Movie Star Wars - Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker - Spoilers and Rumors

JackOutback

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When does rotj split them into three?
Luke on the Death Star, Han/Leia on Endor, Lando and the rest attacking the Death Star. I know in advance you'll say Luke, Han and Leia are the core characters and only got split in two, but there were three distinct plot threads taking place and the finale to ROTJ is the best thing about it. I don't have an issue with Rey, Poe and Finn having different plot threads in the middle film of the trilogy. Them coming together at the end works for me and propels the characters towards the final film.
 

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edgie

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Just curious - do you think your perception and enjoyment of it is heavily influenced by tertiary material and not your own critical analysis of it?

I've still only seen it once so I am absolutely mindful that that colours my perceptions, but I'm waiting for IX to come out to give it a fresh revisit.
Did Episode III change your perception of II? Did Jedi effect Empire?


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SM

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Luke on the Death Star, Han/Leia on Endor, Lando and the rest attacking the Death Star. I know in advance you'll say Luke, Han and Leia are the core characters and only got split in two, but there were three distinct plot threads taking place and the finale to ROTJ is the best thing about it. I don't have an issue with Rey, Poe and Finn having different plot threads in the middle film of the trilogy. Them coming together at the end works for me and propels the characters towards the final film.
You are correct that when I talk about the main trio being split up I do indeed mean the main trio.
 

edgie

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Luke on the Death Star, Han/Leia on Endor, Lando and the rest attacking the Death Star. I know in advance you'll say Luke, Han and Leia are the core characters and only got split in two, but there were three distinct plot threads taking place and the finale to ROTJ is the best thing about it. I don't have an issue with Rey, Poe and Finn having different plot threads in the middle film of the trilogy. Them coming together at the end works for me and propels the characters towards the final film.
Rey, Finn, and Poe have never spent significant time together though unlike the holy trinity who were together for most of Star Wars and the opening act of Empire then Jedi.

Anyway, what about the epic four way from Phantom Menace?


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JackOutback

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You are correct that when I talk about the main trio being split up I do indeed mean the main trio.
Well, the fact ROTJ had three distinct storylines but two of the main characters stayed together, whereas TLJ had three distinct storylines involving the three main characters makes all the difference.
 

JackOutback

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Rey, Finn, and Poe have never spent significant time together though unlike the holy trinity who were together for most of Star Wars and the opening act of Empire then Jedi.

Anyway, what about the epic four way from Phantom Menace?


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They are different films; I don't see it as an important criticism.
 

glenferry23

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Wouldn't have heard that from me; the fundamentals were bad, like the acting and the script. With TLJ, the fundamentals are sound, I think most of the objections come from how certain characters were portrayed and the fact that it went against a lot of people's hope and expectations. The themes of TLJ are excellent, the plot choices make sense even if they are unpopular right now. I can see this film getting a revisit from a lot of people, though much will depend on how it works in with Episode IX.
Your last line is very much true I feel, a lot will depend on how cohesive it is with this entire trilogy. As it stands, it’s very jarring (albeit only a 2 film sample size).

Episode 9 (based on the trailer only of course) seems the antithesis of TLJ’s “let the past die” theme. Time will tell.
 

JackOutback

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It does. I'm.. Not sure if you're being serious here or not.
LOL, if you say so.

Rey, Finn, and Poe have never spent significant time together though unlike the holy trinity who were together for most of Star Wars and the opening act of Empire then Jedi.

Anyway, what about the epic four way from Phantom Menace?


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I’m sure there’s a website out there with the minute by minute breakdown but it’s not like Luke, Han and Leia are always in each other’s presence. They don’t all come together until more than halfway through the first film. They are together for the first 20 mins of ESB and then aren’t together for the rest of the film. They don’t come together in ROTJ until halfway through the Jabba attack, split up again, come together briefly on Endor then separate again.

Criticism of the amount of minutes characters spend together seems rather silly. Finn and Rey spend almost no time together in TLJ but the connection is obvious. From the moment Finn wakes up, he’s all about finding Rey. This is after they spent almost all of TFA together. A criticism of the storylines is one thing, clock watching is another.
 

