Movie Star Wars - Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker - Spoilers and Rumors

JackOutback

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Well, at least now you have your weekend sorted. Get on it.

Can I just say, Rey's lineage has to be the least important plot point that IX has to address. Whatever your thoughts on the VIII, I think RJ was absolutely in the right to shoot it down. The last thing we need is yet another 'Rey is *gasp* X's brother/sister/granddaughter/second cousin twice removed by marriage'. The idea that everyone of significance needs to be connected is silly, it's been done in the OT, it's just a cheap gimmick now and makes no sense when you want to make a whole bunch of series and TV shows, likely with Force sensitive people populating both quite heavily.
 

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edgie

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I've been driving a car for years.

No way could I handle a fighter in space in a combat situation.

Stop being an OT mark. It's silly.

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The car would be equivalent to the landspeeder.

Remember Independence Day when they ask for anybody with piloting experience to step up and they get a crash course in piloting jets? The T-16 is piloting experience.

You wouldn't have any. Put your hand down.



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SM

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Well, at least now you have your weekend sorted. Get on it.

Can I just say, Rey's lineage has to be the least important plot point that IX has to address. Whatever your thoughts on the VIII, I think RJ was absolutely in the right to shoot it down. The last thing we need is yet another 'Rey is *gasp* X's brother/sister/granddaughter/second cousin twice removed by marriage'. The idea that everyone of significance needs to be connected is silly, it's been done in the OT, it's just a cheap gimmick now and makes no sense when you want to make a whole bunch of series and TV shows, likely with Force sensitive people populating both quite heavily.
Thing is, I never cared about her lineage given the way she was portrayed in VII. It was only a big question because it's a SW trope to have people be related. It only got built into a trope in VIII (ironically) where all of a sudden she wanted to find out who they were.

The issue I had was her sudden unexplained power, but that train of thought is apparently something that can't be discussed rationally so meh.
 

JackOutback

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Thing is, I never cared about her lineage given the way she was portrayed in VII. It was only a big question because it's a SW trope to have people be related. It only got built into a trope in VIII (ironically) where all of a sudden she wanted to find out who they were.

The issue I had was her sudden unexplained power, but that train of thought is apparently something that can't be discussed rationally so meh.
I thought they did address it somewhat, in that the Force is like a wave that ebbs and flows. With Luke removing himself from the Force, Kylo increasing his power, Rey is the 'awakening' of the Force, an attempt to bring some balance. The whole answer shouldn't be in VIII though, it's for IX.
 

Simon_Nesbit

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I liked a theory I read earlier - when the Jedi allowed "the will of the force" to determine what happened, when they were just "agents" of the force - there was no need for the "dark side" to rise for balance.

It was only once the Jedi hubris came to the fore, once they started manipulating the force to their will, that 'the chosen one' was created. Then, having successfully destroyed the jedi, his final act was to destroy the evil that was now out-of-balance.

Luke, as uber-powerful as he was, was an observer of the force - he knew that by bending it to his will, he would only create a counter-balancing dark force user. By closing himself off, he removed/reduced the force abilities of all force users - perhaps this is why Kylo is so poor.

This led me to the following retro-fitted theory:

The "awakening" is not Rey, rather a dark side user from uncharted territory - Luke's sacrifice on Salt-planet was not just to aid the rebelli...resistance escape, but to move his consciousness to an elevated plane where he can influence the cosmic force to counter this new rising evil.

It's why Rey has developed without limit nor reason - with Luke shut off from the force, she has been chosen to embody the force. Why she can match/defeat Kylo (she has god mode enabled), and why Luke believes he had to die (his very existence diluting the force power in Rey).

And now for the 'amazing' (cliche) twist ending....Power corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

Rey will be seemingly defeated by this new evil, Kylo defends her at the last minute and combined with Astral Luke they will defeat/destroy the ultimate enemy. Luke's journey now complete, he has his heartfelt goodbye, fading (ala Yoda) with Rey and Kylo facing him, only for the final shot of the film to be from his point of view, Kylo with Rey offset behind, fading to darkness. As the screen goes dark, the sound of a lightsaber igniting, then thrust towards the camera - highlighting Kylo's face as it punctures through his chest from behind.....The Emperor cackles.
 

Simon_Nesbit

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Was he really though?
Actually, no. Not in my head-canon - he was the last, maybe talented but without teaching or direction. More importantly without challenge or peer to develop his skills. Similarly to Kylo, who's technique is that of a new-born calf, no balance or control, little skill or guise. Kylo has learned 'tricks' of the force - some incredible (stopping laser bolt), but not the beliefs or understanding of the religion behind. He's an apprentice magician.

Luke was Graeme Hick to Obi-Wan's Bradman. Kylo is the fat 40yo with a dickie back playing Sunday league.
 

mike123

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Actually, no. Not in my head-canon - he was the last, maybe talented but without teaching or direction. More importantly without challenge or peer to develop his skills. Similarly to Kylo, who's technique is that of a new-born calf, no balance or control, little skill or guise. Kylo has learned 'tricks' of the force - some incredible (stopping laser bolt), but not the beliefs or understanding of the religion behind. He's an apprentice magician.

