Strategy Stagnant Ball Movement

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Mateyman

Mateyman

Brownlow Medallist
10k Posts Collingwood Board Goal Kicking Tip Comp
Jun 16, 2012
12,249
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AFL Club
Collingwood
Have been sitting on the top level at the G for most games this year and it really gives you an insight into the way the game is flowing. What I find extraordinary is the way that when we have the ball from a mark, kick in or free kick anywhere in the back half of the ground there is absolutely no movement. Everybody just stands there and then we either try to do a switch which doesn't work or we just kick long to where we are outnumbered at the contest. Even if they have no idea what they are doing at least MOVE around! If you run around, your opponent has to run after you so you're not losing anything. I don't really understand why this is. Our kick ins are terrible because of this. What are everyone else's thoughts?
 
Problem outside of Trelor,Sinclair and Varcoe. We have no real Run and Carry Players with Good Speed.

So that might have something to do with it
 

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Mateyman said:
Have been sitting on the top level at the G for most games this year and it really gives you an insight into the way the game is flowing. What I find extraordinary is the way that when we have the ball from a mark, kick in or free kick anywhere in the back half of the ground there is absolutely no movement. Everybody just stands there and then we either try to do a switch which doesn't work or we just kick long to where we are outnumbered at the contest. Even if they have no idea what they are doing at least MOVE around! If you run around, your opponent has to run after you so you're not losing anything. I don't really understand why this is. Our kick ins are terrible because of this. What are everyone else's thoughts?
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Matey we are so slow at the moment it's a huge worry. The players aren't running. I've been youtubing old Collingwood matches and it's depressing how bad this team is playing. Is it laziness I'm unsure but guys like Blair would kick the ball and run forward demanding to receive it when they first came in to the team. Something is seriously wrong at the moment.
 
TradeDraft said:
True.

So is it Fitness or lack of want?
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It's like they are trying to save energy out they by jogging around instead of sprinting. Reminds me of the way we were smashed by Geelong in the round 24 game they were told not to run too far before the next weeks finals game.

Maybe the interchange cap has got them into the wrong mindset?
 
TradeDraft said:
Problem outside of Trelor,Sinclair and Varcoe. We have no real Run and Carry Players with Good Speed.

So that might have something to do with it
Click to expand...

Almost any player can be a run and carry player unless they are complete inside mids ie. Luke Ball dont sell us short we have more run and carry players then that Sidebottom, Williams(injured), Crisp can all be good ball carrying players they are just under performing with no confidence to run. Interesting stat Hawthorn had 8 players in the top 50 for the league for bounces last year with majority of those 8 being back flankers Collingwood had 2 in that top 50 williams and Elliott. 2010 we had 8 players in the top 50 with Shaw and O'Brien 1 and 2.
 
THATSGOLD said:
..............Maybe the interchange cap has got them into the wrong mindset?
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That had just occurred to me when I read this!
IF they are under instructions to save energy for the last half they are clearly overdoing it.
IF you get 4 goals behind in the first you'd better change tack and start burning up energy or it won't matter how fresh you are in the last coz you'll be 8 to 12 goals behind by then.
Anyway we haven't been running any fresher than oppo in the last q as far as I can see.
WE sometimes complain about the team playing schoolboy football but in this case maybe they need to get back to some schoolboy football! That means making muitiple continuous leads ahead of the ball when we have possession. they have to chase us so they should be using as much energy.
Brainflash maybe the IC cap is also the motivation behind the new zoning - instead of chasing the opposotion's leads one-on-one, set up a zone so they will be intercepted wherever they lead, and thus save energy. But obviously so far it is not working.
IF this is what is going on, they should have a plan B when trying these new systems for when they start getting badly outscored, which seems to be what did happen in the Melb game in which case that's hopeful.
 