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SM

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LOL, if you say so.


I’m sure there’s a website out there with the minute by minute breakdown but it’s not like Luke, Han and Leia are always in each other’s presence. They don’t all come together until more than halfway through the first film. They are together for the first 20 mins of ESB and then aren’t together for the rest of the film. They don’t come together in ROTJ until halfway through the Jabba attack, split up again, come together briefly on Endor then separate again.

Criticism of the amount of minutes characters spend together seems rather silly. Finn and Rey spend almost no time together in TLJ but the connection is obvious. From the moment Finn wakes up, he’s all about finding Rey. This is after they spent almost all of TFA together. A criticism of the storylines is one thing, clock watching is another.
You're honestly suggesting that having your main characters separate for an entire movie(s) is an intelligent way to build chemistry and empathy with them as a trio? And that a suggestion otherwise is 'LOL' worthy?

Your lack of knowledge and understanding of the basic premise/tenants of these films is showing again, and you're forced into another of your ridiculous corners to defend TLJ.
 

JackOutback

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You're honestly suggesting that having your main characters separate for an entire movie(s) is an intelligent way to build chemistry and empathy with them as a trio? And that a suggestion otherwise is 'LOL' worthy?

Your lack of knowledge and understanding of the basic premise/tenants of these films is showing again, and you're forced into another of your ridiculous corners to defend TLJ.
If you think a basic premise of these films is a required empathy for Finn, Rey and Poe as a trio, then you are the one mistaken. Finn and Rey have a clear relationship that is furthered even though they don’t share much screen time in TLJ, Finn and Poe have a clear friendship that is furthered in TLJ by their willingness to break the rules together. Rey and Poe don’t have a particularly strong relationship and neither do they need one. Plus, TLJ furthered the relationships between Rey and Luke and Rey and Kylo.

Perhaps you would have enjoyed this movie more if you didn’t try to force an OT structure on to it.
 

SM

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If you think a basic premise of these films is a required empathy for Finn, Rey and Poe as a trio, then you are the one mistaken. Finn and Rey have a clear relationship that is furthered even though they don’t share much screen time in TLJ, Finn and Poe have a clear friendship that is furthered in TLJ by their willingness to break the rules together. Rey and Poe don’t have a particularly strong relationship and neither do they need one. Plus, TLJ furthered the relationships between Rey and Luke and Rey and Kylo.

Perhaps you would have enjoyed this movie more if you didn’t try to force an OT structure on to it.
Yikes.
 

SM

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I know.

Have you seen Heat? s**t movie; 170 mins long and Pacino and De Niro are only together for 10 mins. How were they supposed to develop any chemistry or empathy for the characters? :tearsofjoy:
Just.. stop.

The whole point of an ensemble cast is to actually, you know, have them interact. To have your main characters in more than a handful of scenes together - and in fact Rey and Poe are in maybe 2-3 scenes together across 200 minutes of film. Make no mistake, they WERE paraded around as the new Big Three, and to claim that it's me putting a lense on these films is naive and downright facetious. Even the prequels focussed on having their ensemble interact. There's a reason Padme comes with Qui-Gon to meet Anakin (and hell, this movie cocked up Obi-Wan being left on the ship). There's a reason Obi-Wan, Padme and Anakin are all in the pit on Geonosis. There's a reason Obi-Wan follows Padme to Mustafar.

TLJ not only doubled down on not having the three share any significant screen time, it trebled down by introducing Rose as some alternate Lando - except for the fact she only significantly interacted with Finn! Again diluting the cast and essentially fragmenting the characters into pairs with alternate characters.

Your weak attempt at claiming that ROTJ supports TLJ's dynamic which you now seem to have subtly and rapidly backed away from to instead say "Yeah well, the Sequels aren't the OT man!" is yet another amusing gaffe in your misinterpretation of the narrative structure of these films.
 

JackOutback

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Just.. stop.

