Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

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GG.exe

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Thread starter #5,251
The person who should know the character better than anyone is George Lucas, who was responsible for creating and developing the character.

George Lucas had envisaged that the sequel trilogy would have Luke basically as he appears in TLJ, going to a dark place, secluding himself then reluctantly training a new Jedi.

http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/
Yes that's all fine, but the part that isn't is Luke being a glib no hoper and coward. Lucas never wrote THAT as part of that early concept for ep7
 

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Bostonian

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The person who should know the character better than anyone is George Lucas, who was responsible for creating and developing the character.

George Lucas had envisaged that the sequel trilogy would have Luke basically as he appears in TLJ, going to a dark place, secluding himself then reluctantly training a new Jedi.

http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-sequel-trilogy/
Yeah because Hamill would never have had any input into the character.

Johnson pissed all over the Luke Skywalker character. This movie should be the benchmark for how to waste and ruin a legendary film icon.
 

Thrawn

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Firstly, Luke wasn't worried about being in danger or scared out of his mind on the Death Star. He actively went there of his own accord to try to redeem Vader. He snapped because he was taunted about his friends being killed by the Emperor and then snapped again because he was angry that Vader suggested trying to turn Leia. It looks like you've got some form for not understanding Luke's motivations.
Have you even watched ROTJ? Look at the range of emotions he's going through as he hides from his own father in the Death Star throne room. Holy shit, just because he agrees to sacrifice himself or take a big risk, doesn't mean he's not scared.

And yet you call me out for not understanding Luke's motivations? Haha. You are just so hilarious.

We're provided with plenty of context.

Luke has started a Jedi Academy. His best pupil is Han and Leia's son. That pupil is falling to the Dark Side and he hasn't been able to control the situation and save Ben. He's failed his friends and family and the Jedi.
I am talking about the context surrounding his decision. Meaning, what the **** did he do to try and alleviate it? This wasn't explored at all. It makes it look like he just saw visions (that may not even come true, according to Yoda in ESB) and decided to kill him then and there.

In an attempt to better understand Ben he goes to him while he is sleeping to read his thoughts and sees that the darkness within Ben is already too far gone. He's failed the Jedi and failed his family. In that split second he considers killing Ben to solve the problem before stopping himself.
And there you go. Thank you. You vindicated my previous point perfectly. So he reads his dreams or possible future actions whatever you wanna call it, and just gives up on him. No talking to him, or trying to convince him (like he did his father who already committed horrendous acts of evil), etc. This is a huuuge turn around to what he planned to do with Vader, and somehow you're tying to twist it so that they're similar, this is his "character". What tripe.

How much more do you need? It's all there spelled out for you. Would you like it to have been on the opening scroll?
I already told you, so have other people: a few lines of exposition. Instead we got shitty/lazy writing that didn't reflect Luke at all.
 
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GG.exe

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Thread starter #5,254
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcai...-worst-ever-for-a-star-wars-pic/#230c9c0157fa


The box office numbers for the second Friday of Star Wars: The Last Jedi are in and they paint a bleak picture for the Rian Johnson-directed sequel. Down 77 percent from its opening day last Friday, the picture continues to distinguish itself as the worst holding film in the Star Wars franchise's entire nine-film history.

From its opening day gross of $104.7 million, The Last Jedicratered by a full $80 million, taking in $24.6 million a week later, on its second Friday.

The biggest prior Friday-to-Friday decline was that of Rogue One: A Star Wars story, at a comparatively robust 68 percent. The three previous films before that, Episode VII: The Force Awakens, Episode II: Attack of the Clones, and Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, all saw declines in the mid-50's percentage range. Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Episode III: The Phantom Menace, and Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, all saw far more modest declines in the 20-30 percent range, and the first film, Episode IV: A New Hope, actually increased by nearly 80 percent in its second weekend as the franchise exploded into being (hence the negative 79 percent "decline" shown on the chart below. I should note also that I don't have access to daily box numbers for episodes IV and V, so I substituted their full weekend numbers in the chart).

Pacific Bridge data
Friday-to-Friday declines





A few quibbles about the comparisons between films are warranted, as some of the pictures—including The Last Jedi—have Thursday evening preview numbers included in their opening Friday results, making the second Friday a tough comp. And some of the other pictures opened on Wednesdays or Thursdays, so their first Friday-to-second Friday comparisons aren't quite apples-to-apples with The Last Jedi.