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Mateyman said:
Have been sitting on the top level at the G for most games this year and it really gives you an insight into the way the game is flowing. What I find extraordinary is the way that when we have the ball from a mark, kick in or free kick anywhere in the back half of the ground there is absolutely no movement. Everybody just stands there and then we either try to do a switch which doesn't work or we just kick long to where we are outnumbered at the contest. Even if they have no idea what they are doing at least MOVE around! If you run around, your opponent has to run after you so you're not losing anything. I don't really understand why this is. Our kick ins are terrible because of this. What are everyone else's thoughts?
Click to expand...
This is one of the major factors which prompted me to post elsewhere that I believe the biggest issue we are facing right now is belief or confidence. I have seen this symptom many times in my life and I have seen it in each of our matches this year. The issue seems to be brought about by a fear of failure. When players have belief, they will see moments like a kick out from full back as an opportunity to succeed. In other words, they believe that if they present hard at the ball, they can do something which adds to the team and which will bolster their own standing. When players lack confidence or do not have belief, they see such moments as an opportunity to fail and hence they subconsciously do not want the ball and therefore do not present. The task facing our coaches is to turn this malaise around and historically that can be very difficult. The coming weeks will tell the story of our season I think.
 
Had the same view after the match and like you I sit on the 4th level. It's a different issue to a lack of run and carry or pace.
  • Nobody leads when we get the ball, they just stand and wait.
  • The kicker takes too long moving behind the mark and goes miles back
  • It happens all over the ground, but is especially prevalent on kick ins and inside forward 50
  • Sometimes we kick to the short contest instead of the long contest

Even when there's a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 we're not leading, we simply stand still and wait. The kicker doesn't go to this small pack, they go back behind the mark slowly and wait. No leads come and more players get back increasing the size of the pack. Still no leads come. The kicker has no choice but to place the footy on the heads of our players in a pack, amazingly sometimes they take the short contested option instead of a longer one and bomb the footy there.

Leading draws an opponent away from the contest and also creates space behind for another player to move into. This is especially true when there's only a small group of players, where the game or our forward 50 would be opened right up. We're not doing it and it's no wonder our goal kicking, kick ins and uncontested footy are down.

If it's a planned thing then the kicker needs to just kick the footy to the furthest contest on the first insistence, delaying only allows the opposition to get more numbers back and increase congestion. Personally I'd go back to leading up at the footy though.
 
1892 said:
Had the same view after the match and like you I sit on the 4th level. It's a different issue to a lack of run and carry or pace.
  • Nobody leads when we get the ball, they just stand and wait.
  • The kicker takes too long moving behind the mark and goes miles back
  • It happens all over the ground, but is especially prevalent on kick ins and inside forward 50
  • Sometimes we kick to the short contest instead of the long contest

Even when there's a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 we're not leading, we simply stand still and wait. The kicker doesn't go to this small pack, they go back behind the mark slowly and wait. No leads come and more players get back increasing the size of the pack. Still no leads come. The kicker has no choice but to place the footy on the heads of our players in a pack, amazingly sometimes they take the short contested option instead of a longer one and bomb the footy there.

Leading draws an opponent away from the contest and also creates space behind for another player to move into. This is especially true when there's only a small group of players, where the game or our forward 50 would be opened right up. We're not doing it and it's no wonder our goal kicking, kick ins and uncontested footy are down.

If it's a planned thing then the kicker needs to just kick the footy to the furthest contest on the first insistence, delaying only allows the opposition to get more numbers back and increase congestion. Personally I'd go back to leading up at the footy though.
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Totally agree with all of this but it goes even further than that. The players are not taking the game on. I found myself screaming at the players (on TV) on the weekend to take it on. Play on when the opportunity is there. Don't just go back and wait for the stagnation, force players up the field to make position. It all just reeks of fear of failure to me.
 

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Our rate of playing on from a mark would have to be amongst the lowest in the league. I really get the sense the players don't know where they're meant to be at any given time. We need more on-field leadership.
 
The frustrating part is that during the NAB Challenge it appeared the players had been instructed to play on quickly with smooth transition (not missing basic kicks) and then putting the ball to the dangerous part of the forward 50 instead of chipping to leads in the deep pockets.

Looking at us now it is poles apart. We are moving the ball like Richmond... get the ball, slow it down, look for a sideways handball, look for a backward kick, wait a few moments for the opposition to get in position and then kick the ball directly to them. The time we looked the most impressive with our ball movement was when we had no choice but to move it quickly in the dying minutes of the Richmond game.