The whole point of an ensemble cast is to actually, you know, have them interact. To have your main characters in more than a handful of scenes together - and in fact Rey and Poe are in maybe 2-3 scenes together across 200 minutes of film. Make no mistake, they WERE paraded around as the new Big Three, and to claim that it's me putting a lense on these films is naive and downright facetious. Even the prequels focussed on having their ensemble interact. There's a reason Padme comes with Qui-Gon to meet Anakin (and hell, this movie cocked up Obi-Wan being left on the ship). There's a reason Obi-Wan, Padme and Anakin are all in the pit on Geonosis. There's a reason Obi-Wan follows Padme to Mustafar.

TLJ not only doubled down on not having the three share any significant screen time, it trebled down by introducing Rose as some alternate Lando - except for the fact she only significantly interacted with Finn! Again diluting the cast and essentially fragmenting the characters into pairs with alternate characters.

Your weak attempt at claiming that ROTJ supports TLJ's dynamic which you now seem to have subtly and rapidly backed away from to instead say "Yeah well, the Sequels aren't the OT man!" is yet another amusing gaffe in your misinterpretation of the narrative structure of these films.
I’m not backing away from anything. Your criticism of time on screen was just shallow. If you didn’t like the storylines or the character dynamics, then point that out, not minutes on screen that mean nothing on their own. Films can run multiple storylines, characters can be separated and still have a great dynamic, the ST is not the OT: all these things can be true at the same time and pointing them out is not ‘running away’ from an earlier point.

And attempts to imbue time on screen with significance doesn’t work. So it didn’t matter in Heat but Star Wars is an ‘ensemble film’. Well so is Lord of the Rings, wanna break down how many minutes each major character shares? Or does it only apply to Star Wars or is it just the way you interpreted the marketing?

Believe it or not, your opinions and impressions are not self evident truths, as much as you like to suggest they are.
 

SM

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I’m not backing away from anything. Your criticism of time on screen was just shallow. If you didn’t like the storylines or the character dynamics, then point that out, not minutes on screen that mean nothing on their own. Films can run multiple storylines, characters can be separated and still have a great dynamic, the ST is not the OT: all these things can be true at the same time and pointing them out is not ‘running away’ from an earlier point.

And attempts to imbue time on screen with significance doesn’t work. So it didn’t matter in Heat but Star Wars is an ‘ensemble film’. Well so is Lord of the Rings, wanna break down how many minutes each major character shares? Or does it only apply to Star Wars or is it just the way you interpreted the marketing?

Believe it or not, your opinions and impressions are not self evident truths, as much as you like to suggest they are.
You said ROTJ splits the trio up and when questioned you brought up some BS about Lando (you know, not part of the trio). If that's not backing away what is it?
 

SM

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Splitting up the core trio of characters and having one of the three subplots literally made redundant mean I can't agree.
Not that the success of one implies the success of the other, but ROTJ also split up the core characters into three and it worked great (and ESB split them into two). It's not a factor at all in my opinion of the film, only whether the story worked, which it did for me.
If you weren't directly responding to me then you even more deliberately obfuscated my point. And knowingly did it.
 

JackOutback

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If you weren't directly responding to me then you even more deliberately obfuscated my point. And knowingly did it.
It goes to the shallowness of the argument. Is Luke not a core character in TLJ? Leia? Assigning some extra special significance to three characters and then counting their minutes on a screen together is just nonsense. As I said, critique the film on its merits, not on some silly idea of a ‘holy trinity’.
 

JackOutback

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This is just one of the reasons I liked TLJ; RJ wasn’t interested in what everyone thought a Star Wars movie had to look like, he was interested in making a good movie.
 

edgie

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This is just one of the reasons I liked TLJ; RJ wasn’t interested in what everyone thought a Star Wars movie had to look like, he was interested in making a good movie.
So that's why there's more Millennium Falcon fetish, lots of aliens and creatures (more than TFA) and he basically reuses the score from ROTJ along with many scenes ripped from that and Empire?

Yeah, not interested at all in what a Star Wars should look like.
 
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