hadn't kicked his 100th goal that match, Port probably wouldn't have caught them in the end.

05 was similar, but injuries hit hard late in the season, as did Barry Hall who was allowed to belt our players off the ball and not get suspended for it.

09/10 not as much talent (although still packed with guns), but well drilled. Rumour was we were up against a couple of PED clubs, nothing came of it though.

Jesus mate!
Even your supporters don't know their own teams

09 side sh*ts on 04.
Not only did they nearly knock off an all time great team, they backed it up the following year.

 

[Freomaniac]

I'm on record slamming Ross Lyon as too defensive to win a premiership. Now I need to admit that Lyon is an excellent coach who can get the absolute best out of a list as long as it's not a rebuilding one. His system and methods work and he can produce top-4 finishes very reliably. Who else can just walk into a club and get the team into the top 4 within a year or two?

When it comes to the grand final losses, two of them were by very small margins and realistically it starts coming down to luck at that point - bounces of the ball and so on. He could easily be a multiple premiership coach by now.

The 2023 Saints don't seem to have any absolute stars or eye-catching players for the neutral like a Martin or Hawkins. But maybe this is their year to shine. The flag is there for the taking. It's early days, but we don't have a team like Geelong 2007-11, Collingwood 2010-11 or Hawthorn 2012-15 dominating. No one has that air of invincibility.

The great myth was Ross Lyon is a horrific coach because he never won a flag.

The other story is that he is too defensive. Half right. It depends on the talent up forward he has got .

We can talk about saints 2009 and 2010 grand finals. Saints lost in 2009 because they Kicked 9.14.68 to cats 12.8.80.

Then you had the draw in 2010 and the thrashing the next week.

Then comes the 2013 grand final he put Freo in. Guys like Matt De Boer, Nick Suban, Clancee Pearce and Tendai Mzungu are not blokes that win Brownlow medals or all Australian honours.

Dockers lost 8.14.68 to Hawthorn 11.11.77.

As a dockers fan, I will always savour that 2012-15 finals period.

Outside of that, dockers have never made back to back finals or made finals for 2 years in a row before or since.



That says a lot.

 

[WillHayward]

Might sound odd but it seems like King's injury has been a blessing in disguise

Uncovered Caminiti and also forced a change in structure and ball movement.

Risk with the Saints was just kicking to King all the time who was being double teamed

Now they don't need to focus on King and the onus is on King to fit into the system rather than the system revolving around him.

 

[projectv]

As others have said, this feels more like the 04/05 team than it does the 09/10 team. But it's still early and a bit disrespectful to those sides to compare this team to either of them just yet.

Might sound odd but it seems like King's injury has been a blessing in disguise

Uncovered Caminiti and also forced a change in structure and ball movement.

Risk with the Saints was just kicking to King all the time who was being double teamed

Now they don't need to focus on King and the onus is on King to fit into the system rather than the system revolving around him.

We'll never know for sure but I'm inclined to agree with you on this.

If King never hurt his shoulder, we probably wouldn't have even drafted Caminiti.

Our lack of an established KPF for the first 6 weeks of the season has forced us to play differently to last season. Our typical plan of kick it to Max when he's being double/triple teamed is no longer an option. As a result all of our forwards (Butler and Higgins in particular) have had to lead and do more setup play, instead of just seagull behind Max King and wait for him to crash a pack.

 

[Murraj1966]

Jesus mate!
Even your supporters don't know their own teams

09 side sh*ts on 04.
Not only did they nearly knock off an all time great team, they backed it up the following year.

Depends on what you mean by "team" I suppose.

2009-10 played a much better brand absolutely and got much further but the line for line talent was immense in 2004-05 and outstripped 2009-10 easily. If Ross had the 04 list at his disposal he'd have a couple of cups already.

 

[projectv]

Depends on what you mean by "team" I suppose.

2009-10 played a much better brand absolutely and got much further but the line for line talent was immense in 2004-05 and outstripped 2009-10 easily. If Ross had the 04 list at his disposal he'd have a couple of cups already.

Could you imagine if our 09/10 side had Fraser Gehrig at his peak????? Wowee that would have been something.

 

[Murraj1966]

Could you imagine if our 09/10 side had Fraser Gehrig at his peak????? Wowee that would have been something.

It goes way deper than just the G-Train

Prime Hamill
Luke Penny instead of Zac Dawson
Harvey with plenty left in the tank
Pre-Injury Ruined Ball
Pre-Leg Break Goose Maguire
Stephen Powell (Harvey called him the toughest player he ever played with in his book)

The only major upgrade is Michael Gardiner over Trent Knobel but GT was just a bog average coach with a gifted list whereas Ross would've gotten so much more out of them.

 

[My Tilly]

If Ross had the 04 list at his disposal he'd have a couple of cups already.

No you wouldn't.
Sydney and West Coast were brilliant when this 'supposedly' Super Saints team were doing their thing.

 

[aussierulesrules]

It goes way deper than just the G-Train

Prime Hamill
Luke Penny instead of Zac Dawson
Harvey with plenty left in the tank
Pre-Injury Ruined Ball
Pre-Leg Break Goose Maguire
Stephen Powell (Harvey called him the toughest player he ever played with in his book)

The only major upgrade is Michael Gardiner over Trent Knobel but GT was just a bog average coach with a gifted list whereas Ross would've gotten so much more out of them.

Yeah the talent on our list in 2004/2005 was ridiculous. Then a whole lot of the super-talented young ones had their careers completely derailed by injury (Ball, Kosi, X Clark, Maguire, Penny).