Based on the fact that we played completely differently during preseason I can only HOPE that this is confidence related. Maybe the message for this weekend would be to throw caution to the wind, play on, move the ball quickly. Yes we need to be defensive minded but when we have the ball we need to hit the attack switch
 
1892 said:
Had the same view after the match and like you I sit on the 4th level. It's a different issue to a lack of run and carry or pace.
  • Nobody leads when we get the ball, they just stand and wait.
  • The kicker takes too long moving behind the mark and goes miles back
  • It happens all over the ground, but is especially prevalent on kick ins and inside forward 50
  • Sometimes we kick to the short contest instead of the long contest

Even when there's a 2 on 2 or 3 on 3 we're not leading, we simply stand still and wait. The kicker doesn't go to this small pack, they go back behind the mark slowly and wait. No leads come and more players get back increasing the size of the pack. Still no leads come. The kicker has no choice but to place the footy on the heads of our players in a pack, amazingly sometimes they take the short contested option instead of a longer one and bomb the footy there.

Leading draws an opponent away from the contest and also creates space behind for another player to move into. This is especially true when there's only a small group of players, where the game or our forward 50 would be opened right up. We're not doing it and it's no wonder our goal kicking, kick ins and uncontested footy are down.

If it's a planned thing then the kicker needs to just kick the footy to the furthest contest on the first insistence, delaying only allows the opposition to get more numbers back and increase congestion. Personally I'd go back to leading up at the footy though.
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Spot On! Cloke is the worst offender..... he calls for his team mates to kick it in the air so he can out muscle his opponent but by the time we kick to him he is contending with 4 defenders and our crumbers see the need to compete in the air rather than staying at the fall of the ball hence easy to clear out forward half!
 
It's even noticeable sitting on level 1. How can we expect good disposal efficiency if all 18 players are standing still and flat footed. Players lead not only to receive the ball for themselves, they are creating space in behind for other players to lead into. It's such a rigid system. Furthermore, it's quite boring to watch.
 
The Royal Sampler said:
Our rate of playing on from a mark would have to be amongst the lowest in the league. I really get the sense the players don't know where they're meant to be at any given time. We need more on-field leadership.
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And what's changed from the NAB Cup games? I thought we looked so good in the pre-season and dare I say very doggie like but come into the season proper we look terrible.

The other issue is, you can move around as quickly or as slowly as you like but if you can't hit a target it comes back with interest. But let's fix one problem first.

I'd love to sit down and watch a preseason game again just to see the difference.
 
Well it works both ways; if your players can run and spread, you don't need to be as precise with your kicking. The Saints only needed to get the ball within about 5m of their target playing against us, as there was no defender in range.
 
Mateyman said:
Have been sitting on the top level at the G for most games this year and it really gives you an insight into the way the game is flowing. What I find extraordinary is the way that when we have the ball from a mark, kick in or free kick anywhere in the back half of the ground there is absolutely no movement. Everybody just stands there and then we either try to do a switch which doesn't work or we just kick long to where we are outnumbered at the contest. Even if they have no idea what they are doing at least MOVE around! If you run around, your opponent has to run after you so you're not losing anything. I don't really understand why this is. Our kick ins are terrible because of this. What are everyone else's thoughts?
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. We are completely static. It's obvious from the TV. What isn't so obvious from TV is how our zone is being broken down. Do you have any insights into this?
 
Swan / Williams / Ramsay / Elliott / Broomhead
5 of our run and carry players and better ball users.

for the sake of this post let's say those 5 replaced.
Greenwood / Langdon / Blair / Sinclair / Crisp

so a fair assumption that those 5 have all committed turnovers which have resulted in goals. and if Elliott was playing in their spot he " most likely " wouldn't turn the ball over and hit Moore lace out who kicks a goal.

so right there is a 5 goals against and 5 goals for turnaround.
 
NT.Thunder said:
And what's changed from the NAB Cup games? I thought we looked so good in the pre-season and dare I say very doggie like but come into the season proper we look terrible.

The other issue is, you can move around as quickly or as slowly as you like but if you can't hit a target it comes back with interest. But let's fix one problem first.

I'd love to sit down and watch a preseason game again just to see the difference.
Click to expand...

If you re-watch the first half of the pre-season game against the Dogs, you see our season to date. Whilst we all were hoping that the third quarter blitzes were the true indicator of what was to come, it was the first halves that showed where we are at.
 
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