Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

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Matera92

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Luke just needs to force ghost appear next to Kylo and call down Thor's Lightning to end the whole thing. Then the Hulk can smash up the remaining imperial fleet while Elsa creates a pretty ice palace for the remaining resistance members to live happily ever after in.
 

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Thrawn

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Far better than Empire, because the themes it explores are better.

As for Mark Hamill:

Either you are 12, goading people or have shit taste. In what way is it better than Empire? Story? Nope. Character development? Nope? Cohesion? Nope. Empire didn't really have pointless arcs, fit into its own trilogy, had no where near the amount of division, gave it's characters depth and is a timeless classic. Something TLJ isn't and will never be.
 
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If only I could go in a time machine and tell Rian, "Write that." Yeah, it's not perfect and someone out there could probably come up with a better outline, but I like it more than the real thing. I guess that's part of the problem, though; they can't live up to the stories in our heads. I wish I could pitch my IX outline to Bob Iger but you never know, JJ might have something good up his sleeve. I doubt it, though. I still think the new movies are pretty good but none of them come close to the OT in my opinion.
 

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Either you are 12, goading people or have shit taste. In what way is it better than Empire? Story? Nope. Character development? Nope? Cohesion? Nope. Empire didn't really have pointless arcs, fit into its own trilogy, had no where near the amount of division, gave it's characters depth and is a timeless classic. Something TLJ isn't and will never be.
It's only on par with Empire in terms of the intensity of the acting and the way it's filmed, so the scenes are really well designed and the camera work is very cool, super detailed, great set designs. Most of the film does very well, but character development is sketchy at times and characters are under used, don't get enough screen time...

this is what brings it down from 9/10 to a 7/10, story and character arc could have been fine tuned and crafted more to boost it up to Empire level..

As a popcorn SW entertainment experience on autopilot - 9/10

Analytically watching it in context with everything else - 7/10
 

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If only I could go in a time machine and tell Rian, "Write that." Yeah, it's not perfect and someone out there could probably come up with a better outline, but I like it more than the real thing. I guess that's part of the problem, though; they can't live up to the stories in our heads. I wish I could pitch my IX outline to Bob Iger but you never know, JJ might have something good up his sleeve. I doubt it, though. I still think the new movies are pretty good but none of them come close to the OT in my opinion.
I mean, i can only assume that perhaps, he had some restrictions, maybe, but who knows.
 

GG.exe

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A couple of amazing comments I read on the internet....

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(regarding #1 that Poe/Holdo drama was the best chain of command drama ever seen in a SW movie, and #2 that Cloud City sub-plot wasn't as good as the Canto Bight sub-plot)

This is such a bizarre take that I barely know how to respond. What drama? The whole thing was clearly telegraphed from the start that hot headed Mr. Flyboy who clearly had a problem with female authority was screwing everything up. The only reason there was any conflict at all was because the script called for Poe to not be read in on "The Plan" and thus mutiny. Any military leader who wasn't 100% worthless would have recognized this danger 1000 miles away and pulled Poe aside to give him enough info to keep him from flying off the rails. The dude was the hero of the freaking Starkiller battle that just happened what, yesterday? The whole thing was just stupid.

Saying the other stuff in TLJ is equivalent to Cloud City doesn't even deserve a response.

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(regarding my point that the FO shouldn't have been so strong per se anyway, let alone after the destruction of SKB literally minutes after TFA ended)


This is one of those things where I think TLJ comes off stronger as a stand alone film, but weaker as an entry in a trilogy.

The context of ESB and the Death Star's destruction not effecting the Empire that negatively is that the unchallenged and singular galactic superpower (that exists because of a massive false-flag war that militarized the entire Galaxy before the victors transitioned into totalitarianism) can shake off the material damage and pursue their enemy with brute force because they not only have a massive actual economic and military advantage, but also a near-total monopoly on any and all available resources. The Rebels are making do with what seems to almost be a national-scale GDP while facing an enemy with a Galactic-scale GDP, and an abnormally militaristic one at that.

The context of TFA and TLJ, even taking into account the ancillary material produced to try and setup the latter, is very different. The First Order is not, even in the most generous estimation, anywhere near the Empire's Galactic monopoly: even including the idea of decent holdings in the Unknown Regions on top of the Centrist secessionists, we know that the New Republic was large enough to keep the FO from conventionally attacking before SKB was used, and that was after the Centrists (who must be considered a minority party if they lost their catalyst vote to secede) left, and on top of that, we know there are not insignificant systems and planets that weren't even members of the Republic. So, in a practical sense, while the FO can have a strategic advantage in war material and manpower, it's finite and nowhere near as absolute as the Empire's, and even with the Hosnian System gone, there's still got to be, at minimum, equal potential resources not under FO control.