But even after adjusting for such differences, The Last Jedistill manages to live up to its title, sitting in last place as the Star Wars picture least capable of holding its audience. Or perhaps more pointedly, in failing to bring moviegoers back for multiple viewings. As Miles Bailey, a formerly fervent fan of the Star Wars films told me, “Disney shouldn’t bank on the hardcore, cosplay, convention crew like myself seeing this film 6, 7, 8, 9 times. Episode 8: The Last Jedi set out to kill everything about episodes 1-7 and succeeded. I’m not excited by Solo or episode 9. Star Wars is done for me.”


With reactions like that, Disney (NYSE:DIS) will need to re-think its strategy for future installments if it hopes to retain a meaningful share of its potential Star Wars audience. As things are going now, The Last Jedi is drifting further away from The Force Awakens' numbers and closer to a Rogue One sized lifetime gross, a result that would be truly catastrophic given the opportunity lost for the new film and its potential impact on the franchise's future prospects.
 

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I think you're being a little disingenuous yourself. Luke didn't briefly think about striking him down because of 'reasons'. He knows the power of the dark side, he saw what it did to his father, he fears it. That instinctive fear of the dark side and the desiree to fight back completed Kylo's turn, completed his own failure and led to his isolation.
I put "reasons" because I treated it with the contempt it deserves. He did it because he was paranoid. At that stage Ben was a kid who didn't commit genocide on a galactic scale.

Yoda said it best himself:
Did you people not watch the OT at all? So basically, Luke's motivation to kill him was based on a maybe. As I said, horrible, horrible writing.
 

JackOutback

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https://www.forbes.com/sites/robcai...-worst-ever-for-a-star-wars-pic/#230c9c0157fa


The box office numbers for the second Friday of Star Wars: The Last Jedi are in and they paint a bleak picture for the Rian Johnson-directed sequel. Down 77 percent from its opening day last Friday, the picture continues to distinguish itself as the worst holding film in the Star Wars franchise's entire nine-film history.

From its opening day gross of $104.7 million, The Last Jedicratered by a full $80 million, taking in $24.6 million a week later, on its second Friday.

The biggest prior Friday-to-Friday decline was that of Rogue One: A Star Wars story, at a comparatively robust 68 percent. The three previous films before that, Episode VII: The Force Awakens, Episode II: Attack of the Clones, and Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, all saw declines in the mid-50's percentage range. Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, Episode III: The Phantom Menace, and Episode VI: Return of the Jedi, all saw far more modest declines in the 20-30 percent range, and the first film, Episode IV: A New Hope, actually increased by nearly 80 percent in its second weekend as the franchise exploded into being (hence the negative 79 percent "decline" shown on the chart below. I should note also that I don't have access to daily box numbers for episodes IV and V, so I substituted their full weekend numbers in the chart).

Pacific Bridge data
Friday-to-Friday declines





A few quibbles about the comparisons between films are warranted, as some of the pictures—including The Last Jedi—have Thursday evening preview numbers included in their opening Friday results, making the second Friday a tough comp. And some of the other pictures opened on Wednesdays or Thursdays, so their first Friday-to-second Friday comparisons aren't quite apples-to-apples with The Last Jedi.

But even after adjusting for such differences, The Last Jedistill manages to live up to its title, sitting in last place as the Star Wars picture least capable of holding its audience. Or perhaps more pointedly, in failing to bring moviegoers back for multiple viewings. As Miles Bailey, a formerly fervent fan of the Star Wars films told me, “Disney shouldn’t bank on the hardcore, cosplay, convention crew like myself seeing this film 6, 7, 8, 9 times. Episode 8: The Last Jedi set out to kill everything about episodes 1-7 and succeeded. I’m not excited by Solo or episode 9. Star Wars is done for me.”


With reactions like that, Disney (NYSE:DIS) will need to re-think its strategy for future installments if it hopes to retain a meaningful share of its potential Star Wars audience. As things are going now, The Last Jedi is drifting further away from The Force Awakens' numbers and closer to a Rogue One sized lifetime gross, a result that would be truly catastrophic given the opportunity lost for the new film and its potential impact on the franchise's future prospects.
I read a similar article but with a lot more context (it's the word of the day). While the drop seems precipitous, it's eight day decline is still less than all the prequels. It will still comfortably pass $1.5b, all second and third Star Wars films have grossed less than the original. The reason for the large Friday to Friday drop is the placement of the holidays. The next eight days will determine its overall success but its tracking ok.
 

