Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi. - THREAD PART 1 - *SPOILERS and RUMORS* - Cont. in Part 2

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weevil

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Yeah, but I didn't say any of that.

Her character changes as plot events occur, so it seemed prudent to mention. Just like Han Solo and Luke Skywalker and everyone else.

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Anywho dude, I'm totally done with this I'm sure you are too. Life is too short, lets just move along, move along.
 

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weevil

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There’s some great ideas that are woven between the film and a handful of really good scenes. However they are never fully fleshed out and few and far between.

The other 2/3rds of the film that IMO is average at best, is further amplified by the promise that the film showed.

Again, more power to the people that can look past the flaws and enjoyed the film, but for me; the horrible pacing, poor dialogue and poor writing took me out of the ‘escapist fun’ that these films are meant to provide.

I’ve seen remarks along social media that people criticising those that didn’t like it grouped together with people that hated TFA because it was rehashed. It has nothing to do with that, it was a poorly made film.

The fact it disregarded the film that immediately proceeded it was a direct kick in the nutcracker. It doesn’t need service the previous 6 main saga films, it should at the very least TFA, it didn’t.
It's the thing. If it's more in line with the type of film you are predisposed to liking it makes your more far willing to look past its flaws.

Really, in my book all three new films have been pretty big stuff-ups. I have loved the franchise since I was 8. I know these films will probably never match what were genre defining classics from my childhood. So, I just look past their problems and enjoy them all for what they are. I think having low expectations has saved me a lot of angst.

TLJ is clearly my favourite of the three with TFA next and then R1. But as I've said before I wish someone could make a film with the best bits of all three, because it would be a sensational.
 
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2006_Eagles

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Did she just get home from clubbing before recording that video? Or maybe she's heading out straight after

#titsgetthehits
 
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Lethality

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I didn't think of this until someone pointed it out. It's like the purple hair feminist stereotype.

If you don't like, or even hate The Last Jedi, that's fine, but these people saying they hate it cause it's "SJW wars" and all that shit can **** off. It has to be said.
The SJW stuff is responsible for that riveting sequence on Canto Bight.
 

Thrawn

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I don’t think so. As I said there is a vocal group of angry Star Wars fans who have taken to social media and posted their contempt for this movie. Or should we believe that your average film goer is going to take the time to post a seething review for a movie they really couldn’t give a rats about in the first place
How are you so sure it's just a vocal minority when the negativity is pretty much everywhere online you look, and ticket sales have actually dropped very sharply compared to the other films (meaning a lot of people aren't watching them twice/thrice/etc)?

Sites such as cinema score may use a low sample size but it is at least regulated and measured to eliminate as much bias as possible. At any rate, it is the preferred standard used by movie studios to gauge response to a film, whether you agree with it or not.

As you’ve pointed out however, it does have its glitches (though I do remember TPM on release was met very positively by fans, the critics less so. For what it’s worth, I myself rate it highest of all the prequels, which isn’t saying much. But I digress)
It's still too small a sample size to have a definite answer. TPM was universally reviled, if social media and smartphones existed back then it would be a lot, lot worse than it is now.

It’s absurd to claim social media has any kind of worth to accurately measure the response or reception to a movie, particularly something as loved a the Star Wars movies.
Why is it absurd when it's practically the only thing we really have to measure it? It's not only social media, it's in comment sections of plenty of news sites that allow comments. Even local cinema audience reviews, too... though that wouldn't be as telling due to how random it is from cinema to cinema.

Yes please do because pretty much everything you’ve mentioned is completely subjective and to many others, including reviewers, are non issues.
Subjective or not, it's why we're here, no?

Other major issues that are mentioned are the disjoint from the other movie, the lack of world-building and the lack of character development. Take Finn for example, in the last movie he has great chemistry with Rey and Poe, more time is devoted to his story (a hero's journey) and at the very least had an interesting arc to follow. In this movie? He waddles around and wastes most of his time, and when it was really his turn to put a stamp on his character (and the movie), it was denied by some of the most anti-climatic stuff I've seen in Star Wars. These aren't non-issues, these are important points that make people care more about the next movie.

I will admit though, I did have a fanboi issue on one thing - Luke kicking arse. The scene was set for it, in the cinema I was all "ohh shit, he's gonna kick some arse, this is going to be a Darth Vader Rogue One moment". And I'm sure the vast majority of people deeply wanted that, too. All that excitement though, dissipated... it would have had the potential to be one of the most epic scenes in Star Wars history, nay, cinematic history. Goddamnit, I was really angry by that.