Politically, the context grows even worse for the film. The material behind and in TFA establishes that the Empire was so politically unpopular that, within a year of Endor, they were dead as a political entity in the Galaxy. So even their diehards bowed to prevailing popular winds, or, you know, died. We also know of planets and whole species whom the Empire only managed to subjugate because they were initially members of the Galactic Republic, and so invited the proto-Imperial forces to their planets (like the Wokkies of Kashyyk and, perhaps more importantly, the Mon Calamari, who still managed to smuggle out capital ships under the Empire's nose). So, politically speaking, there are important cultures with a background that will make standing by while a new Empire rises a laughable proposition. There's also the fact the in-story excuse used to justify the Centrists secession should mean that independent systems will be armed with at least adequate planetary security forces; the Centrists broke away because the New Repiblic would not bulk up its main central fleet (the one still big enough to keep the First Order out until SKB fired) and would leave planetary security to the individual systems.

That's not to say you can't work around these issues in IX. You can insist it that the First Order, with an acceptable material advantage, is merely pursuing the Resistance and seeking to destroy them as possible ringleaders for a united foe before launching their strategic maneuvers to seize key points from which to gradually conquer the rest of the Galaxy. The issue with that is, of course, you've only aggravated the view of the First Order as being incompetent and less intimidating than TLJ wants them to be, since they will now have lost very key resources while pursuing what was ultimately an even smaller and weaker enemy than the Rebellion was.
 

GG.exe

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Remember, recent on-going video games are officially part of new canon....

I got Battlefront II for Christmas and we’ve been playing it today, so spoiler alert people. After a great scene of Luke Skywalker acting and sounding like Luke Skywalker, there’s a scene where Leia gives a little speech about hope to your character and explains why hope will help the rebels win the war. She wasn’t talking about hope after the rebels were completely slaughtered. She talked about hope after the rebels won a battle and converted Imperial special forces. It just reminded me how the entire theme of the sagas is that Luke and Leia represent hope for the galaxy, and for some bizarre, inexplicable reason, TLJ felt the need to burn that message into the ground and kill the twins as total and complete failures, while lecturing the audience on how real hope lies in non-Skywalkers purging the Skywalkers rom the galaxy.
 

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I mean, i can only assume that perhaps, he had some restrictions, maybe, but who knows.
It sounds like he didn't in regards to killing off Luke and Snoke. He probably wasn't allowed to kill off Kylo or Rey or decide to have Rey join Kylo, though. If I had to kill off Luke and Snoke in TLJ, then the real Luke freaking Skywalker is showing up at that throne room and killing Snoke, then dying in a blaze of glory on Crait, taking out a chunk of the First Order.
 
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Then in IX you could have Rey, Kylo and Knights of Ren vs. The Resistance, Republic and Mandalorians. Towards the end, Rey stops Kylo from killing Finn and some bad ass Mandalorians beat down the KoR. First Order is defeated. Would've been cool to see Rey be a bad girl for most of IX but oh well.
 

JackOutback

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If only I could go in a time machine and tell Rian, "Write that." Yeah, it's not perfect and someone out there could probably come up with a better outline, but I like it more than the real thing. I guess that's part of the problem, though; they can't live up to the stories in our heads. I wish I could pitch my IX outline to Bob Iger but you never know, JJ might have something good up his sleeve. I doubt it, though. I still think the new movies are pretty good but none of them come close to the OT in my opinion.
This is the crux of the problem; Star Wars is so popular, some people have a sense of ownership. But that's silly. The notmyskywalker hashtag has to be the silliest I've seen because, no, he's not mine or anyone else's other than the creators and writers. Some people react with disappointment, others with absurd internet rage. I went in without any particular story in mind and found myself quite satisfied.
 