JackOutback

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I put "reasons" because I treated it with the contempt it deserves. He did it because he was paranoid. At that stage Ben was a kid who didn't commit genocide on a galactic scale.

Yoda said it best himself:
Did you people not watch the OT at all? So basically, Luke's motivation to kill him was based on a maybe. As I said, horrible, horrible writing.
This sort of arrogance from Star Wars fans makes it hard to be a Star Wars fan. You have your interpretation, it's not the final word. I have a perfectly valid explanation for how his fear of the power of the dark side could generate an instinctive response as shown in the film. You may not like it, it doesn't automatically make it shitty writing.

And I've seen the OT; plenty of times; too many times, probably.
 

Thrawn

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This sort of arrogance from Star Wars fans makes it hard to be a Star Wars fan. You have your interpretation, it's not the final word. I have a perfectly valid explanation for how his fear of the power of the dark side could generate an instinctive response as shown in the film. You may not like it, it doesn't automatically make it shitty writing.

And I've seen the OT; plenty of times; too many times, probably.
It's not arrogance. It's called source material. Your explanation doesn't even make any sense, instinctive response? Rubbish. It flies on the face of said source material that already establishes his character. Wanting to kill your own nephew after reading their dreams, entirely based on a maybe, is farcical. Dark side or no dark side, Luke is not a homicidal maniac who kills their own family members in their sleep based on an off-chance. Mark Hamill was correct when he said that's not Luke Skywalker.

If you're going to bring back a character, either follow true to their damn character by using existing material to get as close to their character as possible or offer at least some sort of exposition to explain the sudden shift of character. Otherwise, it's just lazy and garbage writing. It's not just based on me "not liking" it.
 
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El_Scorcho

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The exposition was there. Luke sensed that Ben had fallen to the dark side and he knew what a threat that was to everyone he loved and everything he had worked so hard to build. There was as much fear there as there was on the Death Star.

He had a split second thought to kill Ben before changing his mind. He didn't plot his death for months on end.

And Luke was right! Ben turned, killed his apprentices and destroyed his new Jedi Academy. He became a key member of the First Order and killed Han in cold blood.

If only Luke had angrily swung his saber at Ben like he did at Vader or the Emperor in ROTJ.
 

El_Scorcho

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Yeah because Hamill would never have had any input into the character.

Johnson pissed all over the Luke Skywalker character. This movie should be the benchmark for how to waste and ruin a legendary film icon.
Leonardo DiCaprio played Romeo. It doesn't mean he understands the character better than Shakespeare.

The OT characters belong to George Lucas. They were his vision and he gave them their personalities. The Luke of TLJ is true to Lucas's vision.
 

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The thing I really loved about TLJ which no one has mentioned....

The sound of the Porgs echoing in the distance of Ahch-To on a daily basis during Rey's time there. Thought that was brilliant atmosphere creation. The call of that bird is very distinctive, and when heard constantly like that as a distant background noise of the island life....just great.
I really lolled at the bits of rock falling down on those creatures' wagon. That was a good bit of slapstick
 

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The exposition was there. Luke sensed that Ben had fallen to the dark side and he knew what a threat that was to everyone he loved and everything he had worked so hard to build. There was as much fear there as there was on the Death Star.

He had a split second thought to kill Ben before changing his mind. He didn't plot his death for months on end.

And Luke was right! Ben turned, killed his apprentices and destroyed his new Jedi Academy. He became a key member of the First Order and killed Han in cold blood.

If only Luke had angrily swung his saber at Ben like he did at Vader or the Emperor in ROTJ.
There wasn't, and that's one of the main problems of this film. There was no exposition to talk it out or anything like that after he read his dreams, it was simply "I'd better kill him". He didn't have to plot it for months, he made the decision to and that's what matters here. And you're using hindsight when we're talking about Luke during the act, it's as if he's completely ignored or forgot what Yoda had taught him. He would have well known at that point in time that the future is never certain and always in motion, I mean ffs, he's a Jedi Master and doesn't know this? There's another out-of-character thing.
 

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The way the purple haired rebellion admiral was behaving, it seemed like she was perhaps a mole for the First Order. When it was revealed that she wasn't you were left thinking, why didn't she simply tell the senior officers of her plans to avoid a whole heap of trouble?
Just a pointless maguffin from a pointless cameo by Dr Ellie Satler
 
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Bostonian

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Leonardo DiCaprio played Romeo. It doesn't mean he understands the character better than Shakespeare.
That's an awful analogy. Like really bad.