Luke was Graeme Hick to Obi-Wan's Bradman. Kylo is the fat 40yo with a dickie back playing Sunday league.
The thing is Kylo did have competition and killed them and had teachers and should still be practicing with the students that followed him. It’s mind boggling how bad he is.
 

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SM

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I thought they did address it somewhat, in that the Force is like a wave that ebbs and flows. With Luke removing himself from the Force, Kylo increasing his power, Rey is the 'awakening' of the Force, an attempt to bring some balance. The whole answer shouldn't be in VIII though, it's for IX.
Eh, I think the idea of having the Force waging a war through human proxies, with it conjuring people strong in the Force to counter strong evil or good people is a little facile and dumb, and if that's the answer then... ok.
 

SM

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The issue with the notion of the Force just creating people and 'downloading' the Force into their mind (AKA Rey learning how to use the Force and be a Jedi in a literal week) however you spin it just jars with the existing canon on so many levels.

Theory One - Well it explains Anakin as the Chosen One! He was a similar entity created to cut down the Jedi as they became too hubristic!

The issue with this theory is the fact that the world Anakin was born into was not one in which a Force creation was required. Ten years prior to The Phantom Menace, the Galaxy was at relative peace, and had been for nearly 1,000 years since Bane and the other Sith (all of which is still canon). The Jedi were becoming increasingly caught up in the turmoil and corruption of the Senate, but to suggest that that was a trigger for the Force deciding to wipe them out is rather ridiculous when you consider all the other points in time that the Jedi Order would hypothetically have become bogged down in the very same machinations and yet wasn't wiped out (For over a thousand generations.. etc)

The second issue with this theory is that there were already Sith in existence. Sidious, Maul, Plagueis, all around that time period, depending on your point of view/final canonical placements of everything. So we have arguably the most powerful Sith in a thousand years in Sidious, whose impact was felt on the Galaxy for several decades, and orchestrated the collapse of the Jedi order.. but it was Anakin who the Force had created to wipe them out? The Force didn't sit there and think "Well there's some dude on Naboo who looks like he might do as good a job of things as we would.."? To suggest Anakin was integral in wiping out the Order is very much underplaying what Sidious did.

The third issue with this theory is the nature of their births. Potentially taking things too literally here, but Rey has parents. She's not of a virgin birth, as Anakin was. Ergo, she wasn't created by the Forc.e

Theory Two - Well, it can be used to explain why Rey was so OP in TFA and TLJ. She didn't need training, the Force made her!

If this is the route we want to go down with this theory, then why did it need to 'awaken' in her? What triggered this awakening? Her confrontation with Kylo in the forest? Why was Rey able to arguably surpass Kylo's abilities if she's essentially just 'downloading' his knowledge. Why has no Jedi ever been able to do this before? Did the Force really think the best way to counter the rising darkness in the Galaxy was to create some kid with a never before seen ability to mimic or learn someone's Force powers, and then count on her bumping into Kylo?

And if she's suddenly taken on all of his knowledge, why did she need to go find Luke, or train with him? She has as much knowledge as Kylo, someone who traveled with him for years, supposedly. She could just go off and do her own thing. Keep in mind this is all within a week of scavenging inside a Star Destroyer. And she just acts like it's all just a natural part of her daily life. Lifting rocks is a chore, but she does it to save her friends. It's not as if we'd ever seen any innate Force ability in her in TFA pre-Maz's castle after all.
 

JackOutback

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Not really though, it’s seems like a common thing for people of significance to have offsprings of significance.
Nah, we just make more note of the exceptions. Consider AFL, sure, there's plenty of sons running around, but still only a fraction of the 700 listed players. Significant people have significant offspring in the sense that they have the resources to pass on, skills etc. Still, along comes Buddy Franklin and Chris Judd and Dustin Martin and so on.

Eh, I think the idea of having the Force waging a war through human proxies, with it conjuring people strong in the Force to counter strong evil or good people is a little facile and dumb, and if that's the answer then... ok.
You've taken it to an extreme, but the idea that Force requires balance is well established. I mean, you can blame Lucas for this one, I still loathe Anakin being a creation of the Force. I'd much rather Shmi just be super embarrassed by the dud who got her up the duff.
 

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Nah, we just make more note of the exceptions. Consider AFL, sure, there's plenty of sons running around, but still only a fraction of the 700 listed players. Significant people have significant offspring in the sense that they have the resources to pass on, skills etc. Still, along comes Buddy Franklin and Chris Judd and Dustin Martin and so on.


You've taken it to an extreme, but the idea that Force requires balance is well established. I mean, you can blame Lucas for this one, I still loathe Anakin being a creation of the Force. I'd much rather Shmi just be super embarrassed by the dud who got her up the duff.
No, you can't. I went into detail in my following post about how Anakin's conception and this theory about Rey are not at all comparable.
 

GG.exe

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Thread starter #641
The issue with the notion of the Force just creating people and 'downloading' the Force into their mind (AKA Rey learning how to use the Force and be a Jedi in a literal week) however you spin it just jars with the existing canon on so many levels.