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Janus

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Either you are 12, goading people or have shit taste. In what way is it better than Empire? Story? Nope. Character development? Nope? Cohesion? Nope. Empire didn't really have pointless arcs, fit into its own trilogy, had no where near the amount of division, gave it's characters depth and is a timeless classic. Something TLJ isn't and will never be.
These guys will tell you what's what:

 
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This is the crux of the problem; Star Wars is so popular, some people have a sense of ownership. But that's silly. The notmyskywalker hashtag has to be the silliest I've seen because, no, he's not mine or anyone else's other than the creators and writers. Some people react with disappointment, others with absurd internet rage. I went for in without any particular story in mind and found myself quite satisfied.
I agree. That's where my disappointment came from, cause myself and other diehard fans had ideas we liked better than what we got. It wasn't that the movie wasn't good - I think the acting, dialogue, cinematography etc is as good as any Star Wars movie. The things people nitpick about can be applied to the OT.
 

weevil

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Aiight, let's get this shit over and done with.

weevil

In no particular order or structure.

Rey's Jyn's character centres around daddy issues, both with Galen and Saw. Her early movie person appears careless and cynical, content to exist in the Imperial prison she found herself in. Her first instinct is always to fight, even against her announced rescuers. She's cold to the ideals of others and indifferent to their struggles. She goes along with the Rebels in their mission because it seems like she doesn't care enough not to after she is brought before them. Her moral compass does appear to not be completely devoid though, as she is seen risking herself to save an innocent child in the middle of a fire fight, something uncharacteristic at this stage.

Reunited with Saw, there's more cynicism and abandonment issues she takes out on him, who isn't without some paranoia himself, but when she sees her father again it lights a spark in her. She doesn't have much of an identity, growing up in Imperial privilege, then fugitive isolation, then trained as a guerilla warrior, she lacks personal motivation as her childhood and adolescence was taken from her, however the chance to redeem her father, a man she liked to believe was dead, gave her something to fight for, and when she fails to do so after his death, she takes his message on how to destroy the Death Star as her objective, finding what seems like something to fight for on her own terms (but only on deceased dads behalf).

More cynicism is expressed when the Rebel council vote not to follow up on the intel and she questions their legitimacy, her message though becomes more positive and she seems to be channelling the ideals taught to her by her Saw. At the top of the tower her first instinct is to attack Krennic's motionless body after sending the data tape, Cassian pulls her back and she eventually gives in and walks away, like a cleansing of her issues, that all came down to her fathers forced service of him. Strange enough when Scariff is fired on, she is content again with her fate and makes no attempts to escape the blast, despite having not long ago regained her purpose to live. With Cassian on the beach she reflects that they've done some good and their sacrifices, as well as her fathers who she held dear, wouldn't be for nothing, and that the Empire that took so much from her would soon be getting some back.

...

Right so now that load of shit is done can we agree neither Rey nor Jyn is a character devoid of identifiable personality and traits?
Again, I think you are conflating plot and character. Someone being sad because their father died says virtually nothing about a character. Almost every character would be sad in that situation.

I think R1 has lots of plot, but it's characters are weak. On a character level it's just a whole bunch of stuff that happens to people. A bunch of almost random people all decide to do a mission and mission is all that happens.

TLJ has a very thin plot, the good guys run away from the bad guys, and the top force users on each side die. Its focus is on Luke's personal journey and in one sense the action stuff is just kinda the background to this.

I'm not saying every character in TLJ is amazing and I'm not saying you have to like TLJ. TLJ has lots of problems.
I think all three Disney films have significant flaws, but those flaws are mostly very different because the films themselves are very, very different.

If you like basic action flicks with pretty flat characters that’s perfectly fine. Lots of people are into that sort of film and that is okay, TLJ is probably never going to be the film for you.
 

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(again regarding the capabilities of the FO)

That's the problem, the timeline is too condensed. That's what makes this film feel even more contrived.

Not only is the FO having such massive fleets/armies very poorly set up (and there was no hint of it whatsoever in TFA), but the idea that they could swoop in and take over so quickly was laughable imo.

Basically Rian's "bold new vision" was "The Empire vs. The Rebellion all over again." Only not done nearly as well here.
 

edgie

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Again, I think you are conflating plot and character. Someone being sad because their father died says virtually nothing about a character. Almost every character would be sad in that situation.
Where did I say she was sad her dad died?

Sent from mTalk
 

edgie

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I just threw that out as an example, could have said she was happy because she got a cookie.
Yeah, but I didn't say any of that.

Her character changes as plot events occur, so it seemed prudent to mention. Just like Han Solo and Luke Skywalker and everyone else.

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weevil

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Yeah, but I didn't say any of that.

Her character changes as plot events occur, so it seemed prudent to mention. Just like Han Solo and Luke Skywalker and everyone else.

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When people describe Han they say things like he is brash, impulsive, a scoundrel. Not that he is scared when he is put in carbonite.
 
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