I myself am bewildered by the whole Holdo not telling her plans criticism?
Because it was dumb, from a theatrical standpoint it was a complete waste of time as it made no sense at all.

Yes the Luke argument is valid, but it’s also subjective. I like that this twist has added a layer of complexity to Luke that wasn’t there in the OT and lack of emotional reaction to Luke’s death ... are you serious? I was welling up and Luke is probably my least favourite of the big three. Rey and Leia both acknowledged it and the scene of him just watching that sun set. That’s heart and emotion right there
I know you would've been emotional, but what I'm saying is that the characters weren't emotional enough. A little more work should have been put into it, to convey more sadness. Like in ANH, when Obi-Wan's death happen he yells out in shock has to be pulled away, then the scene where he's sitting there all sad and is being consoled. That wasn't there in this movie for such a big character dying. Perhaps an acting issue, but I think it would have been handled better.

Also, just some advice. I’d avoid using the term ‘Mary Sue’ if you want to be taken seriously. It’s a lazy tag that is being used incorrectly and carries gender specific baggage, whether you intend it to or not
Why wouldn't I be? She is a Mary Sue, it defines her pretty well. And since there's a male equivalent to this, it has nothing to do with "gender baggage" (please don't turn this into a sexist theme).

Well, not necessarily. It’s like saying people who go and see a spider man movie are Spider-Man fans. I’ve seen them but I’d hardly classify myself as a fan.
Most being the key word here. I haven't seen the Spiderman films at all because I'm not interested in him, never was. You don't have to be reading the comics to be a fan. Star Wars is a special case here, as the fandom is pretty much the backbone of Disney's earning power here. Who is going to buy all the novels, toys, etc that comes from these films? Star Wars fans, for the most part.

Star Wars films are f****** blockbusters and by definition are intended to be seen by as many people as possible - and they do because they’re good, fun, space adventures that teach us a little about ourselves, our world but most of all send us to a galaxy far, far away for two hours. When the movie is over most people leave and get on with their lives
Sure, but Disney shouldn't alienate a large portion of the fanbase. Even if the film is successful and the next one will be, they could've made a lot more if they went about it differently. All those multiple screenings... like several, the diehards in the fandom do this for Star Wars movies generally. I don't think they'll be doing it for TLJ, and it's recent drop gives us a hint of that. Sure, it'll make a shitload in the box office, but it could've made a lot more. Disney shouldn't underestimate the pulling power of its own fanbase. I don't know what their internal projections are, but if it turns below par, Rian Johnson isn't going to direct any Star Wars movie.

Leaving the idiot fans like us to post endless pages of commentary, analysis, vitriol and ecstasy over whether a Porg is migratory.
That's half the fun of it though, isn't it? ;)
 
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Thrawn

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These guys will tell you what's what:

Right, so only that review matters but the horde of others that not only pot it, but offer some balance (like what was good with the movie) do not?

LOL.

Yeah, ok mate.

Ironic thing is, that despite the calls of fanboy for people who pointed out what was wrong with the film, you certainly have a hard time accepting them. Almost as if since it's Star Wars, it can't be a bad film, it's gotta be great because it's Star Wars. Wouldn't be surprised if you loved Episode I and Jar Jar's poopy comment.
 

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JackOutback

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How are you so sure it's just a vocal minority when the negativity is pretty much everywhere online you look, and ticket sales have actually dropped very sharply compared to the other films (meaning a lot of people aren't watching them twice/thrice/etc)?


It's still too small a sample size to have a definite answer. TPM was universally reviled, if social media and smartphones existed back then it would be a lot, lot worse than it is now.


Why is it absurd when it's practically the only thing we really have to measure it? It's not only social media, it's in comment sections of plenty of news sites that allow comments. Even local cinema audience reviews, too... though that wouldn't be as telling due to how random it is from cinema to cinema.


Subjective or not, it's why we're here, no?

Other major issues that are mentioned are the disjoint from the other movie, the lack of world-building and the lack of character development. Take Finn for example, in the last movie he has great chemistry with Rey and Poe, more time is devoted to his story (a hero's journey) and at the very least had an interesting arc to follow. In this movie? He waddles around and wastes most of his time, and when it was really his turn to put a stamp on his character (and the movie), it was denied by some of the most anti-climatic stuff I've seen in Star Wars. These aren't non-issues, these are important points that make people care more about the next movie.

I will admit though, I did have a fanboi issue on one thing - Luke kicking arse. The scene was set for it, in the cinema I was all "ohh shit, he's gonna kick some arse, this is going to be a Darth Vader Rogue One moment". And I'm sure the vast majority of people deeply wanted that, too. All that excitement though, dissipated... it would have had the potential to be one of the most epic scenes in Star Wars history, nay, cinematic history. Goddamnit, I was really angry by that.