Theory One - Well it explains Anakin as the Chosen One! He was a similar entity created to cut down the Jedi as they became too hubristic!

The issue with this theory is the fact that the world Anakin was born into was not one in which a Force creation was required. Ten years prior to The Phantom Menace, the Galaxy was at relative peace, and had been for nearly 1,000 years since Bane and the other Sith (all of which is still canon). The Jedi were becoming increasingly caught up in the turmoil and corruption of the Senate, but to suggest that that was a trigger for the Force deciding to wipe them out is rather ridiculous when you consider all the other points in time that the Jedi Order would hypothetically have become bogged down in the very same machinations and yet wasn't wiped out (For over a thousand generations.. etc)

The second issue with this theory is that there were already Sith in existence. Sidious, Maul, Plagueis, all around that time period, depending on your point of view/final canonical placements of everything. So we have arguably the most powerful Sith in a thousand years in Sidious, whose impact was felt on the Galaxy for several decades, and orchestrated the collapse of the Jedi order.. but it was Anakin who the Force had created to wipe them out? The Force didn't sit there and think "Well there's some dude on Naboo who looks like he might do as good a job of things as we would.."? To suggest Anakin was integral in wiping out the Order is very much underplaying what Sidious did.

The third issue with this theory is the nature of their births. Potentially taking things too literally here, but Rey has parents. She's not of a virgin birth, as Anakin was. Ergo, she wasn't created by the Forc.e

Theory Two - Well, it can be used to explain why Rey was so OP in TFA and TLJ. She didn't need training, the Force made her!

If this is the route we want to go down with this theory, then why did it need to 'awaken' in her? What triggered this awakening? Her confrontation with Kylo in the forest? Why was Rey able to arguably surpass Kylo's abilities if she's essentially just 'downloading' his knowledge. Why has no Jedi ever been able to do this before? Did the Force really think the best way to counter the rising darkness in the Galaxy was to create some kid with a never before seen ability to mimic or learn someone's Force powers, and then count on her bumping into Kylo?

And if she's suddenly taken on all of his knowledge, why did she need to go find Luke, or train with him? She has as much knowledge as Kylo, someone who traveled with him for years, supposedly. She could just go off and do her own thing. Keep in mind this is all within a week of scavenging inside a Star Destroyer. And she just acts like it's all just a natural part of her daily life. Lifting rocks is a chore, but she does it to save her friends. It's not as if we'd ever seen any innate Force ability in her in TFA pre-Maz's castle after all.
Very well said. This is why 5he whole story treatment for the sequel trilogy is lame. The whole idea behind it. The only thing that was a great idea was that the remnants of the fallen empire went into hiding or were hunted down like post war Nazis. Tho they didn't even make this happen, except in the aftermath books. Instead the movies were a literal attempt to reboot the charm of the OT.
 

mike123

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Nah, we just make more note of the exceptions. Consider AFL, sure, there's plenty of sons running around, but still only a fraction of the 700 listed players. Significant people have significant offspring in the sense that they have the resources to pass on, skills etc. Still, along comes Buddy Franklin and Chris Judd and Dustin Martin and so on.


You've taken it to an extreme, but the idea that Force requires balance is well established. I mean, you can blame Lucas for this one, I still loathe Anakin being a creation of the Force. I'd much rather Shmi just be super embarrassed by the dud who got her up the duff.
There aren’t 700 Jedi around in the ST or at the end of the old OT so the offsprings have much less to compete with.
 

JackOutback

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No, you can't. I went into detail in my following post about how Anakin's conception and this theory about Rey are not at all comparable.
I'm not suggesting she was created by the Force or that it was 'downloaded', simply that she could be more powerful in it and more naturally gifted. Bearing in mind, I don't think she's nearly as overpowered as you like to make out.
 

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I'm not suggesting she was created by the Force or that it was 'downloaded', simply that she could be more powerful in it and more naturally gifted. Bearing in mind, I don't think she's nearly as overpowered as you like to make out.
I thought they did address it somewhat, in that the Force is like a wave that ebbs and flows. With Luke removing himself from the Force, Kylo increasing his power, Rey is the 'awakening' of the Force, an attempt to bring some balance. The whole answer shouldn't be in VIII though, it's for IX.
An attempt to bring balance? :think:

An attempt by who? Or what?
 

JackOutback

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No he doesn't because he's also bestowing sentience on nature. Nature doesn't like or dislike anything, and it doesn't create Super-Dogs to fight man for disrupting nature.
No, I'm not, but thanks for taking on both sides of the debate :rolleyes:

Nature reacts to changes, it ebbs and flows, and it requires a balanced ecosystem. No God required. But sure, it doesn't create Super-Dogs. That's why Star Wars is not a nature documentary ;)
 

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No he doesn't because he's also bestowing sentience on nature. Nature doesn't like or dislike anything, and it doesn't create Super-Dogs to fight man for disrupting nature.
It's analogous tho, makes some sense suddenly when it didn't before.
 
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