The OT characters belong to George Lucas. They were his vision and he gave them their personalities. The Luke of TLJ is true to Lucas's vision.
They belong to Disney now. Disney chose to bring back Luke and totally **** up that character and write utter crap for it.

One of THE most iconic film characters in the history of the world and they came up with that pile of shit storyline for it.
 

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Leonardo DiCaprio played Romeo. It doesn't mean he understands the character better than Shakespeare.
You goblet.

Hamill had the pleasure of being in direct contact with Lucas, as a colleague and a good friend, for decades. Shakespeare has been dead for centuries.
 

Thrawn

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The predominant sentiment and analysis (not just by fans, but by people who work in the industry) is that Luke was written poorly. That's the prevailing opinion. The consensus.
Especially Hamill himself.

But apparently he doesn't know what he's talking about and has little understanding of his character, according to a couple of people here.
 

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The predominant sentiment and analysis (not just by fans, but by people who work in the industry) is that Luke was written poorly. That's the prevailing opinion. The consensus.
This is total bullshit. You're just making shit up. Consensus?
 

El_Scorcho

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There wasn't, and that's one of the main problems of this film. There was no exposition to talk it out or anything like that after he read his dreams, it was simply "I'd better kill him". He didn't have to plot it for months, he made the decision to and that's what matters here. And you're using hindsight when we're talking about Luke during the act, it's as if he's completely ignored or forgot what Yoda had taught him. He would have well known at that point in time that the future is never certain and always in motion, I mean ffs, he's a Jedi Master and doesn't know this? There's another out-of-character thing.
There was though.

Again, it's not even subtext. Luke said he sensed that the darkness had grown far beyond what he thought.

From that we don't need to be told that Luke fears the damage his powerful nephew falling to the dark side could do. We just don't need to be told anything more than we are. We already know.

Spelling it out any more is assuming the audience is stupid and doesn't have any basic comprehension skills.

Luke didn't complete the act. He didn't swing his saber, he activated his saber and then stopped himself.
 

El_Scorcho

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So?

Your first mistake is assuming Lucas was going to turn Luke Skywalker exactly like this over a bunch of really early draft notes. Have you ever seen Han Solo early concepts?
So you can't use "well Mark Hamill didn't agree" as a silver bullet when the Luke we saw matched Lucas's vision when he pitched Ep7 in 2013.
 

GG.exe

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Thread starter #5,273
No one complained about the way Han was written in Episode VII, because it was true to character. JJ wrote Han to be a bit of a failure himself....but his new arc was still true to character....his lines, attitude, personality. He was the same kind of Han as we always knew from 30 years ago. As ep7 unfolded, no one noticed some drastic unbelievable change, because it wasn't there. It was like watching the same old Han, but 30 years older.

However, what Rian did with Luke was stretching his change beyond believability, out of character. That's why people are complaining. Because it's bad writing. A reach. Which millions of people have called BS on. As we watched ep8, we were taken aback, it was stark, cringing....that's not "Luke". It's some other made up character. Like if you created a new character altogether, with a new name, and played by a different actor, like say, Max Von Sydow playing some guy called Lor San Tekka.
 

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From that we don't need to be told that Luke fears the damage his powerful nephew falling to the dark side could do. We just don't need to be told anything more than we are. We already know
He sensed it, yet he couldn't have been certain of it. Otherwise you're telling us he thinks he knew for certain, which means he didn't listen to anything Yoda had said. It basically contradicts completely how Force precog works! Right, he conveniently "forgot" a very important part of his training. See, this is why source material is so important and that you don't ignore it. Ironically, it was one of the reasons why most of the EU was binned - because a lot of authors wouldn't follow previous material, making a mess of contradictions.

Spelling it out any more is assuming the audience is stupid and doesn't have any basic comprehension skills.
No, "spelling it out" would be showing that Luke attempted to try as hard as possible to turn him back, like he did with his father who was already committing atrocities in the first place. That is his character. Instead, he makes an on-the-spot decision that's completely out of character. I'm sick of repeating this to you: if they wanted Luke to do that, exposition was necessary. Something, anything, suggesting he tried as hard as possible then taking a final resort option instead of making the immediate choice of killing a blood relative over a what if. This is precisely why the writing is terrible here.

Luke didn't complete the act. He didn't swing his saber, he activated his saber and then stopped himself.
That's not the point. The fact that he thought about it and decided to do it, even though he didn't finish through, is enough.
 
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