Because it was dumb, from a theatrical standpoint it was a complete waste of time as it made no sense at all.


I know you would've been emotional, but what I'm saying is that the characters weren't emotional enough. A little more work should have been put into it, to convey more sadness. Like in ANH, when Obi-Wan's death happen he yells out in shock has to be pulled away, then the scene where he's sitting there all sad and is being consoled. That wasn't there in this movie for such a big character dying. Perhaps an acting issue, but I think it would have been handled better.


Why wouldn't I be? She is a Mary Sue, it defines her pretty well. And since there's a male equivalent to this, it has nothing to do with "gender baggage" (please don't turn this into a sexist theme).


Most being the key word here. I haven't seen the Spiderman films at all because I'm not interested in him, never was. You don't have to be reading the comics to be a fan. Star Wars is a special case here, as the fandom is pretty much the backbone of Disney's earning power here. Who is going to buy all the novels, toys, etc that comes from these films? Star Wars fans, for the most part.


Sure, but Disney shouldn't alienate a large portion of the fanbase. Even if the film is successful and the next one will be, they could've made a lot more if they went about it differently. All those multiple screenings... like several, the diehards in the fandom do this for Star Wars movies generally. I don't think they'll be doing it for TLJ, and it's recent drop gives us a hint of that. Sure, it'll make a shitload in the box office, but it could've made a lot more. Disney shouldn't underestimate the pulling power of its own fanbase. I don't know what their internal projections are, but if it turns below par, Rian Johnson isn't going to direct any Star Wars movie.


That's half the fun of it though, isn't it? ;)
The sharp sales drop was entirely misread by some. As pointed out in most of the articles, the placement of Christmas Day was likely to be a factor. Sure enough, it roared back with a $100m weekend and is back on track to meet its initial expectations.

As for social media, it's a megaphone for the disgruntled. People don't go on endlessly about a film they enjoyed but we sure do see people rage incessantly when they don't. Social media allows negativity to take a greater hold.

As for who will buy their associated products if a few (or even a lot of) hardcore fans walk away? Disney would make a ton more money off of toys and Lego bought by millions of kids than they ever would from the hardcore fans like us buying books. Even if I hated TLJ, I'd still be buying my kid Lego because he loves Star Wars and is too young to have even seen TLJ.
 

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3rd visit today, apart from the casino, it really does appeal to me and has got better every time. An earlier comment about watching every part of the screen made it that much more enjoyable today.
 

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As for social media, it's a megaphone for the disgruntled. People don't go on endlessly about a film they enjoyed but we sure do see people rage incessantly when they don't. Social media allows negativity to take a greater hold.

.
As is this thread quite heavily now. even old mate who threatened to leave is like a dog returning to his own vomit regularly.
 
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The SJW stuff is responsible for that riveting sequence on Canto Bight.
I saw this reviewer arguing how the OT did politics tastefully cause the Empire were meant to be like the Nazis and everyone knows Nazis are bad. Right, cause people are so divided on animal cruelty, child slavery and war profiteering; we don't know if they're bad or not. Hahaha. Now, I say this as someone who would've cut Canto Bight, but have a ****in' whinge you flogs getting your knickers in a knot over the political stuff. It's not like he raised divisive issues.
 

weevil

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Because it was dumb, from a theatrical standpoint it was a complete waste of time as it made no sense at all.
I think that is overstated. I think in the real world her behaviour would be exactly what the vast majority of military leaders would do.

It is distinctly different to behaviour in the usual Star Wars universe. I don't think SW has previously had anywhere near that sort of level of personal complexity between characters on the same side.
 

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The sharp sales drop was entirely misread by some. As pointed out in most of the articles, the placement of Christmas Day was likely to be a factor. Sure enough, it roared back with a $100m weekend and is back on track to meet its initial expectations.

As for social media, it's a megaphone for the disgruntled. People don't go on endlessly about a film they enjoyed but we sure do see people rage incessantly when they don't. Social media allows negativity to take a greater hold.

As for who will buy their associated products if a few (or even a lot of) hardcore fans walk away? Disney would make a ton more money off of toys and Levi bought by millions of kids than they ever would from the hardcore fans like us buying books. Even if I hated TLJ, I'd still be buying my kid Lego because he loves Star Wars and is too young to have even seen TLJ.
More spin. The Force Awakens and Rogue One were all released roughly a week and a bit before Christmas. They did not fall as sharply, according to Forbes. Time will tell if it meets expectations, then again, we don't have Disney's internal projections.

It's more than just social media, as I already explained. And even then, we don't have a better gauge. No Star Wars movie has been this controversial since the prequels, so dismissing what's being said everywhere is just being disingenuous.

Do you have a breakdown of those profits? Because you seem to be forgetting that there are plenty of adults who not only see the movies over and over again, but also buy a shitload of merchandise too. Collector's items, models, lego... all the way down to small stuff like mugs. There's a shitload of such people with the money to burn on the even more tacky stuff.
 

weevil

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3rd visit today, apart from the casino, it really does appeal to me and has got better every time. An earlier comment about watching every part of the screen made it that much more enjoyable today.
Yeah, I've seen it three times and have liked it better each time too. Was pretty much on the fence at first but despite it's issues, it's clearly my favourite of the new films now.
 

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Right, so only that review matters but the horde of others that not only pot it, but offer some balance (like what was good with the movie) do not?

LOL.

Yeah, ok mate.

Ironic thing is, that despite the calls of fanboy for people who pointed out what was wrong with the film, you certainly have a hard time accepting them. Almost as if since it's Star Wars, it can't be a bad film, it's gotta be great because it's Star Wars. Wouldn't be surprised if you loved Episode I and Jar Jar's poopy comment.
Episode 1 was shit. Episode 2 was worse.

Look, every film has issues. But if you can't see that this is a great film, you have them too. It may not be what you wanted in terms of where you thought the story was going to go, but once you stop expecting plot developments (I think this will/should happen) and start anticipating (I wonder what will happen next?), you'll enjoy it far more for what it is.

The first time I saw it, I was exactly like you. I posted that it was absolute garbage and that Johnson had no idea about Star Wars.

But then I started to think about it. About why things happened the way they did. About what the theme of the movie was. And I realised that Johnson was making a statement about our society and what we value. So I thought 'I'll give it another shot, and this time, I won't go there expecting the themes of the OT'.

And that's when I realised that it's better than Empire. Because it's theme is more applicable to today's audiences.

The movie we need. Not the movie we want.
 

Lethality

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I saw this reviewer arguing how the OT did politics tastefully cause the Empire were meant to be like the Nazis and everyone knows Nazis are bad. Right, cause people are so divided on animal cruelty, child slavery and war profiteering; we don't know if they're bad or not. Hahaha. Now, I say this as someone who would've cut Canto Bight, but have a ****in' whinge you flogs getting your knickers in a knot over the political stuff. It's not like he raised divisive issues.
People want to see good guys fighting the Empire though, good vs evil, it's within the context of the Star Wars story. They didn't go and save the whales or whatever.
 

weevil

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And that's when I realised that it's better than Empire. Because it's theme is more applicable to today's audiences.
Wow, that's a massive call.

I totally understand why people don't like the film. I really like it, but I don't think those people are wrong for not liking it.

It's different, it's deliberately smashing up lots of the old lore. It's just not going to be some people's thing.

Needs to be said again that Empire was not spectacularly successful with the fans, the critics or at the box office at first. Took time for people to appreciate it.
 

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Look, every film has issues. But if you can't see that this is a great film, you have them too. It may not be what you wanted in terms of where you thought the story was going to go, but once you stop expecting plot developments (I think this will/should happen) and start anticipating (I wonder what will happen next?), you'll enjoy it far more for what it is.

The first time I saw it, I was exactly like you. I posted that it was absolute garbage and that Johnson had no idea about Star Wars.

But then I started to think about it. About why things happened the way they did. About what the theme of the movie was. And I realised that Johnson was making a statement about our society and what we value. So I thought 'I'll give it another shot, and this time, I won't go there expecting the themes of the OT'.

And that's when I realised that it's better than Empire. Because it's theme is more applicable to today's audiences.

The movie we need. Not the movie we want.
So basically what you're saying is that he created this movie the way he did to push a social or political message?

It's reasons like that why I don't see it as a great film, as well with the other gaping issues that have been explained for the nth time. You're just underplaying them. If I have to see a movie for the second or third or fourth time to force myself to like it, chances are it's a shit film to begin with.

If you like it, more power to you. But it is not better than the Empire Strikes Back. You're looking at some underlying, hidden message, making it sound all intellectual when it either isn't there or shouldn't be) Yet the people canning this film are overthinking it? FMD, it's Star Wars, not Forrest Gump. Even if social or political commentary is there, it distracts from the film. A movie like Star Wars is great to escape from the daily grind, I appreciate it not having political or current real-life events shoved in my face to detract from that experience.
 
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